Can you Sin and Not Die?

RickShafer · Feb 8, 2013

Holiness is an awesome subject.
Having been on the other side of the debate(in my past life); I see the yearning for pleasing God as
the seminal fact in trying to attain their righteousness. - (by works)
So I judge them not.

mark54 · Feb 9, 2013

1. You see Mark this is theissue, you have this belief that salvation is merely forensic while one can be"entangled in sin" and then rationalise your statement by alludingthat this entanglement is a result of long practiced habit.

This is the very problem I am addressing. Modern Christianity teaches thatactual "salvation" is unrelated to actually being "setfree" from the "bondage of sin."

The issue is that the Bible does not teach what you are saying Mark.
Firstly Skinski I notice youhave not addressed the points I made in my previous post to you. I can only assumethat is because you have no answers to give to those points.
2. As to the above. If I am kind I imagine youfind it very hard to understand the truth of the Gospel. For I repeatedly tellyou that sin shall not be a persons mastyerfor they are not under law but under grace. I can only assume you ignore this,eitherbecause you do not understand it, or you simply wish to cling to your doctrinein effect, that it is what the individual does for God, rather than what Goddoes for the individual. Maybe you are just getting desperate, I cannot say forsure which it is. For continually I stress it takes time through faith inChrist to see the victory over much sin, that is not saying it does not happenSkinski, but that is very different from you saying sin must cease before Godwill accept anyone. If you want to quote my beliefs please quote them honestly.
3.
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You are forced to cling to Romans 7 as being the state of a Christian in bondage. Thus you believe a Christian is "carnal and sold under sin."
What on earth are you on about in the above Skinski. The verses I quoted to you from Rom7:7-11 are speaking of Paul pre conversion, didn’t you know that? Read the text.
BUT WHEN THE COMMANDMENT CAME SIN SPRANG TO LIFE AND I DIED
The commandment came to Paul pre conversion, not post conversion. It seems you either cannot understand what I write, or you are atttempting to deliberately misconstrue it. But I repeat, your Gospel leaves someone in the state of the wretch of Rom 7

How can one be "carnal and sold under sin" and "set free from sin" at the same time. Only if salvation is purely forensic can this be so. This is why the Penal Substitution Model fits so well into your doctrine because Penal Substitution teaches a purely judicial exchange by which an individual enters the kingdom.
Please provide the post of mine where I claimed the wretch of Rom 7 is speaking post conversion. Now please provide it or apologise.

So when the Bible says this...

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

You cannot truly believe it. You believe that if a pornography addict "accepts Jesus" without forsaking that sin because he is still "entangled in that sin" and he dies IN that sin he will still go to heaven because of the "Judicial Exchange" of Penal Substitution.
If you want to keep producing strawmen don’t constantly criticise others for doing the same. I am speaking of victory through faith in Christ. As you are continually trying to turn this round to saying I beleive forever and a day people will remain in the sin they came to God withand not change I have to assume, as you are not stupid, the only thing you care about is being proved right on this website, and you are desperate to keep your beliefs that it is what YOU YOURSELF HAVE DONe, not what God does in you by faith in his son.
Thus the heart purity in Mat 5:8 is MEANINGLESS. To you it must be a purely FORENSIC or PRETEND heart purity. An individual who is still in the bondage of his lusts and thus indulges himself in sexual perversion IS NOT pure in heart.
Answered countless times
BTW James says
Religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this, TO LOOK AFTER ORPHANS AND WIDOWS IN THEIR DISTRESS, and to keep oneself polluted from the world
But you don’t agree with that, for you say the only work God requires of you is to crucify your own flesh and make of yourself a pure heart. Therefore according to James, God does not see you Skinsky with a pure heart.
Look at this scripture...

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

You believe the opposite of that verse. You believe that one can be unholy but CLOAKED with the "imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ" and see the Lord. Thus to you MANIFEST holiness is completely UNRELATED to being a child of God.

Yet the Bible so clearly says this...
I’ve answered your holiness quotes now, plus Rom3:31 and Rom6:14
AS I also told you, your beliefs produce self centredness, I have seen that in your comments on here, and in the church spent in my youth, for whether you admit it or not, it is all about what YOU DO. And it comes across to me as. ‘Look at me, look at what I have done to change myself’
Though granted, you do at times try to wrap it up differently from that

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

While you really believe that a child of God can be "entangled in sin" the Bible says the exact opposite.
I have twice given you Spurgeons words on 1John 3:9. I have also asked you if you are morally perfect, or 24/7 365 days of the year follow after the Spirit at all times. You always refuse to answer. I assume then you do not ceaselessly follow after the Spirit, therefore you sin, does this mean, to interpret John as you are doing you yourself do not know God Skinsky?

- This is your problem, you quote the literal letter from the head while knowing in reality you do not perfectly follow that which you quote and demand to others
  I can quote CLEAR and PLAIN scriptures ALL DAY but you DON'T BELIEVE THEM.
  
  Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
- Quote the next verse too Skinsky, they change by following Paul’s Gospel, which is victory over sin by faith In Christ. You obviously believe victory is instantaneous. The moment a person comes to God, they look to Christ, trust him(though the Holy Spirit cannot yet reside in them) and in that moment of faith all sin ceases. That in effect is what you must believe, it’s ridiculous Skinsky, but you cannot see beyond the literal letter to the heart of what that letter contains.
  
  You believe one can "accept Jesus" and "still obey sin" due them being "entangled in it" but they are FORENSICALLY JUSTIFIED.
- If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker
- That’s what it says Skinski, but you do not understand the new Covenanat, namely Heb10:16&17. The convert wants to see victory over their sin
- I repeat your view, is before a person can be accepted by God, they must trust in Christ for victory over sin, the result is instantaneous, and this has been achieved without the Holy Spirit dwelling in a persons life. I assume you believe that is biblical, please show me where that scripture is written
  
  The problem with your theology is that it does not preach TRUE REPENTANCE.
- More lies Skinsky. But as I said, you responded to none of my previous points to you I spent time writing out. If all you can do is ignore the points put to you, but come back with more questions you have lost the argument
  
  Satan has managed to completely excise Biblical Repentance from the Gospel message.
  
  Now really think about these things and be honest.
  
  You say this...

So you are seeking justification in Christbut evidently a sinner at the same time. If you got run over by a bus the dayafter you accept Christ into your life you are saved, and will goto be with the Lord, but you are seeking justification from being a slave tosin, and being changed from that position that leads to death, to a slave ofrighteousness, which leads to life. And you get from A to B if you like byfollowing the Gospel Paul proclaimed(Rom6:16&17)
But it takes time. However, Skinski has stated more than once that sin mustcease before God will accept someone. I believe he does not understand the newcovenanat to make that statement. A person does not want the sin, but they seevictory over sin by faith(in Christ) Rom1:5 Do you think this happens in onemoment of time? In an instant?
The Bible does not say ANYWHERE that you"accept Jesus into your life and you are saved."

Read the book of Acts for they did not go around preaching "acceptJesus." They preached REPENTANCE PROVEN BY DEEDS.
As soon as you became a Christian do you professyou performed perfect? In reality I know you did not, we all do, but sadly youonly have some of the literal letter, no true understanding of how grace isworked out in a persons life. This is why so many of your churches lack power,and many times only appeal to a certain section of society.

Your doctrine has the Prodigal Son "ACCEPTING Jesus" IN THE PIG PENand thus the reconciliation with God takes place whilst still actively engagedin sin.

The Bible simply does not teach what you are trying to imply it teaches and allyou can do is quote scriptures like "if we find ourselves sinners while weSEEK to be justified" etc. When NONE of those scriptures are teaching thatyou can be reconciled to God while you are still in sin.
Galatians 2:16&17 clearly and unequivocallystates a person is evidently a sinner while seeking to be justified in Christ

The whole purpose of Jesus Christ coming to this world and dying on that crosswas to REDEEM US from the bondage of sin so that we could then approach God forreconciliation. It is the sinful human being who has to change in order forreconciliation to take place, it is not God bending the rules by pretendingthat men are righteous when they are still wicked.

o

Two main differences betrween you and I. I believe victory over sincomes from exercising faith in Christ, for we can put no confidence in theflesh(Phil3:9) Now in the real world, Christians obviously understand faith inChrist takes time to exercise to see the results. It is no more than pie in thesky belief to state what you do. For you must believe it is WHAT THE INDIVIDUALDOES not what Christ does in them for you do not give the individual time tosee victory through faith in Christ. They have to die to self and givethemselves a pure heart immediately or God will not accept them. That is notthe Gospel Skinsky. That is a Gospel of what the individual does, theindividual in themselves can do nothing. Yet you expect all of this to be donebefore the Holy Spirit enters a life
Our second disagreement is. None of us are perfect, at times we allerr and fail as do you too. But the message you continually preach does not inreality allow for this.
I have met no Christian in the flesh, who proclaims perfection. Infact the closer a person comes to Christ, the more aware they are of their shortcomings.
Be careful Skinsky, the measure you use to judge others will be usedto judge you
I speak of victory by faith in Christ, but not perfection in theflesh
You call that anti biblical and get upset. I will quote Paul

NOT HAVING ARIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY OWN THAT COMES FROM THE LAW BUT THAT WHICH IS BY FAITH INCHRIST. THE RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT COMES FROM GOD AND IS BY FAITH
Phil3:9

It is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit ofGod, who glory in Christ Jesus and WHO PUT NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH
Phil3:3

The Pharisees quoted literal scripture to accuse Christ, what wasthe main charge?
He was ignoring bthe law
Steven the first Christian martyr was stoned to death by religious people,one of the accusations? He was ignoring the law
Paul said:
Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision(ie law) why am Istill being opersecuted, in that case the offence of the cross hasd beenablolished
As then as now the same accusations. FGor sin is transgression ofthe law
Yet Christ said this to the people who quoted the literal letter ofthe above:
None of you keep the law, why are you trying to kill(accuse) me
That goes for you too Skinsky

Skinski7 · Feb 9, 2013

zone said:

Jesus was a human being and had all the natural passions and desires of a human being.

Jesus would have even had the natural human passion of sexual desire which by definition IS concupiscence.

Concupiscence is not sinful.

Concupiscence -G1939 - epithumia
From G1937; a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).

The reason people sin is because they YIELD to concupiscence INSTEAD of RULING OVER IT.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jesus was tempted.

Jesus was enticed.

Jesus did not allow HImself to be drawn away by His passions and desires. He still had passions and desires.

Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are.

This temptation is common to man (1Cor 10:13).

Eve has concupiscence (Gen 3:6).

Cain was told to rule over concupiscence (Gen 4:7).

When Paul taught that the law wrought in him all manner of concupiscence he is simply stating that it is through the KNOWLEDGE OF KNOWING RIGHT ACTION that concupiscence is a temptation towards evil practice.

A little baby does not have the intellectual capacity by which concupiscence would be an "evil desire." When one is ignorance concupiscence is simply a natural passion. Hence without law there can be no sin.

Look at the Greek definition and THINK before putting your foot in your mouth like you have done.

Here is the root Verb of the word used on Rom 7:7...

<A-1,Verb,1937,epithumeo>
"to fix the desire upon" (epi, "upon," used intensively, thumos, "passion"), whether things good or bad; hence, "to long for, lust after, covet," is used with the meaning "to covet evilly" in Acts 20:33, of "coveting money and apparel;" so in Rom. 7:7; 13:9. See DESIRE, FAIN, LUST.

Here is the actual word G1939...

<A-1,Noun,1939,epithumia>
"a desire, craving, longing, mostly of evil desires," frequently translated "lust," is used in the following, of good "desires:" of the Lord's "wish" concerning the last Passover, Luke 22:15; of Paul's "desire" to be with Christ, Phil. 1:23; of his "desire" to see the saints at Thessalonica again, 1 Thess. 2:17. With regard to evil "desires," in Col. 3:5 the RV has "desire," for the AV, "concupiscence;" in 1 Thess 4:5, RV, "lust," for AV, "concupiscence;" there the preceding word pathos is translated "passion," RV, for AV, "lust" (see AFFECTION); also in Col. 3:5 pathos and epithumia are associated, RV, "passion," for AV, "inordinate affection." Epithumia is combined with pathema, in Gal. 5:24; for the AV, "affections and lusts," the RV has "passions, and the lusts thereof." Epithumia is the more comprehensive term, including all manner of "lusts and desires;" pathema denotes suffering; in the passage in Gal. (l.c.) the sufferings are those produced by yielding to the flesh; pathos points more to the evil state from which "lusts" spring. Cp. orexis, "lust," Rom. 1:27. See CONCUPISCENCE, LUST, and Trench, Syn. lxxxvii.

Jesus most definitely had concupiscence. It does not mean Jesus was evil or was spotted with sin. It simply means Jesus subjected Himself to EXACTLY the same temptations that human beings are subject to. Jesus was TRULY a man. He was a human being with the Divine Nature and was our example who died on our behalf.

When we die WITH HIM we can be reconciled to God and we can also rule over the passions and desires of the flesh just like He did.

Again by referring to concupiscence as an "evil desire" simply means that it is a "draw" to do that which is forbidden. Human sexual desire for example is a draw to commit fornication or lust in the heart. Yet that desire is not sin, it is simply the natural desire which can be lawfully yielded to within the confines of marriage.

The same word is used (G1939) in Jam 1:14 and is translated to LUST in English.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his ownlust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Look it up please.

Skinski7 · Feb 9, 2013

Mark,

If you don't hold Rom 7:14-28 as the PRESENT walk of a Christian then I apologise for asserting that you do. That was presumptuous and wrong of me to say that.

MOST people I speak with (including pastors) all teach that Rom 7:14-28 is the present Christian struggle in the flesh. It is the one text that is most used by people in defending that yielding to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God is normal and inevitable. It is this passage that they use when answering my questions about continued addiction in professing Christian's who they believe are "saved."

So again I apologise for making that mistake.

Now why didn't I answer every specific point? Well because the fundamental root they are based on is error and I address the fundamental root.

You see this is the problem of people in the church system. They want to discuss "tangents" instead of addressing the root of the problem.

The root of the problem is that sin cuts you off from God. The root issue is that the sin that cuts you off to God is "rebellion" and NOT "erring in judgment."

The root problem is that the modern Gospel makes an ALLOWANCE for rebellion to continue whilst one is forgiven.

Even you Mark plainly assert that one can be "saved" whilst "still entangled in the bondage of sin."

When I have asked you as to whether a pornography addict has to forsake that activity before reconciliation to God can take place and thus forgiveness granted you have made it clear that no that activity does not have to stop.

You believe that "grace" is a cloak for the ongoing yielding to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God.

Thus you don't believe this Scripture...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Any individual who is still "entangled in the bondage of sin" has simply not crucified their affections and lusts in repentance. They have never been broken. This is what I mean that your Gospel negates the teaching of an authentic repentance.

You bring up the Scripture about "pure religion" and "looking after orphans and widows" and I agree that is the pure religion which is simply to LOVE God and others. But that is not the issue I am addressing with modern church theory.

When I speak with other Christian's who have been truly redeemed I speak about many things but that is not my purpose here, rather my purpose is to awaken the conscience of those who have been beguiled by a spirit of error into believing that they are "saved IN sin."

Salvation is "being set free." No-one is saved who has not been set free. Anyone entangled in the bondage of sin is not free and it is extremely dangerous as well as a lie to tell them that they are saved because they "accepted Christ." The grain of wheat must die. Their old man must be crucified. If that did not happen they are deceiving themselves and remain "workers of iniquity."

Your threads completely ignore this fundamental aspect.

Here is your "escape clause"...

You have grace being a CLOAK for the ongoing sin that will stop later.

When does it stop? In a year? A month? 10 years? Never?

This is why the church system is full of people engaged in all manner of sin. They never truly repented and forsook their sin.

They NEVER left the pig pen to return to the Father. Instead they are taught that they are justified IN the pig pen and as long as they TRUST or have FAITH in Jesus then God will clean them up later on at some stage.

Thus they remain in the pig pen and when someone comes along telling them that they MUST leave the pig pen they accuse them of teaching sinless perfection or accuse them of being legalists.

It is not being legalistic to forsake fornication.

The Bible says that no fornicator will enter the kingdom yet you DO NOT BELIEVE THAT because in your mind a fornicator can enter the kingdom is they have accepted Jesus.

Look at this charge,

The Prodigal Son left the pig pen BEFORE he was saved. Leaving the pig pen DID NOT save Him, it put him in a POSITION to be saved. Likewise James teaches...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Yet you deny it. You teach that one can "receive the implanted word" WITHOUT "laying apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness."

You do not understand godly sorrow and repentance and the true brokenness it brings about where a sinner FORSAKES ALL and yields themselves up to God. It's not about being perfect. It's not about not needing to still be perfected. It is simply about the root of sin which is iniquity in the heart having been purged.

In other words the rebellion to God CEASES. A baby Christian is no longer walking their own way in defiance to God.

A person who is still yielding to the flesh in disobedience to God is still in rebellion and bondage.

starfield · Feb 9, 2013

Skinski7 said:

I always saw concupiscence as being sinful. The bible links it with sinful desires.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

1 Thess 4:4-5 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; [5] Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Isn't it the Roman Catholic church that believes it's not sinful?

mark54 · Feb 9, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Evenyou Mark plainly assert that one can be "saved" whilst "stillentangled in the bondage of sin."

When I have asked you as to whether a pornography addict has to forsake thatactivity before reconciliation to God can take place and thus forgivenessgranted you have made it clear that no that activity does not have to stop.

You believe that "grace" is a cloak for the ongoing yielding to thelusts of the flesh in disobedience to God.

Unfortunately Skinski, as I have said many times, you areunable to understand the new covenant. For many years in my youth, I thought asyou do now. Maybe to an even greater degree than you do now. And yet, for me asfor the Apostle Paul the result was disaster. Which makes me wonder how you canhonestly feel that to follow what you do leads to purity of heart and mind. Itled to the opposite for Paul and me. And I know it has for countless others too.I can only believe you are deceiving yourself. But I know how entrenchedsomeone with your beliefs can become.
Yes, I know God will accept people when they are entangledin sin that has held them bondage for many years. I have previously explainedto you that was the case with me, and the victory I saw by believing I wassaved(accepted by God if you like) solely based on Christ dying for my sins.Your way I was a slave to sin, as Paul was in Rm7, but when I turned from yourway, sin lessened its grip in my life. So I know which way gives true victory,for I have lived both ways.
You say I believe grace is a cloak for the ongoing yielding of the lusts of theflesh. And yet, I have told you of the victory grace gave me in that area, thatyour teaching could never give me, so please don't accuse meof wanting to use grace as a licence to sin
I can only repeat Skinski, I know you do not understand thenew covenant, for you do not understand the truth of what Heb10:16&17 states.You cannot to write the above. It is obvious to most you believe in a Gospel ofWHAT THE INDIVIDUAL DOES, not what God does in the individual.
Asfor your strawman of forsaking pornographic addiction (you seem to have a fixation with thissubject.) You tell me, how a person so addicted to that practice can stop it intheir own strength? Please tell me that?
Onlyyou say the individual must cease their sin(not just pornography) beforeforgiveness can be granted by God. Therefore you are saying pornography and allother sin must be dealt with/put aside by the individual in their own strength.Please do not argue this point, for you have admitted the Holy Spirit enters alife at the point of conversion. So you plainly state a person in their ownstrength MUST cease their sin(including pornograhy if they suffer from it)without the prescence of the Holy Spirit in their life. This is what Paulstates
You however are controlled not by the sinful nature butby the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you
Rom8:8
Yetyou are clearly saying a person must not be controlled by the sinful natureBEFORE the Holy Spirit enters their life.
Yousee Skinski, sadly you do not understand the true Gospel. I know that is truebecause of what you write on this website, and because I can look back and knowI had your beliefs years ago, and I did not then understand the true Gospeleither. You have to dismiss the following

Ifall sin had to cease before God would forgive a person/accept them as as saved,Paul COULD NOT refer to the Corinthian church as ‘Brothers’ or ‘The church ofGod in Corinth’ Impossible Skinski as you would accept if you were not soblindly fanatical in your views
Paulin Gal2:16&17 very plainly states that while we seek justification inChrist it is evident we are sinners. Again, you will not accept it.

Paulstates the Christian is not under law. However, you believe a person mustuphold the law before God will accept them as His. That’s a fact Skinsky, and Irepeat you believe a person in effect must uphold the law without the HolySpirit dwelling in them.
Youhave no true Gospel I am afraid
YourGospel I repeat is all of what the individual must do to be accepted by God,the true Gospel is of the victory God brings in the individual by faith inChrist and the sanctification of the Spirit. But you will never accept it willyou.
Foryou do not see what is so plainly written in Rom ch7. You either are blinded tothe truth of the Gospel in error, or in your heart you are desperate for arighteousness of your own. It does not exist Skinski

zone · Feb 9, 2013

Skinski7 said:

oh ya?
tell me how that would have been so?
just for no reason?

arousal for no reason?

looking at women? married? virgins?

thinking about them?

Christ was not only a Man, He was Divine.
He experienced not only things like hunger and lack.....He knows what it is like to be tempted by sinful human beings. Do you honestly believe Emmanuel was tempted in any way sexually by sinners? or in any other way tempted to do or think anything a sinner would think?

what a heretic.

homwardbound · Feb 9, 2013

Skinski7 said:

You are set free from the carnal mind by DYING WITH CHRIST not be mere "belief" in the sense of "mental assent." Biblical belief is an all encompassing state of mind by which we are a DOERs of the word. This is why James writes this...

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

See how the "believing" is connected with "doing." You cannot separate belief from doing. Believing = Obedience.

Believed - G4100 - pisteuō
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Faith = Doing : Read Hebrews 11 and James 2 and you will see faith is connected to ACTION. In other words true faith is ACTIVE. A person with true faith is a DOER OF THE WORD. Faith is not "waiting around for God to make you do it."

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Unbelief = Unfaithfulness = Not Doing = Disobedience

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Unbelief - G570 - apistia
From G571; faithlessness, that is, (negatively) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience): - unbelief.

pisteuō and apistia are opposites. Look at the definitions. Theologians have it wrong when they disconnect "obedience" from "faith" and "believing." They are dead wrong!

Which is EXACTLY what you are doing Homewardbound.

Your example about "apples" and the "ten commandments" is fallacious. I am not talking about the Ten Commandments.

I am speaking about FORSAKING ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS and LEARNING TO DO GOOD.

Those who are Christ's have DIED WITH CHRIST in the baptism of repentance and they have been RAISED UP BY GOD to NEWNESS OF LIFE. All things become new.

A Christian is not someone who "believes in Jesus" and still walks in the flesh submitting themselves to carnal desires in disobedience to God waiting for God to change them. That is a lie.

We are set free from sin by being crucified with Christ whereby the old man is crucified and the body of sin is destroyed. That is what the Bible teaches.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

That old man which yielded to sin is put to death once and for all. Thus we can not live unto God.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

We don't let sin reign in our mortal body. Our body is an instrument which we yield to God as a living sacrifice (Rom 12:1-2).

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The grace of God is the power to live above the dominion of sin. We are no longer sins slave.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Anyone who yields to sin is still a slave.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Christian's don't yield to sin because they have obeyed from the heart the doctrine of Jesus Christ.
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

They have thus been set free from sin and have become a slave of righteousness.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

In the past a Christian yielded their body to sin but not anymore. Now they ought to yield themselves to righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

In other words sin begat more sin but righteousness begats holiness.

One cannot serve sin and be righteous.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Beign freed from sin we yield to righteousness and the end of this is eternal life. The end of those who continue to yield to sin is death.

Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I really don't know how much clearer it could be.

So many people want to believe in doctrines which have them "declared forensically righteous" while they remain a "servant of sin." It's a lie.

Yes Galatians 5:16-26 is true. Paul is teaching how one ought to walk and he gives a strong warning that those who walk in the flesh WILL PERISH.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Again I am not talking about the Law of Moses. I am talking about DOING THE RIGHT THING BY FAITH.

Faith works by love.

Love fulfills the law.

If anyone is still sinning (yielding to temptation and doing wrong) then they ARE NOT walking by a faith that works by love and thus they NEED TO REPENT.

Skinski I beleive and through that I am crucified with Christ and brought back to life by the operation of God the Father as what God the Father alreadydid for Christ as What Paul said was a done issue through the Romans belief Romans 6:1- 6:6.
rom 6:6 being the most important it is a done scenario, I am not workingout my salvation it is worked out by God the Father. And made a citizen of Heaven put back here on the earth as an ambassaor, representing the love, joy, peace, and righteousness in the Holy Spirit of God the father. And all this has nothing to do with me working at it. It was not until I came to the end of the energy of my own flesh that I was set free from the bondage of sin, where God purged it and showed this to me through the finished work of his Son Jesus Christ. It is by belief that one is saved and in this belief God knowing ones heart whether or not they want to actually know Him is when goddecides to show whomever God chooses to know this, otherwise it is a work and no rest. The onlywork I implore anyone to actually do is to work hard to enter his rest and in Hebrews 3 and 4 they never entered his rest because of unbelief. So it does not matter to me if someone says they believe or not, for God knows who does or not and God will set the ones free that really do. So if you know you do and God does as well start trusting for God to show the truth and be set free and rest as God is already rested from the foundation of the world

homwardbound · Feb 9, 2013

cfultz3 said:

Becasue of Jesus Christ the righteous, if it were not for Jesus and his finished work God the Father through the Holy Ghost would have never come to live in you as what happened in the day of Pentecost. Father on the day that one believes in his Son comes immediately to live in you to straighten out error that one has been taught all their lives and renew their mind and it take us to seek or want to know truth and one can only get it from the Spirit of truth, which is the Holy Ghost and you are sealed with the Holy Ghost of promise as in Ephesians 1:13. Only God can break a seal and God does not lie, for he really does love us all. So yes you might still sin here and there and God knows whether or not you feel guilty over any and everyone, so his mercy is ongoig for you training you and teaching you all the way to the meatof the word unto perfection from God's point of view were you are no longer alive yet alive as paul so wellsaid I am crucified never the less I live

cfultz3 · Feb 9, 2013

homwardbound said:

Becasue of Jesus Christ the righteous, if it were not for Jesus and his finished work God the Father through the Holy Ghost would have never come to live in you as what happened in the day of Pentecost. Father on the day that one believes in his Son comes immediately to live in you to straighten out error that one has been taught all their lives and renew their mind and it take us to seek or want to know truth and one can only get it from the Spirit of truth, which is the Holy Ghost and you are sealed with the Holy Ghost of promise as in Ephesians 1:13. Only God can break a seal and God does not lie, for he really does love us all. So yes you might still sin here and there and God knows whether or not you feel guilty over any and everyone, so his mercy is ongoig for you training you and teaching you all the way to the meatof the word unto perfection from God's point of view were you are no longer alive yet alive as paul so wellsaid I am crucified never the less I live

Sorry, I am not understanding your point to your reply. Would you rephrase?

homwardbound · Feb 9, 2013

Skinski7 said:

You see Mark this is the issue, you have this belief that salvation is merely forensic while one can be "entangled in sin" and then rationalise your statement by alluding that this entanglement is a result of long practiced habit.

This is the very problem I am addressing. Modern Christianity teaches that actual "salvation" is unrelated to actually being "set free" from the "bondage of sin."

The issue is that the Bible does not teach what you are saying Mark.

You are forced to cling to Romans 7 as being the state of a Christian in bondage. Thus you believe a Christian is "carnal and sold under sin."

How can one be "carnal and sold under sin" and "set free from sin" at the same time. Only if salvation is purely forensic can this be so. This is why the Penal Substitution Model fits so well into your doctrine because Penal Substitution teaches a purely judicial exchange by which an individual enters the kingdom.

So when the Bible says this...

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

You cannot truly believe it. You believe that if a pornography addict "accepts Jesus" without forsaking that sin because he is still "entangled in that sin" and he dies IN that sin he will still go to heaven because of the "Judicial Exchange" of Penal Substitution.

Thus the heart purity in Mat 5:8 is MEANINGLESS. To you it must be a purely FORENSIC or PRETEND heart purity. An individual who is still in the bondage of his lusts and thus indulges himself in sexual perversion IS NOT pure in heart.

Look at this scripture...

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

You believe the opposite of that verse. You believe that one can be unholy but CLOAKED with the "imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ" and see the Lord. Thus to you MANIFEST holiness is completely UNRELATED to being a child of God.

Yet the Bible so clearly says this...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

While you really believe that a child of God can be "entangled in sin" the Bible says the exact opposite.

I can quote CLEAR and PLAIN scriptures ALL DAY but you DON'T BELIEVE THEM.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You believe one can "accept Jesus" and "still obey sin" due them being "entangled in it" but they are FORENSICALLY JUSTIFIED.

The problem with your theology is that it does not preach TRUE REPENTANCE.

Satan has managed to completely excise Biblical Repentance from the Gospel message.

Now really think about these things and be honest.

You say this...

The Bible does not say ANYWHERE that you "accept Jesus into your life and you are saved."

Read the book of Acts for they did not go around preaching "accept Jesus." They preached REPENTANCE PROVEN BY DEEDS.

Your doctrine has the Prodigal Son "ACCEPTING Jesus" IN THE PIG PEN and thus the reconciliation with God takes place whilst still actively engaged in sin.

The Bible simply does not teach what you are trying to imply it teaches and all you can do is quote scriptures like "if we find ourselves sinners while we SEEK to be justified" etc. When NONE of those scriptures are teaching that you can be reconciled to God while you are still in sin.

The whole purpose of Jesus Christ coming to this world and dying on that cross was to REDEEM US from the bondage of sin so that we could then approach God for reconciliation. It is the sinful human being who has to change in order for reconciliation to take place, it is not God bending the rules by pretending that men are righteous when they are still wicked.

Skinski are you set free, have you completed your task and it sounds as if it is from you. And if you have, then you or anyone else that has can punish every act of disobedience when you have made yourself perfect before God. Mind you I speak of the flesh performing not the Spirit of God. for there are those that do know what God has showed them how to walk circumspectly in the Spirit of Grace which is MERCY.

homwardbound · Feb 9, 2013

cfultz3 said:

You asked this / How then can one who is a child of the rebellion have the Spirit in him while still looking at the darkness for his light?

I think I mis read the ? the first time around and now if one is still not a believer (Rebellion) then he can't. but if he is in the darkness looking for the Light Father through the Holy Ghost will lead them through to the light that starts to unveil in his Son Jesus Christ

cfultz3 · Feb 9, 2013

homwardbound said:

You asked this / How then can one who is a child of the rebellion have the Spirit in him while still looking at the darkness for his light?

I think I mis read the ? the first time around and now if one is still not a believer (Rebellion) then he can't. but if he is in the darkness looking for the Light Father through the Holy Ghost will lead them through to the light that starts to unveil in his Son Jesus Christ

I am in total agreement to that, Homeboy

homwardbound · Feb 10, 2013

zone said:

Zone more over was not Christ actually a life-giving Spirit that came to earth through the virgin Mary and is why no one can be perfect in and of themselves needing the life-giving Spirit of Christ to become innerdependant on Father as Christ so well showed us of our need to beleive and trust in Father as Christ did and showed takiong away the first covenant to establish the second in the beleivers by faith in him and his finished work on the cross

zone · Feb 10, 2013

homwardbound said:

every genuinely saved christian will have this very same witness.
some are struggling to come to this Rest, and as usual, there are others attempting to keep them away from it.

because they have no rest, day or night.
and they do not understand what the Place of Rest is.

He called, but they would not answer.
He said THIS is the place of repose, but they would not listen.

zone · Feb 10, 2013

homwardbound said:

homwardbound,
it really is that simple.

some people just hate this message:

John 3:16
"For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

THAT's how He loved the world.
He already gave His Son.

the end.

homwardbound · Feb 10, 2013

zone said:

And to those that believe SHALL be SAVED period

zone · Feb 10, 2013

homwardbound said:

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

just who are we arguing with here?

homwardbound · Feb 10, 2013

zone said:

all due to unbelief the only thing that Christ never died for is unbelief,and today it is the job of the Holy Ghost to do the work through us, and knows the right words needed for those to come to belief that have not yet. It is this simple, yet I remember when it was not for me when I worked hard to be saved, or to ensure my salvation, now I am at rest for I died to the Law after fighting it for so long knowing the Law was and is just true perfect and Holy, I finally came to the end of the energy of my own flesh fighting the law its righteousness and me no way was or ever will be, I put up my white flag giving up to God, being totally anihilated, I fought the Law and the law won.
You know putting up a white flag we are taught in and of this world we will not give up to the enemy ever, and I think this why we fight with our flesh so hard even if we really truly want to know God personally. But in reality raising one's white flag and giving up to what we have been taught is the enemy is actually not the enemy at all, i think this is where the picket line is at in order to cross over to freedom in Christ one needs to raise the white flag, and in actuality the enemy is trying to keep one from raising their white flag and crosing over to freedom in Christ

homwardbound · Feb 10, 2013

zone said:

Absolutely, it is what it is, reality is reality best to accept it as is than to fight it, Acceptance relieves stress, worry and sickness

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