Can we be saved in all three tenses ? Past, present, and future.

[Grace777x70]

There are 2 possibilities with this scripture about "brethren"...it doesn't say "brothers and sisters" as has been quoted...

The scripture actually says.."My brethren" which is a term used all over the NT for Jews talking about themselves. Paul himself used it many times it acts when talking to non-believing Jews.

.. James was written to the 12 tribes of Israel scattered abroad. In every assembly of Jews there would be both non-believing in Christ and believing Jews. This letter would have been written to all Jews.

The other aspect is that if one goes out and drinks and then drives and gets killed..he loses his soul ( life ). Every time in the scriptures that it mentions something happens to the soul - it doesn't mean they lost their salvation. Soul is used many times as the life..as in this one about the Lord being a child.

Matthew 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life. ( this is the exact same word in greek for James usage of in 5:2o )


James 5:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,

Again, that sealing is contingent upon continuing in faith. I guarantee, if anyone who is in Christ stops having faith and goes back into willfully living according to the sinful nature, that person is accumulating sin and is on their way to death.

"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." (James 5:18)

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

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[TD="class: post, colspan: 2"]Heres three, I quoted one earlier but I added the verse that was behind it

1 John 2:24
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning.
If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you,
ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1 John 2:25
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.[/TD]
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So it speaks letting that abide in you (which you have heard) to remain in the Son and in the Father, and shows also that he who abides not in the doctrine of Christ has not God.

He that abides has both the Father and the Son.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Jesus said, But you do not believe (My Father's works) because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and none shall pluck them from My hand. My Father who gave them to Me is greater than all, and no one IS ABLE to pluck them out of the Father's hand. I and my Father are one (John 10.27-30).

In other words Jesus says we CANNOT BECOME unplugged, it is impossible (without adding to the text)

That's what's called reading into the text. It doesn't say that. It says that no one is able to remove a sheep out of the father's hand. Following the shepherd is an act of the will, so those who will to no longer follow the shepherd can indeed leave the father's hand.

 

[PeterJens]

There are 2 possibilities with this scripture

The problem of deriving theology from single words is it is meaningless and a denial of concepts or principles.
If we are chosen, and freely choose to follow, we can equally freely choose to walk away. If we could not walk away then it would not be choice.

If you believe there is no choice involved then truly there is no falling away.

Whichever way you interpret the concepts, you will read in what you want to be there.

When we are talking about choice in Christ, there is a problem. As sinners we are slaves to sin, so therefore cannot choose salvation because we are bound. Even the gift of faith is a gift, that comes to us, and without this we would not walk.

The other problem is wherever we are we will self justify our position and be happy with it, because that is human nature.

The issue I have with accepting failure to walk in righteousness, is it leads to heresy and denial of Christs victory. It is powered by peoples failure in being legalists not realising Jesus's love empowers victory not the law. But you do not hear that from these preachers which is why I have no faith in their theology.

 

[PeterJens]

[video=youtube;KVQ1t5i058Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]

Very informative video. I was unaware of this connection sexual desire to original sin.
I can see how this line of logic is easy to make, if your life is totally overwhelmed by lust and desire, which is a complex issue.

 

[Chuckt]

We are saved by believing what we heard, and must continue in that same belief. If you turn away from "what you heard" then you have become unplugged. Jesus said, whoever would come after me must take their cross daily, which is continuance in faith. Unless you remain faithful in Christ you cannot be saved. Salvation is a free gift and just like any gift, it has to be received.

If it is received then there is no reason you should take salvation or the gift away. Romans 5:15,16 and 18 call salvation a free gift so when you say that a Christian has to maintain the gift then it is no longer free and to not believe these verses is to doubt God's words which is sin so changing the doctrine to align with catholic doctrine is sin. Further when you trust in yourself instead of Christ's gift then grace is no more grace to be saved with so you lose salvation by working for salvation. (Romans 11:6)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are saved by believing what we heard, and must continue in that same belief. If you turn away from "what you heard" then you have become unplugged. Jesus said, whoever would come after me must take their cross daily, which is continuance in faith. Unless you remain faithful in Christ you cannot be saved. Salvation is a free gift and just like any gift, it has to be received.

Thats works, thats not grace..

You can pick up your cross every day from now till you die, you will still not deserve to spend on day in heaven with the lord. let alone eternity.

Belief will never save anyone either even demons believe It takes pure faith, and faith will never fail, it may get small, but even faith of a mustard seed can move mountains..

 

[RobbyEarl]

Faith talking about faith, you don't need a whole lot, just use what you got. Hmm Hmm just use what you got I said faith talking bout faith

 

[valiant]

That's what's called reading into the text. It doesn't say that. It says that no one is able to remove a sheep out of the father's hand. Following the shepherd is an act of the will, so those who will to no longer follow the shepherd can indeed leave the father's hand.

LOL if no one can remove a sheep from the Father's hand, that sheep must be absolutely safe. Following the shepherd is not an act of will. It is an automatic response.

 

[valiant]

The problem of deriving theology from single words is it is meaningless and a denial of concepts or principles.
If we are chosen, and freely choose to follow, we can equally freely choose to walk away. If we could not walk away then it would not be choice.

If you believe there is no choice involved then truly there is no falling away.

Whichever way you interpret the concepts, you will read in what you want to be there.

When we are talking about choice in Christ, there is a problem. As sinners we are slaves to sin, so therefore cannot choose salvation because we are bound. Even the gift of faith is a gift, that comes to us, and without this we would not walk.

The other problem is wherever we are we will self justify our position and be happy with it, because that is human nature.

The issue I have with accepting failure to walk in righteousness, is it leads to heresy and denial of Christs victory. It is powered by peoples failure in being legalists not realising Jesus's love empowers victory not the law. But you do not hear that from these preachers which is why I have no faith in their theology.

LOL you ARE a legalist. You show it when you talk about walking In righteousness of your own free will. You mix up choice with free will. God's word says,

'All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and him who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out. For I am come down from Heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him Who sent
Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the Last Day,' (John 6.37-39)


But you do not believe (My Father's works) because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and none shall pluck them from My hand. My Father who gave them to Me is greater than all, and no one IS ABLE to pluck them out of the Father's hand. I and my Father are one (John 10.27-30).


All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being accounted as righteous by His grace FREELY through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith by His blood (Rom 3,23-25).


'Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come behind in no gift, waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,who will also confirm you unto the end, that you might be unreproveable in the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ.' (1 Corinth 1.6-8). (and this the corinthian church!)


'By grace you are saved, through faith, and that (gracious act) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God and not of doings, lest any man should boast, for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them' (Eph 2.8-10).


'Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ' (Phil 2.6).


'Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our doings, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but now has been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel (2 Tim 1.9).


I am not ashamed, for I know Him Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed to Him against that Day (2 Tim 1.12).


But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and His love towards man appeared, not by works done in righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which He poured out upon us richly through Christ Jesus our Saviour, that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3.4-7).


Wherein God, being minded to show more abundantly unto the heirs of promise the immutability of His Counsel, interposed with an oath, that by two immutable things in which it is impossible for God to lie we may have a strong encouragement who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us, which we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and entering into that within the veil, whither as a forerunner Jesus entered for us, having become a High Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedek (Heb 7.7-20).


Wherefore He is able to save to the uttermost them that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them (Heb 7.25).


He has perfected for ever those who are being sanctified (Heb 10.14)


HE IS KEEPING US.

 

[RobbyEarl]

Y'all make me raff

 

[Complete_In_Him]

We are saved by grace. It's called 'the gospel of the grace of God" for a reason. This is what we are to believe, "the gospel of our salvation"... what did or do devils/demons believe??? There is no gospel or salvation available to devils?!

This is what we are to trust in, the "faith of Christ", for the forgiveness of all our sins and the free gift of righteousness.

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by the faith of Christ

20 I live by the faith of the Son of God

16 ... even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

There is a doctrine for the church the body of Christ concerning how we are begotten and how it is we have access to the life of God.

And what is the fellowship of the mystery, the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose... "we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him." Eph 3:9-12 kjv

 

[Complete_In_Him]

13*If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

When it comes to the spirit of holiness, the holy Spirit of promise that we receive and are sealed with, as the church the body of Christ, we are given an identity before God and a position in the household of God, with an inheritance in the "kingdom of His dear Son"

 

[Chuckt]

So, you believe that having faith is not a requirement for salvation? I can promise you, that is not a catholic doctrine, but is the word of God, for without faith it is impossible to please him. Salvation is dependent upon having faith in Jesus Christ. No faith, no salvation. Whoever has the Son has life, whoever does not have the Son does not have life. What, do you think that person can stop having faith after he comes to Christ? Please consider the following:

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[SUP]a[/SUP] so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Therefore, the Vine is symbolic for Christ and believers are the branches. Any branch that does not remain in him cannot bear fruit ad is like a branch that withers away and are thrown into the fire. Does that sound like a catholic doctrine to you or do you ignore scripture?

One of the things the writer here notes from comparing the two sets of verses is the axe is laid at the root of the tree and not the actual branches:

Note something very important here. Jesus did not say that you will be a branch that will be thrown away, he says the person who does not abide will be thrown away. Dear friends, let us look at the person in verse 6 he does not abide. The person in verse 2 is in him! He is the one abiding in Jesus. Please note abiding carries a very different meaning in gardener’s terms. Paul says we are grafted into Christ.
Let me explain what it means.
First a “sick” branch is “cut-off” from a sick tree. Then, a part of the “good and healthy” tree is cut to allow the sick tree, so that the “sick” branch may be inserted into the “good” tree. The “good” tree is “wounded” for the sake of the “sick” branch. The “sick” branch is inserted into the “wounds” of the “good” tree. Then the “sick” branch is joint together and left for days together by wrapping the “wound” of the good tree together. While they are held together, the “sick” branch receives life, food and strength from the “wounds” of the “good tree”. After sometime, the gardener removes the wrapping and discover that the “sick” branch and the “good” tree have become one.

https://hischarisisenough.wordpress...vation-11-be-cut-off-as-a-worthless-branch-4/

 

[Chuckt]

Re: Hebrews 6:4 does not mean you can lose your salvation

=====================================================

Chuckt, your definition of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is also incorrect. According to the scripture above, the Jews committed blasphemy against the Spirit by claiming that Jesus was driving out demons by the prince of demons. Therefore, since he was driving them out by the Holy Spirit, they were calling the Holy Spirit unclean. That is the only definition of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Those who reject Christ are merely remaining in the same state that they have always been in, which is unreconciled to God, ergo, they are still in their sins. Nowhere in scripture is blasphemy against the Spirit defined as saying "no" to Jesus. In fact regarding this, in the scripture above, Jesus said, "if anyone speaks against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven him." In order for a person to commit blasphemy against the Spirit, one would have to make the same exact claim that the Jews did by calling the Holy Spirit unclean.

Was Paul saved then?

1 Timothy 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

If Paul was guilty of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit then I have to throw out half of the New Testament so I understand the bigger picture. There are two ways to read the Bible: What does it say? And What does it mean?

 

[Chuckt]

The issue I have with accepting failure to walk in righteousness, is it leads to heresy and denial of Christs victory. It is powered by peoples failure in being legalists not realising Jesus's love empowers victory not the law. But you do not hear that from these preachers which is why I have no faith in their theology.

The problem with this view is that I've seen believers who were so messed up that it took their churches literally ten years or more to turn the believers around after they came to Christ. God works in His timetable and you are combining sanctification with justification which is a Catholic doctrine. To cut them off based on fruit is to miss a lot of things going on in their life:

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You can't see the wind in their life and maybe all they have is the rustling of the wind in their life and no fruit but you dismiss them as being not saved and as a result, you would further complicate things by giving them a false gospel.

The problem with your view is that it is Christ's victory and with God all things are possible. I'm not Jesus and I'm not Paul. Do you think you can be greater than Jesus? It is Jesus that works in them:

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

So what the spirit did was start with the wind which you cannot see and the Bible says that if you work then it is not of grace:

Romans 4:5 ¶ But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So if I am ungodly, my faith is counted for righteousness if I believe.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Salvation is grace through faith through Christ plus nothing but when you add works, you have to take away grace from the equation leaving you without salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

When you work, you are no longer trusting in Jesus because you found another way over the door into the sheepfold and you are coming in another way because you have to come by Jesus which is his death and shed blood which offers mercy so if you don't come by Jesus, those who climb up are thieves and robbers because they come up another way. It is His death that purchased your salvation and works is a denial of Jesus' work.

Nobody gets into heaven based on what they have done because their blood isn't on the door:


Exodus 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike [it] on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.


Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye [are]: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy [you], when I smite the land of Egypt.

 

[Chuckt]

Then how does GOD justify the ungodly Rom 4.7? You can argue round it but you cannot answer it.

'All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and him who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out. For I am come down from Heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him Who sent
Me. And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the Last Day,' (John 6.37-39)


argue round that too,

They expect the sinner to get right before they can come to God creating another barrier between them and going to heaven.
No where in the law of Moses did they examine the sinner before he gave a sacrifice because that would have defeated the purpose of the sinner putting his hands on the neck of an animal, feeling the animal slaughtered while their sin was transferred to the animal and coming to God by having atonement with God.

 

[Chuckt]

You asserted a judicial forensic of the "righteousness of Christ" to your account and have yet to show a single scripture which teaches that. You cannot show a scripture that teaches that because it is not taught in the Bible.

It is taught to be in the Bible so don't say it isn't taught.

Homonyms of the verb Justificare
IV. The [hebrew] verb tsayke, to which the greek dikaioun answers, and the Latin Justificare, is used in two ways in the Scriptures, Properly and Improperly. Properly the verb is forensic, put for to absolve any one in a trial, or to hold and to declare just, as opposed to the verb to condemn and to accuse, Ex. 23:7, Deut. 25:1, Prov. 17:15, Luke 18:14, Rom. 3-5. Thence apart from a trial it is used for to acknowledge and to praise one as just, and that too, either deservedly, as when it is terminated on God, in which way men are said to justify God, when they celebrate him as just, Ps. 51:4, Wisdom is said to be justifed of her children, Matt. 11:9, Luke 7:35, that is acknowledged and celebrated as such, or presumptously, as the Pharisees are said to justify themselves, Luke 16:15. Improperly it is used either ministerially, for to bring to righteousness, Dan. 12:3, where mtsdyqy seems to be exegetical of mskylym: because while the preachers of the gospel instruct and teach believers, by this very thing they justify them ministerially in the same sense in which they are said to save them, 1Tim. 4:16. Or by way of synecdeche, the antecedent being put for the consequent, for to free, Rom. 5:7, “He that is dead is justified from sin,” that is, freed. Or comparatively, Ez. 16:51-52, where on account of a comparison between the sins of Israel and Samaria, Israel is said to justify Samaria, and, the sins of Judah increasing, Judah is said to have justified Israel, Jer. 3:11, because Israel was more just than Judah, that is, her sins were fewer than the sins of Judah.

Forensic Justification by Francis Turretin | Reformed Theology Articles at Ligonier.org

 

[Chuckt]

I love God and keep His commandments, the commandments of Jesus.

The rich young ruler did the same thing and Jesus told him he lacked one thing. You are trusting in commandment keeping.

The law is spiritual and you are physical.

 

[Chuckt]

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

The law is a mirror to show you are dirty. You don't use the mirror to make yourself clean.
You're already dirty and no one can keep the whole law.
God sees your sin so if you are guilty of one point of the law, you are guilty of all:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

And you are guilty because the Bible says:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

That makes you and everyone else guilty of violating the law before God.