Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith
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[*=left]The Order of Salvation
“And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified” (v. 30).
- Romans 8:29-30
In theology, we speak of the ordo salutis and the historia salutis. The historia salutis is the history of salvation, and most of the Bible is concerned with it. When we do theology from the perspective of the historia salutis, we consider what Christ our Head has done and what He has been given, and then we consider what we as members of Him participate in. He suffered and was glorified, and in union with Him so have we. He was raised, ascended to heaven, and sits enthroned; in union with Him we have these privileges in essence now, and look forward to their fulness in the world to come. He judges all men, and we in union with Him will also judge the world. This is the way theology is done in terms of the historia salutis.
The ordo salutis is the order of salvation. This focuses on the acts of God and the response of the individual in salvation. God calls us, produces regeneration in us, so that we respond with repentance, faith, and obedience. Behind the divine call is God’s electing decree. Theordo salutis is not concerned with a temporal sequence of events, but with a logical order.
Paul provides a condensed form of the ordo salutis in Romans 8:29–30. He tells us that God foreknew certain people and predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His Son. Since God exists in eternity, foreknowledge and predestination are not sequential actions on His part, but logical aspects of His decree. Romans 8:30 says that God called these people to His kingdom, and that those who are called are justified. Since we are justified by faith, we can insert faith between calling and justification. In fact, God’s inward call produces regeneration in us, which causes us to cry out in repentance and faith, so that we are justified.
There is no time sequence in this, as if we could be called for a while before we are regenerated, and then live regenerated without having repented, and then we could repent but not turn to Christ, and then finally come to justifying faith. No, they are all logical steps in the same event. When God calls us we are immediately regenerated, and we turn from sin to God in one action, which justifies us. And those who are justified are immediately glorified in the sense of being adopted as children of God.
Coram Deo
The value of ordo salutis theology is that it enables us to see clearly that it is God who saves, freeing us from the sinful tendency to take some credit for our own salvation. We do not proclaim, “I found it,” but, “He found me.” Rejoice that it is God who is the author and finisher of your faith.
Passages for Further Study
1 Corinthians 4:7
Ephesians 1:3–11; 2:8–10
2 Thessalonians 2:13
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/order-salvation/
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Those of his ilk? 
Do you mean men who are working out their salvation with fear and trembling and who do not yet understand everything and so they are discussing it and talking it through?
He has seen something that disturbed him and didn't seem quite right. It's true that he could have begun in a more open way to begin a discussion, and a way that had the humility to know that there might be something he was not seeing instead of being so certain he was seeing everything perfectly clearly, but...that's something that comes more and more, so we can bear with it just as others kindly have borne with us in the past!
Spiritually speaking, we've all had a snotty, know-it-all phase.
And honestly, there is a...template? that bible discussion forum uses and that we have mostly accepted, that isn't the best template. It's like...a debate template, when we should be using an open discussion template. In his defense, he was sort of using what appears to be the accepted template when a better template would be something like...here is what I'm not grasping about Calvinism or what does not make sense to me about Calvinism...
Do you mean men who are working out their salvation with fear and trembling and who do not yet understand everything and so they are discussing it and talking it through?
He has seen something that disturbed him and didn't seem quite right. It's true that he could have begun in a more open way to begin a discussion, and a way that had the humility to know that there might be something he was not seeing instead of being so certain he was seeing everything perfectly clearly, but...that's something that comes more and more, so we can bear with it just as others kindly have borne with us in the past!
Spiritually speaking, we've all had a snotty, know-it-all phase.
And honestly, there is a...template? that bible discussion forum uses and that we have mostly accepted, that isn't the best template. It's like...a debate template, when we should be using an open discussion template. In his defense, he was sort of using what appears to be the accepted template when a better template would be something like...here is what I'm not grasping about Calvinism or what does not make sense to me about Calvinism...
Way the angst? Again, the very moment Abraham believed God, it was credited to him for righteousness.[Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3 & James 2:23]
It was not before Abraham believed it was credited to him for righteousness.
It was not days after he believed, or even seconds after he believed, it was credited to him for righteousness.
It was when he believed, the very moment in his life he believed God, it was credited to him for righteousness.
It was not before Abraham believed it was credited to him for righteousness.
It was not days after he believed, or even seconds after he believed, it was credited to him for righteousness.
It was when he believed, the very moment in his life he believed God, it was credited to him for righteousness.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! So, showing that you're in error, that you bear false witness about others beliefs is a "personal attack?"
I'd dare guess that you're simply someone who has returned to CC and took back right off where you left off -- attacking others, namely the Reformed brothers and sisters. I see this happen all the time. It is always interesting how the new person goes right into doing this soon after they join.
Now, care to own up to your errors like a man so we can have dialog, or are you going to continue to be in repeat cycle ad infinitum?
Let's start off with you don't understand the doctrine of regeneration, but carry on as if you did showing yourself to be in error. Fair enough, or stay in your repeat cycle of error? If you're ready to own up, I'll talk to you, if not, get your last word in.
I'd dare guess that you're simply someone who has returned to CC and took back right off where you left off -- attacking others, namely the Reformed brothers and sisters. I see this happen all the time. It is always interesting how the new person goes right into doing this soon after they join.
Now, care to own up to your errors like a man so we can have dialog, or are you going to continue to be in repeat cycle ad infinitum?
Let's start off with you don't understand the doctrine of regeneration, but carry on as if you did showing yourself to be in error. Fair enough, or stay in your repeat cycle of error? If you're ready to own up, I'll talk to you, if not, get your last word in.
Those of his ilk?
Do you mean men who are working out their salvation with fear and trembling and who do not yet understand everything and so they are discussing it and talking it through?
He has seen something that disturbed him and didn't seem quite right. It's true that he could have begun in a more open way to begin a discussion, and a way that had the humility to know that there might be something he was not seeing instead of being so certain he was seeing everything perfectly clearly, but...that's something that comes more and more, so we can bear with it just as others kindly have borne with us in the past!
Spiritually speaking, we've all had a snotty, know-it-all phase.
And honestly, there is a...template? that bible discussion forum uses and that we have mostly accepted, that isn't the best template. It's like...a debate template, when we should be using an open discussion template. In his defense, he was sort of using what appears to be the accepted template when a better template would be something like...here is what I'm not grasping about Calvinism or what does not make sense to me about Calvinism...
Do you mean men who are working out their salvation with fear and trembling and who do not yet understand everything and so they are discussing it and talking it through?
He has seen something that disturbed him and didn't seem quite right. It's true that he could have begun in a more open way to begin a discussion, and a way that had the humility to know that there might be something he was not seeing instead of being so certain he was seeing everything perfectly clearly, but...that's something that comes more and more, so we can bear with it just as others kindly have borne with us in the past!
Spiritually speaking, we've all had a snotty, know-it-all phase.
And honestly, there is a...template? that bible discussion forum uses and that we have mostly accepted, that isn't the best template. It's like...a debate template, when we should be using an open discussion template. In his defense, he was sort of using what appears to be the accepted template when a better template would be something like...here is what I'm not grasping about Calvinism or what does not make sense to me about Calvinism...
If the prophet knew and God didn't, then he knew something God didn't.
No born again believer is devoid of faith. No one who has faith is devoid of the new birth. You can not have one without the other. That's why they happen together.
The ordo salutis is a logical order if salvation, as it breaks it down into how God saves a sinner. It helps us to see how its all of God and none of man.
The ordo salutis is a logical order if salvation, as it breaks it down into how God saves a sinner. It helps us to see how its all of God and none of man.
Well, that may have had a part in it, but when you put into context just how brutal the Assyrians were, maybe even to Jonah's relatives, when God used them to take over the Northern Kingdom, you can begin to understand that Jonah desired to have God destroy them.
Imagine today, God asking someone, who may have had a loved one tortured and murdered by ISIS, to go into the heart of ISIS territory, and preach to them to repent, KNOWING THAT THEY WOULD, AND GOD WOULD HAVE MERCY ON THEM.
You kinda sympathize with Jonah not lovin that task, AND you might wanna try and go the opposite way God wants you to.
Imagine today, God asking someone, who may have had a loved one tortured and murdered by ISIS, to go into the heart of ISIS territory, and preach to them to repent, KNOWING THAT THEY WOULD, AND GOD WOULD HAVE MERCY ON THEM.
You kinda sympathize with Jonah not lovin that task, AND you might wanna try and go the opposite way God wants you to.
We live by the faith of God it comes from hearing His word it works in us to both will and do His good pleasure .as always he must do the first works as a work of his faith. or we end up as a hand ful of dust without any spirt life.
Dead bodies without a spirit cannot work to belive the good will of another.
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Faith is a living work.
If a person desires to attribute Christ's work of faith as the mutual faith that worked in Abraham and rehab to Abraham and Rehab they would have something to boast of. But men dead in their trespasses and sins can do nothing they have no spirit life to make it possible. Both Abraham and Rehab where both justified by the work of Christ faith that worked in them. It is why is is imputed and not of their own self as in self righteous.
Note... (purple in parenthesis) my comment to help aid the focus on the right person of faith. not accrediting it to Abraham or Rehab and commit blasphemy but the mutual faith of Christ that works in all believers.
Was not Abraham our father justified by (Christ's) works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (the parable)
Seest thou how faith (Christ's) wrought with his (Christ's)works, and by (Christ's)works was (Christ's)faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.am 2:21
Let go, let God have his rightful place in us (not of us)
An imputed righteousness below. Remember we work out the free gift,according to His faith.And not work to gain according to the imagination of our heart.. (the atheist source of faith, the unseen.)
Do not be one the murmurers they have their reward ... their own disputing , crucifying Christ again and again every time they deny him in unbelief (No faith)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.For it is Godwhich worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Phi 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:Phi 2:12
Dead bodies without a spirit cannot work to belive the good will of another.
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Faith is a living work.
If a person desires to attribute Christ's work of faith as the mutual faith that worked in Abraham and rehab to Abraham and Rehab they would have something to boast of. But men dead in their trespasses and sins can do nothing they have no spirit life to make it possible. Both Abraham and Rehab where both justified by the work of Christ faith that worked in them. It is why is is imputed and not of their own self as in self righteous.
Note... (purple in parenthesis) my comment to help aid the focus on the right person of faith. not accrediting it to Abraham or Rehab and commit blasphemy but the mutual faith of Christ that works in all believers.
Was not Abraham our father justified by (Christ's) works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (the parable)
Seest thou how faith (Christ's) wrought with his (Christ's)works, and by (Christ's)works was (Christ's)faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.am 2:21
Let go, let God have his rightful place in us (not of us)
An imputed righteousness below. Remember we work out the free gift,according to His faith.And not work to gain according to the imagination of our heart.. (the atheist source of faith, the unseen.)
Do not be one the murmurers they have their reward ... their own disputing , crucifying Christ again and again every time they deny him in unbelief (No faith)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.For it is Godwhich worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Phi 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:Phi 2:12
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Well...we can give him some benefit of the doubt and think that he may have been trying to fit in by using what appears to be the accepted template. You have to admit it's a sort of ugly template and it's much nicer to deeply discuss without it!
Hey, is that Hogans Heroes at the bottom of your post...?? I remember that show. I always wanted to watch cartoons and left the room when dad put that show on! Was it good?
Hey, is that Hogans Heroes at the bottom of your post...?? I remember that show. I always wanted to watch cartoons and left the room when dad put that show on! Was it good?