catholic religion??

[Maynard]

Maynard - you need to read the whole of Rev 12, not just one verse. When you read the whole chapter you will learn who the woman really is. It mentions persecution of the woman in the last days. How is this Mary? Keep reading and you'll see it does not speak of Mary at all, rather the woman described is Israel. Verse 12-17 talks about how the devil will make war against Israel and try to destroy her. It also says the woman will flee into the wilderness and God will protect her.

Note also the similarity between this and the description Joseph gave of his father Jacob (Israel) and his mother and their children (Genesis 37:9-11). The twelve stars refer to the twelve tribes of Israel. So the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel.

Jesus, the son of David from the tribe of Judah, came from Israel. Israel gave birth - or brought forth - Christ Jesus. Verse 5 says that the woman’s child was "a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne." Clearly, this is describing Jesus. Jesus ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11) and will one day establish His kingdom on earth (Revelation 20:4-6), and He will rule it with perfect judgment (the “rod of iron”; see Psalm 2:7-9).

katy,

I read all of it, frequently. We should read all of it and take a good account.

Most of the debate over what the Woman represents is misdirected because it does not take into account the way that Revelation uses symbolism.
The vision contains fusion imagery, in which one symbol is composed of elements from several different things. For example, the four living creatures John sees around God’s throne (4:6–8) are a fusion of elements from the cherubim seen in Ezekiel (Ezek. 10:1–14) and the seraphim seen in Isaiah (Isa. 6:1–5).
Similarly, the priest-elders John sees around the throne (4:4) are numbered twenty-four because they are a fusion of the twelve patriarchs of Israel and the twelve apostles of Jesus, a symbolism which occurs at the end of the book (21:12–14), where New Jerusalem is seen to have twelve foundations with the names of the twelve apostles and twelve gates with the names of the twelve patriarchs. And so on. You get the idea.
Polyvalent symbolism, in which symbols have more than one meaning, also is part of Revelation’s imagery. For example, the seven heads of the beast are said to be both seven mountains (Rev. 17:9) and seven kings (17:10).
The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.

- She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon, and twelve stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which the patriarch Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon (symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers), which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon, and twelve stars symbolize the people of Israel.

- The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, “the rest of her offspring” are those who bear witness to Jesus, making them Christians.

- The Woman is Eve because she is part of the three-way conflict also involving her Seed and the Dragon, who is identified with the ancient serpent (the one from Eden) in 20:2. This mirrors the conflict in Genesis 3:15 between Eve, the serpent, and her unborn seed—which in turn is a symbol of the conflict between Mary, Satan, and Jesus. And of course Eve suffered in child-birth.

- Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus, the child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16), and was "caught up to God and to his throne" at his ascension.


​

Don't forget verse 2 of the scripture you mention: "Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth"

If you believe this is Mary...
Interesting point - part of the curse of sin is pain during childbirth, as noted in Genesis 3:16: To the woman He said:“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.” - so if your religion teaches that Mary could not be suffering birth pain (because of your belief of her Immaculate Conception and no Original Sin), then why do you believe this is Mary suffering in Rev 12:2?

Because the Woman is a four-way symbol, different aspects of the narrative apply to different referents. Like Mary, she is pictured as being in heaven and she flies (mirroring Mary’s Assumption). Like the Church, she is persecuted by the Devil after the Ascension of Christ. Like Israel, she experiences great trauma as the Messiah is brought forth (figuratively) from the nation. And like Eve, it is her (distant) seed with which the serpent has his primary conflict.

Conversely, portions of the narrative do not apply to each referent. Mary did not experience literal pain when bringing forth the Messiah, but she suffered figuratively (the prophecy that a sword would pierce her heart at the Crucifixion). Eve did not ascend to heaven. And the Church did not bring forth the Messiah (rather, the Messiah brought forth his Church).



Woman of Revelation 12

 

[7seven7]

Did you not know that IF 'Mother' Theresa was not born again, through faith alone in Christ's work on the cross, then she is not in Heaven and all her millions of works were meaningless to God? Her works would be called filthy rags.

So because she was a part of the Catholic Church and you think that Catholics can't be "born again" (which I was last year), she must've been doing the work of the devil too. lol Yeh ok. God bless.

 

[BarlyGurl]

So because she was a part of the Catholic Church and you think that Catholics can't be "born again" (which I was last year), she must've been doing the work of the devil too. lol Yeh ok. God bless.

that's a rather unfair escalation seven... why bother tagging "God Bless" on the back side of that sort of dramatized dismissal?

 

[7seven7]

that's a rather unfair escalation seven... why bother tagging "God Bless" on the back side of that sort of dramatized dismissal?

My way of saying that no matter what she thinks of the Catholic Church, God bless her all the same. My praying for God to bless her had nothing to do with my comment. If you have a problem with my comment, then point that out. Leave my prayer out of it.


Now I can see your point about the "unfair escalation". Here's the first part of her comment:
Did you not know that IF 'Mother' Theresa was not born again, through faith alone in Christ's work on the cross, then she is not in Heaven and all her millions of works were meaningless to God? Her works would be called filthy rags.

I thought that this was borderline implying that because she was a Catholic, there's a good chance that she wasn't "born again". The reason I thought this was because this whole thread is about Catholicism. I don't think it was an "unfair escalation" at all. And as a matter of fact, if she meant it in any other way, then I really don't think there was any reason whatsoever for that to have been said, given the context of this discussion. Not a "dramatized dismissal", Barly. Just a reply to a rediculous comment made for the sole reason of showing everyone some sort of evil in the same sentence as the name Mother Theresa. God bless you too.

 

[raf]

i know that was rather long winded but you can go to carm.org to find out more about this and other interesting subjects

Yes we can also go on youtube with videos of super fast talking info-mercial evangelical pastors going on about how the catholic church is working for satan and the pope is the anti christ, and about repitlian aliens.

 

[raf]

Praise God for his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Pray for the deluded souls who attack her.

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

Im catholic and I think what youre saying is wrong if we thought like them we'd be no better than them.

 

[raf]

Catholicism is based on works. There is no work you can do. It is the work of the Holy Spirit that produces fruit. There is nothing else, only faith in the cross and not Mary or any other saint. only Jesus. Argue with that.

If you guys would actually do works for other people than maybe more would convert thats why so many people in different countries are turning catholic because they see the good catholics do in the name of god. I dont see why you people criticize doing works I mean whats wrong with that doing works does not mean give money. It could mean anything really like read the bible, be friendly to your neighbor, help someone who needs help. If youre a christian and you don't do any sort of works of good thats just kind of silly.

 

[raf]

Muslims are going to hell. Mohammad was a pedofile who violated a nine year old girl.

Are you suggesting Catholics should start going derka derka Mohammad Jihad *kaboom*?

No but we wont be like you evangelicals and protestants who bomb abortion clinics, gay bars, participate in public bombings, and murder doctors.

 

[Ugly]

No but we wont be like you evangelicals and protestants who bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors.

Well, we could just as easily say we won't be like Catholics and put pedophiles in charge of our churches and then keep them from legal justice when they get exposed. So do you really have any room to talk? I'm sure you don't appreciate the idea that we just threw an entire religious system under the bus, but yet you feel justified doing the same thing. Amazing how people can have double standards.

 

[7seven7]

Well, we could just as easily say we won't be like Catholics and put pedophiles in charge of our churches and then keep them from legal justice when they get exposed. So do you really have any room to talk? I'm sure you don't appreciate the idea that we just threw an entire religious system under the bus, but yet you feel justified doing the same thing. Amazing how people can have double standards.

Sometimes, as humans, frustration of constant attack gets the better of us. Please forgive him. I'm sure he didn't mean to upset you.
BTW have there never been any pedophiles from any other denominations that have been kept from legal justice? or do you not know?

 

[raf]

Well, we could just as easily say we won't be like Catholics and put pedophiles in charge of our churches and then keep them from legal justice when they get exposed. So do you really have any room to talk? I'm sure you don't appreciate the idea that we just threw an entire religious system under the bus, but yet you feel justified doing the same thing. Amazing how people can have double standards.

Protestants have plenty of pedophiles dont assume its only Catholics heck theres a lot in general they dont have to be religious. I keep hearing about protestant and evangelicals molesting little boys and girls on the news, and constantly sleeping with other peoples wives I guess when you try to tell people its the end of the world its easier to get people to sleep with you eh?

 

[7seven7]

Protestants have plenty of pedophiles dont assume its only Catholics heck theres a lot in general they dont have to be religious. I keep hearing about protestant and evangelicals molesting little boys and girls on the news, and constantly sleeping with other peoples wives I guess when you try to tell people its the end of the world its easier to get people to sleep with you eh?

Protestants have plenty of pedophiles dont assume its only Catholics heck theres a lot in general they dont have to be religious.
How true is that. This is a brilliant point, brother. Sexual predators are most obviously not acting in accordance with whatever religion they come from. Some chose the Catholic Church, others chose Protestant denominations. Is the whole Church they are a part of to be blamed? And yes i know what you're going to say! They shouldn't have hidden the fact. And you're right, they shouldn't have. But I'm almost certain that it wasn't only corrupt clergy in the Catholic Church who did this. I'm pretty sure there would've been a few cases in other Churches too. But notice how the Catholic Church seems to always be in the lime-light and gets attacked by all sects of the world, like muslims, athiests, and our brother Protestants as well. Satan knows that the Holy Catholic Church is the biggest and strongest denomination of Christianity in the world. If he were to bring Her to Her knees, his job of destroying Christianity here on earth would be alot easier. Its sad, but never mind because:
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

 

[Maynard]

Praise God for his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Pray for the deluded souls who attack her.

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

Im catholic and I think what youre saying is wrong if we thought like them we'd be no better than them.

You think that praying for people who persecute Christ's Church is wrong? Well then, raf, what would you have us do instead?

And how exactly do you liken my post to "thinking like 'them' [protestants]"?

You're not making a lot of sense here.

 

[jimmydiggs]

No but we wont be like you evangelicals and protestants who bomb abortion clinics, gay bars, participate in public bombings, and murder doctors.

Database of Priests Accused of Sexual Abuse <--- Case closed, before we even talk about anything that occured before 1900.

I don't really do the whole, "look you've sinned!" thing... I'll let you do the casting.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Now I can see your point about the "unfair escalation". Here's the first part of her comment:
Did you not know that IF 'Mother' Theresa was not born again, through faith alone in Christ's work on the cross, then she is not in Heaven and all her millions of works were meaningless to God? Her works would be called filthy rags.

I thought that this was borderline implying that because she was a Catholic, there's a good chance that she wasn't "born again". The reason I thought this was because this whole thread is about Catholicism. I don't think it was an "unfair escalation" at all. And as a matter of fact, if she meant it in any other way, then I really don't think there was any reason whatsoever for that to have been said, given the context of this discussion. Not a "dramatized dismissal", Barly. Just a reply to a rediculous comment made for the sole reason of showing everyone some sort of evil in the same sentence as the name Mother Theresa. God bless you too.

Okay... so maybe you could just answer the question (bolded)? I didn't read any malice in her post so I have to surmise it is more likely YOU who has inflated the meaning by inserting intent between the lines instead of just reading the words. Lots a people do that... so it isn't just you... but it does tend to dissolve a reasonable discussion... ya know?

 

[jimmydiggs]

LOL!!! Yeh yeh we work for satan.

Glad to see you have recognized the problem, maybe in time you will repent.

Thats why we Baptise our children into God's family at an early age,

You give 'em a bath, sure enough.

thats why we are against abortion and same sex marriage,

So are Muslims, Jehovah Witnesses, and many of the deists of the past. What you believe about social issues isn't what saves you, and it isn't what determines who you work for. The Pharisees opposed these things as well.

that why we have missions all over the world

Preaching a false gospel. Not salvation of the lord, but salvation of man's ability.

thats why we have so many charity organisations,

If you donate money for reasons other than the glory of God, then it is sitll sin whether it's in your pocket or in the offering plate.

thats why...... (i can keep going but you get the point).

"Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy and cast out demons in your name!?"

Its all the work of the devil, champ.

No, he has to havve you to get it done.

Good on you.

The devil ain't good on anyone, don't know why you would suggest it is.

God bless you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Out the side of your mouth. This is so commonly an appearance of righteousness. When Catholics are a minority, they pretend to be nice and loving but when the form a majority they're happy to show their true colors.

A decade of the Holy Rosary for you tonight, mate.

Idolatry accomplishes nothing good.

You go and sin all you like and believe you are saved regardless, just because you say u believe.

This is where you're wrong. I've never claimed I am saved. You have judged wrongly here.

That being said, scripture does not teach that a person can continue on sinning so that grace may abound. Someone does not understand what they are talkin' about.

What a cop-out.

I've never said it, dunno where you're gettin' it from.

You dont have to do anything good according to your theory of salvation because "works mean nothing".

Works aren't meaningless, they just don't make us saved. Works will result from a new heart.

Easy way out buddy.

Look at you, claiming to be so good and righteous. "God, thank you that I am not like him..."

Here on earth anyway.

Not even on earth is it easy. Trials and tribulations abound.

You'll probably get into Heaven before me,

I would think I'd be the one with a longer stint in purgatory after all that holy-roller talk you just gave.

but I think you'll find the shock of your life when you get there.

Most certainly, God is very glorious. I expect to find that he will not be in many ways as I perceived. That being said, we can know what he has told of himself.

And as for the whole "works" thing;

Titus 2:11-14




Trained by Saving Grace

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, [SUP]13 [/SUP]looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.


​Works mean alot to God. Make no mistake!

Sure, he's regenerated us for good works. Being made for good works does not mean that you can merit yourself to salvation.

You just offer up a bunch of menstrual blood to God, try it, but it ain't no Lambs blood.

 

[Iluv_Jesus]

So I woke up today and this was on my mind and I couldnt go back to sleep... so I was raised Catholic but now Im a Christian so I know a little bit about Catholic faith. I still have family members that are still in that faith and I want to inform them but I want to get some opinions before I do cus one gets real offense if you question their beliefs. Anyways so Catholics pray to other saints including the virgin Mary. But in the Bible Exodus 20:3-5 you shall not have no others gods before me.... Wouldnt that be against Gods law to pray to other saints? and with taking communion every sunday, they require that you be baptisted and have your first communion before you part take and that happens usually when your a kid. In 1Corinthians 11:27-32 ( im not going to post it but please look it up) and it talks about how if you take communion in an unworthy manner then you bring judgement on yourself. Now just because I was baptisted ex as a kid doesnt mean as an adult Im right with the Lord. Back then, yes I would go to church and pray every now and then but I wouldnt say I was right with the Lord. So unknowingly I was bring judgement on myself, right? So shouldnt they explain that more to the people that partake in communion, so they dont bring judgement on themselves. When I started going to Christian church they explained it in detail why we should and shouldnt partake in it. Why doesnt the Catholic church do that? Well some may but the one I used to go to didnt. I didnt become Christian till after I was paralzed. It kind of make me think...

You should be happy you have a family that believes in the same Jesus Christ as you do. I don't want to dispute anything you believe. As a protestant or whichever denomination of our great faith in God you belong to, I'll leave you some questions to ponder over.

1. Is it by God's Choice or human being's that people are Christians?
2. Do not all Christians want the same thing or would they be wanting to go somewhere else other than heaven when they pass on?
There are many Staunch Catholics and all of them consider themselves Christian and they follow the same virtues and aim for Holiness and the presence of God in their lives as any Christian would, if they practice Christianity .History shows us that the Church ( meaning all denominations ) were divided and still continue the tradition of division. Christ does not want that. I will say no more.

 

[Maynard]

Database of Priests Accused of Sexual Abuse <--- Case closed, before we even talk about anything that occured before 1900.

I don't really do the whole, "look you've sinned!" thing... I'll let you do the casting.

Oh, you don't cast stones? But you just did! How funny!

There's thousands of stories we can find concerning protestant pastors and sex abuse, too many to count, and by far more than Catholic clergy. Here's a few from just the past few weeks.


Trial of pastor facing sex charge begins

HARLAN, Ky. (AP) — The trial is beginning for an eastern Kentucky pastor facing counts of rape and other charges involving a girl younger than 14.

Caraway is the former pastor of Loyall Church of God in Harlan County. He is charged with rape, sodomy, sex abuse, unlawful transaction with a minor and use of an electronic communications system to procure a minor for a sexual offense.

Trial of pastor facing sex charge begins - seattlepi.com
​

​

FBI arrests pastor on child sex abuse charges in eastern New Orleans

New Orleans - The FBI has arrested a former Missouri pastor wanted on child sexual abuse charges in New Orleans. George Spencer, 48, was arrested Friday on several charges of forcible sodomy of a child and child molestation by the FBI New Orleans Violent Task Force.

Spencer worked as a pastor at Greater Works CME Church in Kansas City.

FBI arrests former pastor on child sex abuse charges in eastern New Orleans | NOLA.com


Pastor facing child sex abuse charges has criminal background

MARSHALL COUNTY, AL (WAFF) - A Marshall County pastor now facing child sex abuse charges in Texas spent nearly a decade in the Texas state prison system before he was hired to pastor a church in Albertville.
41-year-old Mark Allen Green is jailed on a half million dollar bond in Texas and faces sexual abuse and aggravated sexual abuse of a child charges in Ellis and Navarro counties involving two victims under the age of 18.

Pastor facing child sex abuse charges has criminal background - Action News 5 - Memphis, Tennessee


Pastor Pleads Guilty to Unlawful Sexual Contact with a Minor

GALLIPOLIS, Ohio (WSAZ) -- Standing in a courtroom before members of his congregation, a former pastor was sentenced to 15 years in prison for multiple counts of unlawful sexual conduct with a minor.
Young was the pastor at Simpson United Methodist Church in Rio Grande, Ohio.

Pastor Pleads Guilty to Unlawful Sexual Contact with a Minor

Elmhurst Pastor Charged With Sexual Abuse Of Teen Girl

Chicago - Former associate pastor Darin Evans, 41, is being held on $300,000 bond for allegedly sexually assaulting a teenage girl over a period of seven years. Court documents show Evans started the relationship with the girl when she was 16, and the assaults happened in public places, including cemeteries and on church-sponsored youth retreats.

Midday News Links: Former Elmhurst Pastor Charged With Sexual Abuse Of Teen Girl: Chicagoist

Franklin County pastor indicted on sexual torture, child abuse charges

FRANKLIN COUNTY, Alabama -- A former Franklin County pastor has been charged with sexual torture and abuse.
The victim was an 8-year-old girl and that the abuse went on for nearly a year inside Hovater's home in Spruce Pine. The victim's family attended Hovater's church.


Local pastor jailed on sex abuse charges

CHARLESTON, W.Va. - A local pastor is behind bars for allegedly sexually abusing a young female family member over a period of several years.
Jonnie Franklin Winnell, 59, of Gypsum Lane in Elkview, is being held at South Central Regional Jail.
Winnell was charged with three counts of sexual abuse by a parent, guardian and/or a custodian.
Winnell is a pastor at United Gospel Mission on Charleston's West Side.

Local pastor jailed on sex abuse charges� - Cops and Courts -



And that is just a very small sample of those occurring in April. There are countless stories of Protestant pastors sexually abusing children. Too many to count even this month.

 

[scr]

Soon enough those will run out of time to sustain a cordially tolerable façade between Christian and Catholic. The preacher/Church leader seeks to avoid their imminent end. The unavoidable theological clash of the Titans. In a more naïve time this was glaringly revealed when The World Council of Christian Churches assembled in Chicago in '56' for a conference to finally implement The Kingdom of God on earth and the like. Less than one week later the whole thing embarrassingly broke up with heated arguments over who's theology was righteous and just which group was going to be in charge. You can try to hide in your two-faced confused faith all you want, but it will soon pass away accordingly as you're revealed as such. And so The Apocalypse is associated with destruction, when in fact the word means an uncovering, a revealing. And this causes the destruction, suddenly! Watch.

 

[raf]

Just saw a news report some nutjob attacked a catholic church and stabbed 4 people yelling false preacher. Why do you guys do stuff this?