Can you Sin and Not Die?

[Ariel82]

sigh.. guess I should have read more....

Skinski you should apologize to Zone for these false accusations:

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Your objection is simply due to wanting to believe in a salvation WHICH LACKS being redeemed from ALL iniquity and lacks heart purity.

Originally Posted by Skinski7

You want a salvation where light and darkness mixes. Where one can walk according to the flesh and to the Spirit at the same time.

Zone, not everything he says are lies and if he ever figures out what happened by the action of Adam. there might be hope.

Romans 5
[h=3][/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— [SUP]13 [/SUP](For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, [SUP]21 [/SUP]so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Skinski7]

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Your objection is simply due to wanting to believe in a salvation WHICH LACKS being redeemed from ALL iniquity and lacks heart purity.

Originally Posted by Skinski7

You want a salvation where light and darkness mixes. Where one can walk according to the flesh and to the Spirit at the same time.


The doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ which Martin Luther called the "Blessed Exchange" teaches that one is "credited with a foreign righteousness" whilst one is still in a defiled state. Hence it is indeed a salvation without heart purity.

In fact Reformed Theology teaches that all human beings are Totally Depraved and this depravity is connected to the flesh itself and thus remains depraved until they shed the flesh body. This light and darkness is mixing in this doctrine.

It is dualism which has it origins in Neo-Platonism. It was the ex-Manichaean Augustine of Hippo who introduced the doctrine into the church that "man was born a sinner." He taught that the sin of Adam literally defiled the flesh and this defilement was passed down via the male sperm one generation to the next.

This teaching was simply not held to in the early church. You don't find it anywhere. There are hints at a vice of origin but not an inability to do right or a necessity to sin. Christianity held the doctrine of free will until the time of Augustine when the nature of man was redefined.



Zone,

The date in my profile is a reference to me coming out of false doctrines and coming to a knowledge of the truth. It was in 2011 that I forsook my iniquity but it has been a continual process of growth and understanding. After I repented there was still a lot of problems in my thinking due to having been sitting under the doctrines of Calvinism for so long.

I was a Calvinist before although I did not understand the term. Nevertheless I held to the doctrines of Calvinism like Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace.

I picked up those doctrines through Paul Washer and David Eells.

My introduction to Total Depravity was due to the writings of Stewart Best.

I have only read the early church for the past two years and I have also only read entire books of the Bible in context for the past two years. Before that I isolated and proof texted scripture like practically everyone else.

The mess in my mind took many, many, many months of reading my Bible and reflecting, and examining myself. It did not happen overnight. I also had a mess in my heart due to being complacent about worldliness and my excuse was in my view of predestination whereby I thought "my deeds" were irrelevant. Therefore I waited on God to change me instead of realising that he was actually calling me to repentance.

I was initially broken over my sin and turned to God. I basically gave everything up. I then sought God because I had no love in me, not a real love, I knew it.

I was very confused about the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Was it something you physically feel? Do you speak in tongues? etc. It wasn't until one day I was driving in the car when I was reflecting on the things of God that the light of God just turned on and I KNEW. There was this union with Christ, my mind coming together in perfect agreement with God and basically my spirit being renewed and made alive to God.

So my journey was not an instantaneous moment. I had to unlearn much beforehand and God had to reveal much to my soul. God had to work in me a real saving faith whereby I could really trust in God. That is why I say I was saved in 2011 and 2012.

If that causes a problem for you then there is not much I can do. It appears to me that you just attempting to tear me down via any means possible. You have accused me of attending Promise Keepers for porn, you have accused me of preaching this message in 1995, you have accused me of preaching the law of Moses, you have accused me of being a follower of Charles Finney, you have implied I creep pastors from an place of isolation (I think you referred to a basement). I am sure there are other things that I forget but you jump to a lot of conclusions in your zealousness to prove I am a liar, a gnostic, a heretic, a denier of Christ.

You ought to seriously sit back and really reflect on your words and only say something about someone when you know it is true. I err as well and make misjudgments but I certainly don't do what you do.

My issues with what is being taught in the churches is not without basis. I have met face to face with many pastors and talked these issues out. These men I have spoken to simply do not believe that one can truly be saved from the bondage of sin in this life, they cannot separate their minds from "sin" being necessitated by the "flesh" apart from the will. To them if you are in a flesh body then you will disobey God. Thus the Gospel to these men is a provision that covers that.

I elaborate very clearly from the Scripture why this is not true. I explain that it is the lusts of the flesh which DRAW people into sin. They are not NECESSITATED to sin. Sin is ALWAYS a choice. Always.

I have issue with this...

[h=3]Chapter VI[/h] [h=2]Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof[/h] I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]
II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]
III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]
V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]
VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]

The Westminster Confession pretty much sums up "why people sin" according to Reformed Theology. I object to it as unbiblical.

I reject the writings of Martin Luther who was heavily influenced by the dualism of Augustine. I also reject the writings of John Calvin who was also heavily influence by the dualism of Augustine.

I have looked into the history and can MARK EXACTLY where these doctrines began. I can also clearly see how they contradict the Bible.

You have great issue with that because you believe in the above doctrines. You are a Lutheran after-all therefore to challenge the doctrine of Martin Luther is heretical in your eyes.

Who am I? I am certainly not a learned theologian like Martin Luther. I am a peasant who never even went to college/university. I am someone who works with my hands for a living. Yet someone who by the grace of God was awakened to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and I have a fire to share it with every individual I meet.

 

[mark54]

The wretch CHOSE to sin.

What caused 'the wretch' of Rom 7(as you put it) to be in the state he was in?

I will give you my opinion as to the above question I asked you.
I like to start at verse 4:

So, my brothers, you also died to the lawthrough the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who wasraised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law wereat work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now, by dying to whatonce bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the newway of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.(4-6 NIV)

Paul makes clear in the above the following:
The Christian has to die to the law in order to belong to Christ and bear fruit for God
The sinful passions in us are aroused bythe law
We have been released from the law andserve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code (law)

So whydoes Paul state the above, what made him come to those conclusions? Why especiallydid he say the sinful passions in us are aroused by the law?

Well he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to thelaw, and he is talking about his own life, that is quite plain:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:for I had not known lust, except thelaw had said, Thou shalt not covet.(one of the ten commandments)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. Forwithout the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alivewithout the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.(verses 7-11 KJV)
Untilthe law came to Paul he felt alive, but once it came to him sin revived(in theNIV it says. ‘sin sprang to life and I died’) and he died. So when Paul wasconvicted of the need to follow seriously the good and Holy laws of God, sinsprang to life in him and he died. So Paul must have taken God seriously atthat point, and I do not believe he ‘chose’ to sin as you put it. Paul says that sin, took occasion by the commandment to wrought all manner of concupiscence in him. I assume you knowthe dictionary definition of that word. So when the commandment came to Paul,and he knew he had to obey it or be condemned, he became consumed byconcupiscence. We know Paul believed if he could not obey the commandment hewas condemned because he said the commandment which was ordained to life (if hefollowed/obeyed it he would live/be acceptableto God) became death to him. He could not obey it, because sin used what wasHoly and good to wrought all manner of concupiscence in Paul. Paul knew whats in was in God’s sight, failure to obey the law. So to Paul he could not be asinner as he was a sinner and be saved/accepted by God. If he did not believethat the commandment would not have been death to him.
YetPaul confirms the commandment itself is Holy, righteous and good (verse12)
The law itself did not become death to Paul, but sin produced death in Paul through what was Holy and good(verse 13)
Howcould sin use the law to bring death to Paul? I have used this explanationbefore. You say we do not have original sin. Well I won’t get into a drawn outdebate with you on that, but take a child. Once a child gets to an age where they can take some responsibility (two for example) a loving parent gives them some rules for their own good
IE
Don’t touch electrical sockets, don’t touch the computer, don’t touch the TV etc. Nowonce the child is given these rules/commands/laws if you like, huge excitementis stirred in them to break the rules. If they were not given the rules in thefirst place they would, inev itably sometimes be drawn to that which theyshould not touch, but the allure would not be as great to do so. But once theyare given the rules, rebellion, springs to life in them, the basic human natureto rebel against the rules and it expresses itself in defiance to lovingparents
Hence when the law came to Paul, the law he was desperate to obey, fearing if hecould not obey it he was condemned, sin sprang to life in him, the natural,basic human desire(or sin if you like) to rebel against that which is good andHoly sprang to life in him and expressed itself in opposition to God’s good andHoly laws. So Paul was caught. The good and Holy laws of God he was desperate to obey that would lead him to life, instead were used by sin to condemn him.
So Paul is a wretch. Woe betide him, he desperately wants to do what is right, buthe cannot carry it out, for that which is basic to him(and us) the sinfulnature/to rebel against that which is good was too strong for him and won thefight, making him a law of the prisoner of sin
So the wretch of Rom 7(imho) was caused by him believing he was condemned if he could not obey the good and Holy laws of God
For the law can only hold power over you, if it can bring punishment/condemnation.But the law cannot condemn the Christian, for Christ paid the price of our sin at Calvary, hence the power of sin, the law(its sting/death)1Cor15:56 has been removed. Therefore the Christian is free. It is their obligation to then follow after the Spirit.
Which brings me to the central point of my disagreement with you Skinski. Paul becamethe wretch of Rom 7 in effect because he believed his sin could bring death to him, for like it or not sin is the transgression of the law
Yet you have said many times, God will only accept a person who has ceased their sin, which biblically leaves them in the same place the wretch was in Rom 7
Of course Paul was passionate about God, anyone who is lukewarm say about the Gospel will not end up like Paul did, for the more afraid you are of failing to cease sin/not uphold thelaw, the greater will be the desire to break the law. And for the luke warm,they can just go along to church on Sundays if they believe your message and put on an act they know in their hearts they cannot live up to in their lives. But for the sincere Skinski, who believe what you preach, for those who ardently want to follow God, your message is death to them, according to Rom ch7. For Paul's Gospel hangs on a person knowing they are accepted by God, without being under law(for righteousness) Yet, despite however you word it, if a person cannot be accepted by God if sin has not ceased, they have in effect to uphold thelaw to be acceptable to God, and therefore they are under the law
I’m sorry Skinski, you do not understand Grace, nor IMO Rom7 and what we are being shown.

 

[homwardbound]

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Your objection is simply due to wanting to believe in a salvation WHICH LACKS being redeemed from ALL iniquity and lacks heart purity.

Originally Posted by Skinski7

You want a salvation where light and darkness mixes. Where one can walk according to the flesh and to the Spirit at the same time.


The doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ which Martin Luther called the "Blessed Exchange" teaches that one is "credited with a foreign righteousness" whilst one is still in a defiled state. Hence it is indeed a salvation without heart purity.

In fact Reformed Theology teaches that all human beings are Totally Depraved and this depravity is connected to the flesh itself and thus remains depraved until they shed the flesh body. This light and darkness is mixing in this doctrine.

It is dualism which has it origins in Neo-Platonism. It was the ex-Manichaean Augustine of Hippo who introduced the doctrine into the church that "man was born a sinner." He taught that the sin of Adam literally defiled the flesh and this defilement was passed down via the male sperm one generation to the next.

This teaching was simply not held to in the early church. You don't find it anywhere. There are hints at a vice of origin but not an inability to do right or a necessity to sin. Christianity held the doctrine of free will until the time of Augustine when the nature of man was redefined.



Zone,

The date in my profile is a reference to me coming out of false doctrines and coming to a knowledge of the truth. It was in 2011 that I forsook my iniquity but it has been a continual process of growth and understanding. After I repented there was still a lot of problems in my thinking due to having been sitting under the doctrines of Calvinism for so long.

I was a Calvinist before although I did not understand the term. Nevertheless I held to the doctrines of Calvinism like Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace.

I picked up those doctrines through Paul Washer and David Eells.

My introduction to Total Depravity was due to the writings of Stewart Best.

I have only read the early church for the past two years and I have also only read entire books of the Bible in context for the past two years. Before that I isolated and proof texted scripture like practically everyone else.

The mess in my mind took many, many, many months of reading my Bible and reflecting, and examining myself. It did not happen overnight. I also had a mess in my heart due to being complacent about worldliness and my excuse was in my view of predestination whereby I thought "my deeds" were irrelevant. Therefore I waited on God to change me instead of realising that he was actually calling me to repentance.

I was initially broken over my sin and turned to God. I basically gave everything up. I then sought God because I had no love in me, not a real love, I knew it.

I was very confused about the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Was it something you physically feel? Do you speak in tongues? etc. It wasn't until one day I was driving in the car when I was reflecting on the things of God that the light of God just turned on and I KNEW. There was this union with Christ, my mind coming together in perfect agreement with God and basically my spirit being renewed and made alive to God.

So my journey was not an instantaneous moment. I had to unlearn much beforehand and God had to reveal much to my soul. God had to work in me a real saving faith whereby I could really trust in God. That is why I say I was saved in 2011 and 2012.

If that causes a problem for you then there is not much I can do. It appears to me that you just attempting to tear me down via any means possible. You have accused me of attending Promise Keepers for porn, you have accused me of preaching this message in 1995, you have accused me of preaching the law of Moses, you have accused me of being a follower of Charles Finney, you have implied I creep pastors from an place of isolation (I think you referred to a basement). I am sure there are other things that I forget but you jump to a lot of conclusions in your zealousness to prove I am a liar, a gnostic, a heretic, a denier of Christ.

You ought to seriously sit back and really reflect on your words and only say something about someone when you know it is true. I err as well and make misjudgments but I certainly don't do what you do.

My issues with what is being taught in the churches is not without basis. I have met face to face with many pastors and talked these issues out. These men I have spoken to simply do not believe that one can truly be saved from the bondage of sin in this life, they cannot separate their minds from "sin" being necessitated by the "flesh" apart from the will. To them if you are in a flesh body then you will disobey God. Thus the Gospel to these men is a provision that covers that.

I elaborate very clearly from the Scripture why this is not true. I explain that it is the lusts of the flesh which DRAW people into sin. They are not NECESSITATED to sin. Sin is ALWAYS a choice. Always.

I have issue with this...



The Westminster Confession pretty much sums up "why people sin" according to Reformed Theology. I object to it as unbiblical.

I reject the writings of Martin Luther who was heavily influenced by the dualism of Augustine. I also reject the writings of John Calvin who was also heavily influence by the dualism of Augustine.

I have looked into the history and can MARK EXACTLY where these doctrines began. I can also clearly see how they contradict the Bible.

You have great issue with that because you believe in the above doctrines. You are a Lutheran after-all therefore to challenge the doctrine of Martin Luther is heretical in your eyes.

Who am I? I am certainly not a learned theologian like Martin Luther. I am a peasant who never even went to college/university. I am someone who works with my hands for a living. Yet someone who by the grace of God was awakened to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and I have a fire to share it with every individual I meet.

Skinski, see Galatians 5:16-26 the war between the flesh and Spirit of God then see Roamns 8 where we are freed from the flesh carnal mind being in the Spirit and this done through believing God. One can only receive the Spirit through belief in God It is clear that the flesh can never please God by and through these passages I am asking you to read and come to truth soyou will willing die to your own fleshly desires that are keeping you from receiving the Spirit of truth that sets you free from all sin's. whether in a process or not, it will never happen until youdecide to die in the Spiritof your flesh carnal mind of trying to obey the entire law.
Skinski fill your bathtub up with water put in ten apples and put all those apples under the water at the same time using only your hands. Can you or anyone do this? this is my point just as you can't hold ten apples under the water at the same time you will never be able to obey the ten commandments in and of self ever let alone 314 jewish laws.
Ask for God ask for the Spirit to live in you and teach you truth and thus God will begin the good work in you and even insantly you will have transferred from death the flesh to life the spirit of God you beiing vorn again as in the day of Pentecost
Love you Skinski

 

[Skinski7]

Mark,

I'll keep it very simple.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Concupiscence is a reference to the natural desires of the flesh and is usually used to refer to "evil desire" in the sense of "desiring that which is wrong."

The Jews used the term "Yetzer Ra" for this desire and they also use the term "Yetzer Tov" for the moral conscience. Thus sin is simply a CHOSEN ACTION when one suppressed the Yetzer Tov in order to fulfill the Yetzer Ra.

This is what Paul is referring to in Rom 7:8. When the commandment came Paul had KNOWLEDGE of right action and thus the natural desires of the flesh (which are not evil) COMBINED with this KNOWLEDGE and "evil desire" was born, hence is is by the commandment that "concupiscence" is born.

This is why "without the law sin is dead."

Jesus Christ had concupiscence but was without sin. This is because sin is only when you YIELD to the desire in violation of your conscience.

James describes is very clearly here...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The "wretchedness" of "not being able to do" is a condition wrought by CHOOSING TO YIELD to temptation. People are not FORCED to sin. People are ENTICED to sin. It is for this reason that we are accountable to God for our actions.

These are the basic principles that Augustine of Hippo did not understand. If you read his writing you will see that he viewed "concupiscence" as something that "came into being" AFTER THE FALL. Augustine viewed "concupiscence" as the "sin nature" which NECESSITATES actual sin in people. Augustine was the first theologian to push this view and receive acceptance amongst many of his peers.

The premise espoused in the Westminster Confession, which I quoted above, has its origin with the doctrine of Augustine.

What Augustine missed though is that "concupiscence" existed BEFORE the fall. We see it in this verse...

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve knew the law for she had said...

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

So when Paul says this...

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [Notice Paul connects "when we were in the flesh" with "bringing forth fruit unto death." ie. this is the FORMER UNCRUCIFIED FLESH WALK]

Rom 7:5 is a reference to the Yetzer Ra being borne out of Yetzer Tov due to an EXPRESS COMMANDMENT given (by the law).

Being "delivered from the law" REMOVES THE LETTER and REPLACES IT WITH THE SPIRIT which is the NEW COVENANT.

Thus when Paul writes this...

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

He is referring to REDEMPTION FROM SIN via the sin offering of Jesus Christ whereby we are cleansed and purified by the blood and empowered to walk in newness of life by abiding in the Spirit (abiding in Christ). It is through this that we bring forth fruit unto God. Jesus Christ truly redeems us from the curse of the law through His sacrifice.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Becoming dead to the law has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus Christ absorbing your punishment as your substitute by which you are released from the requirements of the law. If that was the case then "walking in the steps of faith" (Rom 4:12), "faith upholding the law" (Rom 3:31), and "walking after the Spirit to fulfill the righteousness of the law" (Rom 8:4) would be meaningless.

I know that what I say is extremely difficult to grasp due to it being that substitution theology is predominantly preached today. Thus there exists a stronghold in the mind which when contradicted produces cognitive dissonance. Substitution theology is a very powerful stronghold to contend against and I fear very few people will escape its snare simply because it serves as an antidote against the truth.

Satan is VERY INTELLIGENT and he is a MASTER THEOLOGIAN and I beseech you to not underestimate his wiles. The Bible CLEARLY WARNS of MASSIVE DECEPTION which will DECEIVE MOST PEOPLE.

FEW who profess Jesus will be saved.

MANY who profess Jesus will be deceived.

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski, see Galatians 5:16-26 the war between the flesh and Spirit of God then see Roamns 8 where we are freed from the flesh carnal mind being in the Spirit and this done through believing God. One can only receive the Spirit through belief in God It is clear that the flesh can never please God by and through these passages I am asking you to read and come to truth soyou will willing die to your own fleshly desires that are keeping you from receiving the Spirit of truth that sets you free from all sin's. whether in a process or not, it will never happen until youdecide to die in the Spiritof your flesh carnal mind of trying to obey the entire law.
Skinski fill your bathtub up with water put in ten apples and put all those apples under the water at the same time using only your hands. Can you or anyone do this? this is my point just as you can't hold ten apples under the water at the same time you will never be able to obey the ten commandments in and of self ever let alone 314 jewish laws.
Ask for God ask for the Spirit to live in you and teach you truth and thus God will begin the good work in you and even insantly you will have transferred from death the flesh to life the spirit of God you beiing vorn again as in the day of Pentecost
Love you Skinski

You are set free from the carnal mind by DYING WITH CHRIST not be mere "belief" in the sense of "mental assent." Biblical belief is an all encompassing state of mind by which we are a DOERs of the word. This is why James writes this...

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

See how the "believing" is connected with "doing." You cannot separate belief from doing. Believing = Obedience.

Believed - G4100 - pisteuō
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Faith = Doing : Read Hebrews 11 and James 2 and you will see faith is connected to ACTION. In other words true faith is ACTIVE. A person with true faith is a DOER OF THE WORD. Faith is not "waiting around for God to make you do it."

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Unbelief = Unfaithfulness = Not Doing = Disobedience

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Unbelief - G570 - apistia
From G571; faithlessness, that is, (negatively) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience): - unbelief.

pisteuō and apistia are opposites. Look at the definitions. Theologians have it wrong when they disconnect "obedience" from "faith" and "believing." They are dead wrong!

Which is EXACTLY what you are doing Homewardbound.

Your example about "apples" and the "ten commandments" is fallacious. I am not talking about the Ten Commandments.

I am speaking about FORSAKING ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS and LEARNING TO DO GOOD.

Those who are Christ's have DIED WITH CHRIST in the baptism of repentance and they have been RAISED UP BY GOD to NEWNESS OF LIFE. All things become new.

A Christian is not someone who "believes in Jesus" and still walks in the flesh submitting themselves to carnal desires in disobedience to God waiting for God to change them. That is a lie.

We are set free from sin by being crucified with Christ whereby the old man is crucified and the body of sin is destroyed. That is what the Bible teaches.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

That old man which yielded to sin is put to death once and for all. Thus we can not live unto God.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

We don't let sin reign in our mortal body. Our body is an instrument which we yield to God as a living sacrifice (Rom 12:1-2).

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The grace of God is the power to live above the dominion of sin. We are no longer sins slave.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Anyone who yields to sin is still a slave.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Christian's don't yield to sin because they have obeyed from the heart the doctrine of Jesus Christ.
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

They have thus been set free from sin and have become a slave of righteousness.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

In the past a Christian yielded their body to sin but not anymore. Now they ought to yield themselves to righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

In other words sin begat more sin but righteousness begats holiness.

One cannot serve sin and be righteous.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Beign freed from sin we yield to righteousness and the end of this is eternal life. The end of those who continue to yield to sin is death.

Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


I really don't know how much clearer it could be.

So many people want to believe in doctrines which have them "declared forensically righteous" while they remain a "servant of sin." It's a lie.

Yes Galatians 5:16-26 is true. Paul is teaching how one ought to walk and he gives a strong warning that those who walk in the flesh WILL PERISH.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Again I am not talking about the Law of Moses. I am talking about DOING THE RIGHT THING BY FAITH.

Faith works by love.

Love fulfills the law.

If anyone is still sinning (yielding to temptation and doing wrong) then they ARE NOT walking by a faith that works by love and thus they NEED TO REPENT.

 

[zone]

Concupiscence is a reference to the natural desires of the flesh and is usually used to refer to "evil desire" in the sense of "desiring that which is wrong."

The Jews used the term "Yetzer Ra" for this desire and they also use the term "Yetzer Tov" for the moral conscience. Thus sin is simply a CHOSEN ACTION when one suppressed the Yetzer Tov in order to fulfill the Yetzer Ra.

This is what Paul is referring to in Rom 7:8. When the commandment came Paul had KNOWLEDGE of right action and thus the natural desires of the flesh (which are not evil) COMBINED with this KNOWLEDGE and "evil desire" was born, hence is is by the commandment that "concupiscence" is born.

This is why "without the law sin is dead."

Jesus Christ had concupiscence but was without sin. This is because sin is only when you YIELD to the desire in violation of your conscience..

Mark:
now you know why jews today reject the Christ, the Propitiaton for their sins - they don't think they have any, and/or they can work it out themselves by choosing the good over the evil inclination - Kabbalah and Gnosticism.

KNOWLEDGE of right action and thus the natural desires of the flesh (which are not evil) COMBINED with this KNOWLEDGE and "evil desire" was born, hence is is by the commandment that "concupiscence" is born.

Jesus Christ had concupiscence but was without sin. This is because sin is only when you YIELD to the desire in violation of your conscience..

who is making God the author of evil?
you are.
you and your friends.
enjoy it.

A Necessary Evil: The Yetzer ha-Ra

Jewish Myth, Magic, and Mysticism: A Necessary Evil: The Yetzer ha-Ra < click

Last week I explained that in Judaism ha-Satan, the Adversary, was one of the “severe” agents of God. Another such harsh but necessary force in God’s creation is the Yetzer ha-Ra, which is variously translated as the “Evil Impulse,” the “Evil Desire,” the “Selfish Desire” or just “Desire.” It is that aspect of nature, but especially human nature, which drives us to compete, to fight, to possess, but most of all to desire sexual gratification.
[Postcard by Jungenstil artist Moses Ephraim Lilien]


Though it is counter-balanced by the Yetzer ha-Tov, the “altruistic desire,” it is nonetheless the source of much of the grief in human life – lust, violence, selfishness, vengeance, and ambition. One would think that humanity would be truly better off if we could destroy this impulse. I always think in this context of John Lennon’s “Imagine.” It has struck me that Lennon is thinking of something akin to the Yetzer when he wrote that song. Imagine if human being were finally free of all the selfish drives? No thoughts of property, security, self-aggrandizement or the future? Wouldn’t things be perfect, or at least a whole lot better? Is Lennon right? Well, in fact, the Sages of Talmudic times anticipated Lennon by about 1600 years and imagined just such a scenario. This is their mythic account of the “Day the Muse [almost] died”:

And [they]cried with a great voice to the Eternal their God (Neh. 9:4). What did they cry?...Woe, woe, it is he [the Yetzer ha-Ra] who has destroyed the Sanctuary, burnt the Temple, killed the righteous, driven all Israel into exile and is still dancing in our midst… You have surely given him to us that we may receive merit through him. We want neither him nor merit through him. In that moment a tablet fell from the firmament, the word ‘truth’ inscribed upon it [Heaven accedes to the request]….They [the Sages of the Great Assembly] ordered a complete fast of three day….whereupon he [the Yetzer] was surrendered to them. He came forth from the Holy of Holies like a fiery lion…. At that moment the prophet declared, “This is the Yetzer”…the prophet said, “cast him in a lead barrel” (See Zech. 5:8)….He [the Yetzer] said to them, “Realize that if you kill me, the world is finished.” They held him for three days, then they looked in the whole land of Israel and not an egg could be found. So they asked, “What shall we do now?”…So they put out his eyes and let him go; this helped in that men became less inclined to incest (Yoma 69b).

...........

Geoff Dennis is rabbi of Congregation Kol Ami and teaches Kabbalah and Rabbinic Literature in the Jewish Studies Program at the University of North Texas. He is the author of The Encyclopedia of Jewish Myth, Magic, and Mysticism, a 2007 National Book Award finalist, and recipient of an Honorable Mention for the 2007 Jewish Library Council Book Award. He has written numerous articles. The most recent, "Purity and Transformation:The Mimetic Performance of Scriptural Texts in the Ritual of Taharah," is in the Journal of Ritual Studies 26 (1), 2012.

 

[Skinski7]

Mark:
now you know why jews today reject the Christ, the Propitiaton for their sins - they don't think they have any, and/or they can work it out themselves by choosing the good over the evil inclination - Kabbalah and Gnosticism.

What I write has nothing to do with the Kabbalah Zone.

The Bible is clear on these issues.

The Bible teaches that temptation is common to man.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The Bible teaches that sin is borne out of yielding to temptation wrought by carnal desires.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The Bible teaches that Eve was drawn away by her own lusts.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The Bible teaches that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus triumphed over the ways of Satan.

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

God told Cain to rule over sin.

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Jesus taught that those who sin are sins slaves.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Paul taught that who we yield to is who we serve.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul taught that we are set free from sin by yielding to the doctrine of Christ.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Jesus taught that He can make people free indeed from sin.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The Bible teaches that Jesus came to redeem us from all iniquity.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Redeem literally means to "set one free by payment of a ransom."

The ransom paid was the blood of Jesus.

Act_20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

It is through the blood that we are cleansed of all sin on the condition that we are walking in the light.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses our consciences from our former dead works.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

It is by the blood that God forgives sin.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;




Yet you call me a Gnostic Heretic because I deny the Penal Substitution view of the atonement which was INVENTED 400 years ago and also because I deny that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is credited to your account which was INVENTED by Martin Luther.

I have some questions for you Zone.

Why doesn't the Bible specifically state anywhere that "the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to your account"???

The doctrine is pretty much a foundation pillar in your entire theological system. I know of all the scriptures which you use to support this doctrine but NONE OF THEM SAY that "the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed." Why not? Why is not that clearly stated anywhere in the Bible? There must be an explanation.

Next,

If the "righteousness of Jesus Christ is credited to your account by faith" or as the Protestants teach "simply by believing it to be so, ie. trust" then why does the Bible say that "righteousness is imputed to those who WALK IN THE STEPS of that faith."

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Why does it say that? What is this "WALKING IN THE STEPS" if it is not "DOING ANYTHING."




I have listened to multitudes of sermons on the "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" and NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM ever refers to Romans 4:12. Why do they leave that verse out Zone?


I think these are good questions.

 

[mark54]

I'llkeep it very simple.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all mannerof concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Concupiscence is a reference to the natural desires of the flesh and is usuallyused to refer to "evil desire" in the sense of "desiring thatwhich is wrong."

The Jews used the term "Yetzer Ra" for this desire and they also usethe term "Yetzer Tov" for the moral conscience. Thus sin is simply aCHOSEN ACTION when one suppressed the Yetzer Tov in order to fulfill the YetzerRa.

This is what Paul is referring to in Rom 7:8. When the commandment came Paulhad KNOWLEDGE of right action and thus the natural desires of the flesh (whichare not evil) COMBINED with this KNOWLEDGE and "evil desire" wasborn, hence is is by the commandment that "concupiscence" is born.
In my Collins dictionary it gives the following meaning for the word concupiscence:
Strong desire, especially sexual desire.’
My Oxford English dictionary says much the same.Bearing in mind Paul starts speaking of this subject by stating:
I would not have known lust, except the law had said. ‘Thou shalt not covet’ I thinkit is obvious what is being spoken of here. You may speak of a person having concupiscenceand not sinning, but in relation to this Paul plainly stated:
When the commandment came sin revived(or sprang to life) and I died. And the commandment that was ordained to life he found to be unto death, and sin taking occasion by the commandment deceived him, and by itslew him. Therefore Skinski, Paul had to have given in, in some way to the ‘allmanner of concupiscence that was wrought in him.’ For he knew the law better than you, surely of that we can agree, and he knew according to the law he was guilty, condemned, a sinner, according to the concupiscence wrought in him.
You need to understand, Paul was passionate abouthis religion, he had advanced far furhter than most others his age in it, andwas zealous for it beyond most of his age. But sin, used the law to condemnPaul by arousing all manner of concupiscence in him, of which he must somehowhave yielded to the temptation. It is so plainly written, once the law camePaul became consumed by impure thoughts. But you will not accept this, you willbend scripture, do gymnastics with the plain word in order to desperatley clingto your misguided beliefs. This is why "withoutthe law sin is dead."

Jesus Christ had concupiscence but was without sin. This is because sin is onlywhen you YIELD to the desire in violation of your conscience.

James describes is very clearly here...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, andenticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when itis finished, bringeth forth death.

The "wretchedness" of "not being able to do" is a conditionwrought by CHOOSING TO YIELD to temptation. People are not FORCED to sin.People are ENTICED to sin. It is for this reason that we are accountable to Godfor our actions.
Your Gospel Skinsky gives the devil a foothold he should not be given.
Satan came to Luther one day and said to him:
‘So Luther you are a sinner’
To which Luther replied
‘Yes I am, but Christ died for sinners’
Luther said it was like chopping the devils headoff. I repeat, if you understood the dilemma of Paul in the verses mentionedyou would understand the truth of Luther’s words. Satan will just pour more andmore impurity into the mind of anyone who stands on your Gospel, for he knowsif they are sincere, most sincere he can then force them to give up with God,because vthey asre standing under the law/according to their sin. But if a person stands on faith in Christ, he is wasting his time, and will move on tofind someone else to devour.
‘For sin shall not be your master, for you are notunder law but under grace’
You have no true understanding of the above.

These are the basic principles that Augustine of Hippo did not understand. Ifyou read his writing you will see that he viewed "concupiscence" assomething that "came into being" AFTER THE FALL. Augustine viewed"concupiscence" as the "sin nature" which NECESSITATESactual sin in people. Augustine was the first theologian to push this view andreceive acceptance amongst many of his peers.

The premise espoused in the Westminster Confession, which I quoted above, hasits origin with the doctrine of Augustine.

What Augustine missed though is that "concupiscence" existed BEFOREthe fall. We see it in this verse...

I have never read any literature of Augustine, Luther,Calvin or any of the other so-called theologians or scholars, nor have I ever desired to. You spend far more of your time reading of scholars and theologians than I ever have.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it waspleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took ofthe fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and hedid eat.

Eve knew the law for she had said...

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of thetrees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, Godhath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

So when Paul says this...

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were bythe law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [NoticePaul connects "when we were in the flesh" with "bringing forthfruit unto death." ie. this is the FORMER UNCRUCIFIED FLESH WALK]

Rom 7:5 is a reference to the Yetzer Ra being borne out of Yetzer Tov due to anEXPRESS COMMANDMENT given (by the law).

Being "delivered from the law" REMOVES THE LETTER and REPLACES ITWITH THE SPIRIT which is the NEW COVENANT.

Thus when Paul writes this...

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by thebody of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him whois raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

He is referring to REDEMPTION FROM SIN via the sin offering of Jesus Christwhereby we are cleansed and purified by the blood and empowered to walk innewness of life by abiding in the Spirit (abiding in Christ). It is throughthis that we bring forth fruit unto God. Jesus Christ truly redeems us from thecurse of the law through His sacrifice.


I have told you now countless times why/how sin usesthe law to condemn people, but you refuse to accept it, I can only imagine whythis is. As for good works below. This is the problem with your Gospel, it is basically self-centered, for you say the only works God requires of you is to put your flesh to death and make of yourself a pure heart, that’s it. Add to that your preaching on this website. This is classic, down to a tee of what I was brought up with.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity,and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Becoming dead to the law has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus Christabsorbing your punishment as your substitute by which you are released from therequirements of the law. If that was the case then "walking in the stepsof faith" (Rom 4:12), "faith upholding the law" (Rom 3:31), and"walking after the Spirit to fulfill the righteousness of the law"(Rom 8:4) would be meaningless.

You do not understand Rom3:31
Prior to this Paul had stated a persi on is justified apart from observing the law. I don’t care how you try and evade this or cry foul, but you most certainly do believe in justification according to lawkeeping. For you state God will accept no one unless they have ceased their sinning, and sin is transgression of the law. You may be blind to what you preach but it is so dangerous, so very dangerously subtle in that the individual is condemned according to the law by your Gospel but it is eloquently explained away as something else.
I repeat, if Rom3:31 meant the law was perfectly upheld then Paul could not have referred to the Corinthian church in hisletters as ‘Brothers’ or ‘The church of God in Corinth’ not possible.

I know that what I say is extremely difficult to grasp due to it being thatsubstitution theology is predominantly preached today. Thus there exists astronghold in the mind which when contradicted produces cognitive dissonance.Substitution theology is a very powerful stronghold to contend against and Ifear very few people will escape its snare simply because it serves as anantidote against the truth.

Why refer to whAt churches preach to me? As if youare saying. ‘Don’t be gullible and believe them. How many times must I tellyou. I was brought up in churches that preached your message Skinski. It was only when I left them and was shown the Gospel of Grace that sin lessened inme, and that is completely in line with Rom ch7 teaching. I repeat, I was brought up with your Gospel

Satan is VERY INTELLIGENT and he is a MASTER THEOLOGIAN and I beseech you tonot underestimate his wiles. The Bible CLEARLY WARNS of MASSIVE DECEPTION whichwill DECEIVE MOST PEOPLE.
Very true, master deceptions dotake place, and anyone who accepts your Gospel, and is in earnest to followChrist in all likelihood will end up as the wretch of Rom ch7
I hope and pray none are deceived by your words,for you are right, satan is intelligent and a master deceiver.
FEW who profess Jesus will be saved.

MANY who profess Jesus will be deceived

We are under a new covenant Skinsky, not the old one

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17[/SUP]Then headds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

 

[Skinski7]

KNOWLEDGE of right action and thus the natural desires of the flesh (which are not evil) COMBINED with this KNOWLEDGE and "evil desire" was born, hence is is by the commandment that "concupiscence" is born.

Jesus Christ had concupiscence but was without sin. This is because sin is only when you YIELD to the desire in violation of your conscience..

who is making God the author of evil?
you are.
you and your friends.
enjoy it.

So you imply that my quoted statement is implying that God is the author of evil?

That is the very charge that Paul is defending in Romans 7 as it pertains to the law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

No. God's instructions of God are ordained to life. It is only through disobeying the instructions of God that death is wrought. That does not make the instructions the author of death.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.



Zone, don't you believe that all people are "born evil," "born condemned," and that "sin is necessitated by the flesh" APART from choice?

You are the one who always quotes 1Joh 1:8 to support that "sinning is inevitable." If sinning is not a choice but it "inevitable" because of how you were made then who is responsible for it?

It is the doctrine of inherited guilt and of an inherited sin nature that puts the blame of sin on God. Not what I teach Zone. You have it backwards.

[video=youtube;rIo_dvkTi1Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIo_dvkTi1Q[/video]

 

[Skinski7]

I have never read any literature of Augustine, Luther,Calvin or any of the other so-called theologians or scholars, nor have I ever desired to. You spend far more of your time reading of scholars and theologians than I ever have.

Yet the teachers you have learned your theology from have. Reformed Theology is based primarily off the theology of John Calvin and Martin Luther who based their theology off the writings of Augustine.

You can call my doctrine the devils foothold if you like but I am the one preaching a repentance whereby the rebellion to God is forsaken whereby one can then yield to God from the heart whereby purity of heart can be birthed through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Your doctrine has a pornography addict being in a state of salvation while he is still in bondage to his sin.

 

[mark54]

So you imply that my quoted statement is implying that God is the author of evil?

That is the very charge that Paul is defending in Romans 7 as it pertains to the law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

No. God's instructions of God are ordained to life. It is only through disobeying the instructions of God that death is wrought. That does not make the instructions the author of death.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.



Zone, don't you believe that all people are "born evil," "born condemned," and that "sin is necessitated by the flesh" APART from choice?

You are the one who always quotes 1Joh 1:8 to support that "sinning is inevitable." If sinning is not a choice but it "inevitable" because of how you were made then who is responsible for it?

It is the doctrine of inherited guilt and of an inherited sin nature that puts the blame of sin on God. Not what I teach Zone. You have it backwards.

[video=youtube;rIo_dvkTi1Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIo_dvkTi1Q[/video]

No the law did not become death to Paul, but sin produced death in Paul through what was Holy , righteous and good.
Rom7:12&13

 

[mark54]

Yet the teachers you have learned your theology from have. Reformed Theology is based primarily off the theology of John Calvin and Martin Luther who based their theology off the writings of Augustine.

QUOTE]

Tell me Skinsky
Who have I learned my theology from?

 

[mark54]

Your doctrine has a pornography addict being in a state of salvation while he is still in bondage to his sin.

And you accuse me and others of strawmen?

You need to learn the true meaning of the following

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

Your truth makes a sincere person a worse sinner, Paul's Gospel brings this opposite
And where his Gospel and your message is concerned it is a case of:

Never the twain shall meet

 

[Abiding]

Skinski, you dont believe in total depravity. Ok thats fine. But mankind has fallen with a death sentence.
What other things did he lose in the fall?

Romans has alot of deep teaching that goes beyond just a teaching to make better choices. Right?

 

[zone]

So you imply that my quoted statement is implying that God is the author of evil?

That is the very charge that Paul is defending in Romans 7 as it pertains to the law.

save those videos for some other sucker.
not talking about the Law, buddy.
talking about your claim My Lord had an "evil inclination".

maybe yours does.

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

 

[zone]

Your doctrine has a pornography addict being in a state of salvation while he is still in bondage to his sin.

no....in your doctrine can just move your saved date around until after you're done with porn.

isn't that what you did?

presto! i ceased rebellion and disgrace before i was "saved"

 

[mark54]

no....in your doctrine can just move your saved date around until after you're done with porn.

isn't that what you did?

presto! i ceased rebellion and disgrace before i was "saved"

Skinski says God will accept you once the sin has ceased. That means the sin must cease before the Holy Spirit enters your life. For if the Holy Spirit lives in you, you are saved(Rom8:9)

However Paul states:

You however are not controlloed by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you
Rom8:8

Yet Skinski preaches we must not be controlled by the sinful nature, BEFORE the Holy Spirit dwells in us.

It is all about what WE MUST DO, not therefore what God does in us
The same with WE must crucify our flesh, WE must make of ourselvbes a pure heart

 

[mark54]

no....in your doctrine can just move your saved date around until after you're done with porn.

isn't that what you did?

presto! i ceased rebellion and disgrace before i was "saved"

Yes abiding IN Christ is very important, and His friends and followers are the ones who have truly crucified thier flesh once and for in in repentance as commanded!

Tommy wrote the above. Notice, as with Skinsky, the emphasis is on what THE INDIVIDUAL DOES, not what God does in the individual

 

[zone]

Yes abiding IN Christ is very important, and His friends and followers are the ones who have truly crucified thier flesh once and for in in repentance as commanded!

Tommy wrote the above. Notice, as with Skinsky, the emphasis is on what THE INDIVIDUAL DOES, not what God does in the individual

they are white-knuckling cuz they've all been drinking from the same cistern.
and misery loves company.
fear begets fear.

eh....they're welcome to it.
i feel sorry for them in once sense.
later on...down the road...when they find out what they been doin' well...
i guess they are pretty good at repenting so it'll be a cake walk.