Can you Sin and Not Die?
- Thread starter Tommy4Christ
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Do you equate all sin with wifull rebellion against God?
Sometimes Skinsky uses the word rebellion, sometimes sin, he intrinsically links the two together
If all sin must cease before God will accept a person then the law must be upheld before God will accept a person, for sin is the trangression of the law
That is John's definition BTW not mine.
I agree, we must repent.
Sometimes Skinsky uses the word rebellion, sometimes sin, he intrinsically links the two together
If all sin must cease before God will accept a person then the law must be upheld before God will accept a person, for sin is the trangression of the law
That is John's definition BTW not mine.
I agree, we must repent.
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]c[/SUP][SUP]]
The above is the new covenant, this mirrors what Ezekiel wrote in Ezekiel 36:26&27
God has put it within our hearts to obey
When you became a Christian you wanted in your heart and mind to obey God, didn't you?
Why was that?
Because the Spirit had written the good and Holy laws of God on your heart and mind, simply put, you wanted to obey God. But tell me?
Did you wave a magic wand and all your known sin immediately ceased?
Mine did not, I do not claim that. Think of the sin that you have found hardest to have victory over. Did that vanish the monment you became a Christian? Did you never commit that sin again?
Sometimes it is good to look away from our set docrtrine to the practical reality.
The fact a person is still a sinner when they come to God is not a licence to sin, nor does it mean the convert wants an excuse to wilfully sin, God has seen to that by writing His law on their hearts and minds
What does Paul say happens when someone comes to Christ?
[/SUP]If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. [SUP]1
[/SUP][SUP]So you are seeking justification in Christ but evidently a sinner at the same time. If you got run over by a bus the day after you accept Christ into your life you are saved, and will go to be with the Lord, but you are seeking justification from being a slave to sin, and being changed from that position that leads to death, to a slave of righteousness, which leads to life. And you get from A to B if you like by following the Gospel Paul proclaimed(Rom6:16&17)
But it takes time. However, Skinski has stated more than once that sin must cease before God will accept someone. I believe he does not understand the new covenanat to make that statement. A person does not want the sin, but they see victory over sin by faith(in Christ) Rom1:5 Do you think this happens in one moment of time? In an instant?[/SUP]
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]c[/SUP][SUP]]
The above is the new covenant, this mirrors what Ezekiel wrote in Ezekiel 36:26&27
God has put it within our hearts to obey
When you became a Christian you wanted in your heart and mind to obey God, didn't you?
Why was that?
Because the Spirit had written the good and Holy laws of God on your heart and mind, simply put, you wanted to obey God. But tell me?
Did you wave a magic wand and all your known sin immediately ceased?
Mine did not, I do not claim that. Think of the sin that you have found hardest to have victory over. Did that vanish the monment you became a Christian? Did you never commit that sin again?
Sometimes it is good to look away from our set docrtrine to the practical reality.
The fact a person is still a sinner when they come to God is not a licence to sin, nor does it mean the convert wants an excuse to wilfully sin, God has seen to that by writing His law on their hearts and minds
What does Paul say happens when someone comes to Christ?
[/SUP]If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. [SUP]1
[/SUP][SUP]So you are seeking justification in Christ but evidently a sinner at the same time. If you got run over by a bus the day after you accept Christ into your life you are saved, and will go to be with the Lord, but you are seeking justification from being a slave to sin, and being changed from that position that leads to death, to a slave of righteousness, which leads to life. And you get from A to B if you like by following the Gospel Paul proclaimed(Rom6:16&17)
But it takes time. However, Skinski has stated more than once that sin must cease before God will accept someone. I believe he does not understand the new covenanat to make that statement. A person does not want the sin, but they see victory over sin by faith(in Christ) Rom1:5 Do you think this happens in one moment of time? In an instant?[/SUP]
C
Interesting. So you are saying that on our faith's course there will be pitfalls, but we must carry onward to the victor's line?
Having read numerous posts from Skinski, I believe him to be saying that the rebellion, for either the sinner or saint, must be forsaken. From my gathering, a Christian cannot walk contrary to the leading of the Spirit, that in and of itself, is walking in rebellion.
But yes, it does not happen overnight. But as long as one continues to follow God, then God is faithful to finish what He has started.
Having read numerous posts from Skinski, I believe him to be saying that the rebellion, for either the sinner or saint, must be forsaken. From my gathering, a Christian cannot walk contrary to the leading of the Spirit, that in and of itself, is walking in rebellion.
But yes, it does not happen overnight. But as long as one continues to follow God, then God is faithful to finish what He has started.
It is late in England, and forgive me but I have discussed this much of late, and I have discussed at great length with Skinsky. I do not agree with much of what he writes concerning this subject
But I will leave something with you
There is a huge difference between the sin you carry into your Christian life that you earnestly seek to be dealt with by faith in Christ, sin that may for years have entangled itself tightly around you, and the wilful deliberate sin committed once you have been set free of such sin by faith. The two must be viewed very differently. That is the practical reality, not much of(but not all) the rigid theological doctrine that in reality is most of the time never lived up to
But I will leave something with you
There is a huge difference between the sin you carry into your Christian life that you earnestly seek to be dealt with by faith in Christ, sin that may for years have entangled itself tightly around you, and the wilful deliberate sin committed once you have been set free of such sin by faith. The two must be viewed very differently. That is the practical reality, not much of(but not all) the rigid theological doctrine that in reality is most of the time never lived up to
You see Mark this is the issue, you have this belief that salvation is merely forensic while one can be "entangled in sin" and then rationalise your statement by alluding that this entanglement is a result of long practiced habit.
This is the very problem I am addressing. Modern Christianity teaches that actual "salvation" is unrelated to actually being "set free" from the "bondage of sin."
The issue is that the Bible does not teach what you are saying Mark.
You are forced to cling to Romans 7 as being the state of a Christian in bondage. Thus you believe a Christian is "carnal and sold under sin."
How can one be "carnal and sold under sin" and "set free from sin" at the same time. Only if salvation is purely forensic can this be so. This is why the Penal Substitution Model fits so well into your doctrine because Penal Substitution teaches a purely judicial exchange by which an individual enters the kingdom.
So when the Bible says this...
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
You cannot truly believe it. You believe that if a pornography addict "accepts Jesus" without forsaking that sin because he is still "entangled in that sin" and he dies IN that sin he will still go to heaven because of the "Judicial Exchange" of Penal Substitution.
Thus the heart purity in Mat 5:8 is MEANINGLESS. To you it must be a purely FORENSIC or PRETEND heart purity. An individual who is still in the bondage of his lusts and thus indulges himself in sexual perversion IS NOT pure in heart.
Look at this scripture...
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
You believe the opposite of that verse. You believe that one can be unholy but CLOAKED with the "imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ" and see the Lord. Thus to you MANIFEST holiness is completely UNRELATED to being a child of God.
Yet the Bible so clearly says this...
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
While you really believe that a child of God can be "entangled in sin" the Bible says the exact opposite.
I can quote CLEAR and PLAIN scriptures ALL DAY but you DON'T BELIEVE THEM.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
You believe one can "accept Jesus" and "still obey sin" due them being "entangled in it" but they are FORENSICALLY JUSTIFIED.
The problem with your theology is that it does not preach TRUE REPENTANCE.
Satan has managed to completely excise Biblical Repentance from the Gospel message.
Now really think about these things and be honest.
You say this...
The Bible does not say ANYWHERE that you "accept Jesus into your life and you are saved."
Read the book of Acts for they did not go around preaching "accept Jesus." They preached REPENTANCE PROVEN BY DEEDS.
Your doctrine has the Prodigal Son "ACCEPTING Jesus" IN THE PIG PEN and thus the reconciliation with God takes place whilst still actively engaged in sin.
The Bible simply does not teach what you are trying to imply it teaches and all you can do is quote scriptures like "if we find ourselves sinners while we SEEK to be justified" etc. When NONE of those scriptures are teaching that you can be reconciled to God while you are still in sin.
The whole purpose of Jesus Christ coming to this world and dying on that cross was to REDEEM US from the bondage of sin so that we could then approach God for reconciliation. It is the sinful human being who has to change in order for reconciliation to take place, it is not God bending the rules by pretending that men are righteous when they are still wicked.
This is the very problem I am addressing. Modern Christianity teaches that actual "salvation" is unrelated to actually being "set free" from the "bondage of sin."
The issue is that the Bible does not teach what you are saying Mark.
You are forced to cling to Romans 7 as being the state of a Christian in bondage. Thus you believe a Christian is "carnal and sold under sin."
How can one be "carnal and sold under sin" and "set free from sin" at the same time. Only if salvation is purely forensic can this be so. This is why the Penal Substitution Model fits so well into your doctrine because Penal Substitution teaches a purely judicial exchange by which an individual enters the kingdom.
So when the Bible says this...
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
You cannot truly believe it. You believe that if a pornography addict "accepts Jesus" without forsaking that sin because he is still "entangled in that sin" and he dies IN that sin he will still go to heaven because of the "Judicial Exchange" of Penal Substitution.
Thus the heart purity in Mat 5:8 is MEANINGLESS. To you it must be a purely FORENSIC or PRETEND heart purity. An individual who is still in the bondage of his lusts and thus indulges himself in sexual perversion IS NOT pure in heart.
Look at this scripture...
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
You believe the opposite of that verse. You believe that one can be unholy but CLOAKED with the "imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ" and see the Lord. Thus to you MANIFEST holiness is completely UNRELATED to being a child of God.
Yet the Bible so clearly says this...
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
While you really believe that a child of God can be "entangled in sin" the Bible says the exact opposite.
I can quote CLEAR and PLAIN scriptures ALL DAY but you DON'T BELIEVE THEM.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
You believe one can "accept Jesus" and "still obey sin" due them being "entangled in it" but they are FORENSICALLY JUSTIFIED.
The problem with your theology is that it does not preach TRUE REPENTANCE.
Satan has managed to completely excise Biblical Repentance from the Gospel message.
Now really think about these things and be honest.
You say this...
The Bible does not say ANYWHERE that you "accept Jesus into your life and you are saved."
Read the book of Acts for they did not go around preaching "accept Jesus." They preached REPENTANCE PROVEN BY DEEDS.
Your doctrine has the Prodigal Son "ACCEPTING Jesus" IN THE PIG PEN and thus the reconciliation with God takes place whilst still actively engaged in sin.
The Bible simply does not teach what you are trying to imply it teaches and all you can do is quote scriptures like "if we find ourselves sinners while we SEEK to be justified" etc. When NONE of those scriptures are teaching that you can be reconciled to God while you are still in sin.
The whole purpose of Jesus Christ coming to this world and dying on that cross was to REDEEM US from the bondage of sin so that we could then approach God for reconciliation. It is the sinful human being who has to change in order for reconciliation to take place, it is not God bending the rules by pretending that men are righteous when they are still wicked.
There you go again Zone jumping the gun without thinking things through. Again you ignore the specifics and formulate a strawman.
TEMPTATION IS NOT SIN.
Whether you want to call the draw of the flesh "concupiscence" or "Yetzer Ra" or "evil inclination" or the "fleshful passions and desires" is irrelevant. It is all the same thing and none of it is sin. It is temptation.
When Jesus fasted for 40 days in the wilderness he was very hungry. Satan tempted him to turn stones into bread.
Jesus most definitely had a passion in his flesh to do just that but he ruled over it.
The Bible clearly teaches that he was "tempted in ALL POINTS as we are" and it teaches that "temptation is common to man." Jesus was a man.
So all you are doing is straining at a SEMANTIC GNAT whilst you continue to IGNORE the Scripture.
Why do those who preach the doctrine of the Imputed Righteousness of Christ ignore Rom 4:12?
I'll tell you why, it CONTRADICTS their theology.
If justification is merely a forensic cloak whilst one remains defiled in their heart then the MANIFEST righteousness of 1Joh 3:10 is meaningless.
TEMPTATION IS NOT SIN.
Whether you want to call the draw of the flesh "concupiscence" or "Yetzer Ra" or "evil inclination" or the "fleshful passions and desires" is irrelevant. It is all the same thing and none of it is sin. It is temptation.
When Jesus fasted for 40 days in the wilderness he was very hungry. Satan tempted him to turn stones into bread.
Jesus most definitely had a passion in his flesh to do just that but he ruled over it.
The Bible clearly teaches that he was "tempted in ALL POINTS as we are" and it teaches that "temptation is common to man." Jesus was a man.
So all you are doing is straining at a SEMANTIC GNAT whilst you continue to IGNORE the Scripture.
Why do those who preach the doctrine of the Imputed Righteousness of Christ ignore Rom 4:12?
I'll tell you why, it CONTRADICTS their theology.
If justification is merely a forensic cloak whilst one remains defiled in their heart then the MANIFEST righteousness of 1Joh 3:10 is meaningless.
It is clear that the choice to serve God through Jesus Christ must be made.
It is even more clear that a true convert will be convicted of sin, and not comfortable in it.
A person who seeks Christ must deny him/her self. - (With all the lusts and the passions involved).
But the performance doesn't save you.
The atoning work of the Son of God with the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit conforms
the called into being chosen.
- No man comes to the Father by any other way.
- You're either in or you are out.
It is even more clear that a true convert will be convicted of sin, and not comfortable in it.
A person who seeks Christ must deny him/her self. - (With all the lusts and the passions involved).
But the performance doesn't save you.
The atoning work of the Son of God with the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit conforms
the called into being chosen.
- No man comes to the Father by any other way.
- You're either in or you are out.
RUBBISH - you said without equivocation Jesus had concupiscence
YOU choose to call it the evil inclination, then say Jesus had an evil inclination.
i don't care what you or Judaism calls it.
as usual, you love twisting words so YOU can be absolved of your own junk.
worse still, you drag the Savior through your gutter so you can bring Him down to your level - and raise yourself up to His.
after all. He was just an example right?
Romans 7:8
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
And sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind. For apart from the law sin is dead.
International Standard Version (©2012)
But sin seized the opportunity provided by this commandment and produced in me all kinds of sinful desires, since apart from the Law, sin is dead.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
(Winers Grammar, § 30, 3 N. 5); specifically, desire for what is forbidden, lust (Vulg.concupiscentia)
you SKINSKI, said without equivocation Jesus had concupiscence
YOU choose to call it the evil inclination, then say Jesus had an evil inclination.
i don't care what you or Judaism calls it.
as usual, you love twisting words so YOU can be absolved of your own junk.
worse still, you drag the Savior through your gutter so you can bring Him down to your level - and raise yourself up to His.
after all. He was just an example right?
Romans 7:8
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
And sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind. For apart from the law sin is dead.
International Standard Version (©2012)
But sin seized the opportunity provided by this commandment and produced in me all kinds of sinful desires, since apart from the Law, sin is dead.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
(Winers Grammar, § 30, 3 N. 5); specifically, desire for what is forbidden, lust (Vulg.concupiscentia)
you SKINSKI, said without equivocation Jesus had concupiscence
C
It is my hope that you all can see the significant differences between Pelagian doctrine (held by Tommy & Skinski) and authentic Holiness doctrine (which is actually very rarely discussed on these forums).
Pelagian doctrine teaches that one must become holy through one's own efforts (a distorted view of repentance) before the Holy Spirit can abide in the hearts of men. In contrast, authentic Holiness doctrine teaches that one becomes holy as one abides in Christ thus exchanging one's own sinful nature for Christ's own divine nature (which is the Holy Spirit). Unfortunately, over the last century or so some Pelagian ideas have crept into the Holiness camp, especially in the American Holiness movement, as some of you may have seen on these forums.
Regardless if you disagree with one or both doctrines, there are obvious distinctions that make them completely opposite of one another.
Pelagian doctrine teaches that one must become holy through one's own efforts (a distorted view of repentance) before the Holy Spirit can abide in the hearts of men. In contrast, authentic Holiness doctrine teaches that one becomes holy as one abides in Christ thus exchanging one's own sinful nature for Christ's own divine nature (which is the Holy Spirit). Unfortunately, over the last century or so some Pelagian ideas have crept into the Holiness camp, especially in the American Holiness movement, as some of you may have seen on these forums.
Regardless if you disagree with one or both doctrines, there are obvious distinctions that make them completely opposite of one another.
Theosis: Partaking of the Divine Nature
by Mark Shuttleworth
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.” (Psalm 82:6)
This is a verse that most Protestants do not underline in their Bibles. What on earth does it mean—“you are gods”? Doesn’t our faith teach that there is only one God, in three Persons? How can human beings be gods?
In the Orthodox Church, this concept is neither new nor startling. It even has a name: theosis. Theosis is the understanding that human beings can have real union with God, and so become like God to such a degree that we participate in the divine nature. Also referred to as deification, divinization, or illumination, it is a concept derived from the New Testament regarding the goal of our relationship with the Triune God. (Theosis and deification may be used interchangeably. We will avoid the term divinization, since it could be misread for divination, which is another thing altogether!)
Many Protestants, and even some Roman Catholics, might find the Orthodox concept of theosis unnerving. Especially when they read a quote such as this one from St. Athanasius: “God became man so that men might become gods,” they immediately fear an influence of Eastern mysticism from Hinduism or pantheism.
But such an influence could not be further from the Orthodox understanding. The human person does not merge with some sort of impersonal divine force, losing individual identity or consciousness. Intrinsic divinity is never ascribed to humankind or any part of the creation, and no created thing is confused with the being of God. Most certainly, humans are not accorded ontological equality with God, nor are they considered to merge or co-mingle with the being of God as He is in His essence.
In fact, to safeguard against any sort of misunderstanding of this kind, Orthodox theologians have been careful to distinguish between God’s essence and His energies. God is incomprehensible in His essence. But God, who is love, allows us to know Him through His divine energies, those actions whereby He reveals Himself to us in creation, providence, and redemption. It is through the divine energies, therefore, that we achieve union with God.
We become united with God by grace in the Person of Christ, who is God come in the flesh. The means of becoming “like God” is through perfection in holiness, the continuous process of acquiring the Holy Spirit by grace through ascetic devotion. Some Protestants might refer to this process as sanctification. Another term for it, perhaps more familiar to Western Christians, would be mortification—putting sin to death within ourselves.
In fact, deification is very akin to the Wesleyan understanding of holiness or perfection, with the added element of our mystical union with God in Christ as both the means and the motive for attaining perfection. Fr. David Hester, in his booklet, The Jesus Prayer, identifies theosis as “the gradual process by which a person is renewed and unified so completely with God that he becomes by grace what God is by nature.” Another way of stating it is “sharing in the divine nature through grace.”
Theosis: Partaking of the Divine Nature | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese < click
by Mark Shuttleworth
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.” (Psalm 82:6)
This is a verse that most Protestants do not underline in their Bibles. What on earth does it mean—“you are gods”? Doesn’t our faith teach that there is only one God, in three Persons? How can human beings be gods?
In the Orthodox Church, this concept is neither new nor startling. It even has a name: theosis. Theosis is the understanding that human beings can have real union with God, and so become like God to such a degree that we participate in the divine nature. Also referred to as deification, divinization, or illumination, it is a concept derived from the New Testament regarding the goal of our relationship with the Triune God. (Theosis and deification may be used interchangeably. We will avoid the term divinization, since it could be misread for divination, which is another thing altogether!)
Many Protestants, and even some Roman Catholics, might find the Orthodox concept of theosis unnerving. Especially when they read a quote such as this one from St. Athanasius: “God became man so that men might become gods,” they immediately fear an influence of Eastern mysticism from Hinduism or pantheism.
But such an influence could not be further from the Orthodox understanding. The human person does not merge with some sort of impersonal divine force, losing individual identity or consciousness. Intrinsic divinity is never ascribed to humankind or any part of the creation, and no created thing is confused with the being of God. Most certainly, humans are not accorded ontological equality with God, nor are they considered to merge or co-mingle with the being of God as He is in His essence.
In fact, to safeguard against any sort of misunderstanding of this kind, Orthodox theologians have been careful to distinguish between God’s essence and His energies. God is incomprehensible in His essence. But God, who is love, allows us to know Him through His divine energies, those actions whereby He reveals Himself to us in creation, providence, and redemption. It is through the divine energies, therefore, that we achieve union with God.
We become united with God by grace in the Person of Christ, who is God come in the flesh. The means of becoming “like God” is through perfection in holiness, the continuous process of acquiring the Holy Spirit by grace through ascetic devotion. Some Protestants might refer to this process as sanctification. Another term for it, perhaps more familiar to Western Christians, would be mortification—putting sin to death within ourselves.
In fact, deification is very akin to the Wesleyan understanding of holiness or perfection, with the added element of our mystical union with God in Christ as both the means and the motive for attaining perfection. Fr. David Hester, in his booklet, The Jesus Prayer, identifies theosis as “the gradual process by which a person is renewed and unified so completely with God that he becomes by grace what God is by nature.” Another way of stating it is “sharing in the divine nature through grace.”
Theosis: Partaking of the Divine Nature | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese < click