Could Christ sin?

[distinctiveministry]

Wow, we actually agree on something for once.

I brought you together on something! You're welcome

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. Then Christ was and is not like us.

All scripture states as fact is Christ was like Adam. The passage which says he was tempted in all ways does not mean he was born as I am. There is no scriptural evidence which says otherwise.

2. We both have an argument from silence, but my argument assumes no outliers, while yours assumes one. Mine is the logical assumption in the absense of proof, yours is the illogical assumption that necessitates proof.

This is your opinion. It is nothing but pride which states our opinion is logical, yours is not. Again you opened the subject. the burden of proof lies with you! I am just questioning your statement. it is your thread, not mine.

 

[distinctiveministry]

All scripture states as fact is Christ was like Adam. The passage which says he was tempted in all ways does not mean he was born as I am. There is no scriptural evidence which says otherwise.

This is your opinion. It is nothing but pride which states our opinion is logical, yours is not. Again you opened the subject. the burden of proof lies with you! I am just questioning your statement. it is your thread, not mine.

It is not an opinion- anytime there are billions of cases without a single outlier (heck, once you get past about 30 random cases without an outlier it becomes statistically probable that there are no outliers, and thus logical to assume there aren't any), then logic dictates that the claim that there is an outlier requires proof, not the claim that there is not an outlier. Again, not an opinion, but facts about statistics and logic. These facts don't mean Jesus isn't different, they just mean the burden of proof is on the one who claims he is.

As for scripture stating that Christ was like Adam- I agree. But does scripture state HOW he is like Adam?

 

[notIbutChrist]

Originally Posted by notIbutChrist

He certainly was capable of sinning. However He always chose not to

So it is possible for man to be sinless?

In Christ, yes

 

[notIbutChrist]

God did not remove our old nature.

This is a lie, not a mistake. you hasve been corrected, and insist on believing and repeating satan's lie

Paul makes it clear in Romans 7 our two natures (spirit and flesh) are always waring with each other.

No he didn't he explained that because the flesh is sinful it must be killed

it is foolish to think your nature would never win out and be totally defeated 100 % of the time.

According to you, God is a liar, and those of us who believe Him are follish for doing so.

Even Paul claimed he was not sinless, and called himself a wretched man, and asked who would free him.

Thats right, and God did free him, making him no longer wretched, but righteous

His answer. look to the ressurection. When we will all be sinless forever more. Until then. look to Christ.

You will have to post that one. chapter and verse please

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is not an opinion- anytime there are billions of cases without a single outlier (heck, once you get past about 30 random cases without an outlier it becomes statistically probable that there are no outliers, and thus logical to assume there aren't any), then logic dictates that the claim that there is an outlier requires proof, not the claim that there is not an outlier. Again, not an opinion, but facts about statistics and logic. These facts don't mean Jesus isn't different, they just mean the burden of proof is on the one who claims he is.

As for scripture stating that Christ was like Adam- I agree. But does scripture state HOW he is like Adam?

1. Christ was never said to be "like Abraham, Like Paul, or david or moses, He was always said to be like adam.

2. Logic states if Christ is never said to be like any man other than Adam. And since adam was the only human (vice Eve) which was created without the nature to sin. That Christ would be like adam. not like the rest of mankind.


3. End result. Your logic is flawed and is opinion rather than fact.

Adam was given a choice minus the sin nature. To chose to follow God. He chose his desire, minus a sin nature, to sin.

Christ was given the choice to do what Adam did. He on the other hand chose to follow God. not his desire.

 

[distinctiveministry]

1. Christ was never said to be "like Abraham, Like Paul, or david or moses, He was always said to be like adam.

2. Logic states if Christ is never said to be like any man other than Adam. And since adam was the only human (vice Eve) which was created without the nature to sin. That Christ would be like adam. not like the rest of mankind.


3. End result. Your logic is flawed and is opinion rather than fact.

Adam was given a choice minus the sin nature. To chose to follow God. He chose his desire, minus a sin nature, to sin.

Christ was given the choice to do what Adam did. He on the other hand chose to follow God. not his desire.

Christ is said to be like Melchizedek (sp?). Also, saying he is "always" said to be like Adam is misleading, since you are actually referring to one passage.

 

[AnandaHya]

1. Then Christ was and is not like us.

2. We both have an argument from silence, but my argument assumes no outliers, while yours assumes one. Mine is the logical assumption in the absense of proof, yours is the illogical assumption that necessitates proof.

So.... what I get from this statement is that you think you can fly?

it makes as much sense as your first statement.

We do not argue from silence we uphold the truth in Scripture that says JESUS was tempted and yet did not sin... here is it...

Hebrews 4:14-16
New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Did Jesus want to die on the cross? Did He have second thoughts?

Matthew 26

36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while I go and pray over there.” 37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. 38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.”
39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless[e] I drink it, Your will be done.” 43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy.
44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. 45 Then He came to His disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand.”

Was Jesus distressed and sorrowful to know His fate which laid on His suffering and death on the cross? yes

Did Jesus pray that God take this cup from Him? Did He desire NOT to suffer? yes

Did He overcome this desire and allow God's will to happen instead of His? yes

We are commanded to do the same with the aid of the Holy Spirit, we should seek in prayer and humbleness of heart to do always God's will not our own will or desires, to speak God's words of life and love and not our own.

Ezekiel 3:25-27
New King James Version (NKJV)
25 And you, O son of man, surely they will put ropes on you and bind you with them, so that you cannot go out among them. 26 I will make your tongue cling to the roof of your mouth, so that you shall be mute and not be one to rebuke them, for they are a rebellious house. 27 But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD.’ He who hears, let him hear; and he who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.


Whoever can tame their tongue, tames the whole body...

James 3
2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In Christ, yes

Welcome to pharisee ism. If you think you can obey the first two commands 100 % of the time. As John said in his first epistle. You are deceiving yourself and there is no truth in you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a lie, not a mistake. you hasve been corrected, and insist on believing and repeating satan's lie

Its not a lie. If it is, Then Paul lied in romans 7. forgive me if I chose to believe Paul and not you. If you wish to remove romans 7 from your bible and believe satan's lie, feel free.

No he didn't he explained that because the flesh is sinful it must be killedAccording to you, God is a liar, and those of us who believe Him are follish for doing so

Your right. it must be taken down. I fight it every day. Most the time the spirit wins. But I would be foolish to think I never sin.

But no where in scripture does it say it will not be given life by ourselves. Paul made it clear in romans 7 his flesh (old nature) fights against his spirit (given by God) and he struggles. Are you greater than Paul?

And don't give me this crap paul spoke pre salvation. Paul had no spirit pre salvation thus they could n=have never faught!

Your fight is with Paul. not me!

Thats right, and God did free him, making him no longer wretched, but righteousYou will have to post that one. chapter and verse please

1. Paul said he WAS (Present tense) A wretched man. He did not use past tense verbs. God did not make him free of being wretched. nore did Paul think he was free. he continued to run the race, he never claimed to have made it!

2. Read chapter 7 of romans, it is ALL IN THERE!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Christ is said to be like Melchizedek (sp?). Also, saying he is "always" said to be like Adam is misleading, since you are actually referring to one passage.

Hebrews 7:1–3 (ESV)
The Priestly Order of Melchizedek
7 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of peace. 3 He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.



Does Adam have this claim? Does any other man have this claim? Who do you think this king was??



You have any proof yet? Or do you want to base everything on your preconceived ideas and beliefs. OPINION ?

 

[Laodicea]

So it is possible for man to be sinless?

John 15:5
(5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Romans 3:28
(28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What does it mean to be justified?
Exodus 23:7
(7) Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
Zechariah 3:4
(4) And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Can we overcome?
Romans 6:16
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Philippians 1:6
(6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform (finish) it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Revelation 3:21
(21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[Laodicea]

God did not remove our old nature. Paul makes it clear in Romans 7 our two natures (spirit and flesh) are always waring with each other. it is foolish to think your nature would never win out and be totally defeated 100 % of the time. Even Paul claimed he was not sinless, and called himself a wretched man, and asked who would free him. His answer. look to the ressurection. When we will all be sinless forever more. Until then. look to Christ.

In Romans 7 is the Bible speaking about a converted person or an unconverted person
Romans 7:22
(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 8:7
(7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Romans 7 is speaking about the struggle that a converted person has cause an unconverted person has no desire to keep God's law

 

[AnandaHya]

Ummm... EG, I was thinking this verses might be easier to understand then Romans 7, to support the statement that Paul was NOT perfect and looked to the resurrection to achieve perfection and complete adoption into the family of God...

Philippians 3:10-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

Romans 8:20-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

The Holy Spirit is the PROMISE of adoption but is not fulfilled until we are given our glorified bodies upon resurrection. We who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, yet still clothed in this flesh that will be destroyed either by death or the second coming of Christ. Hope is not what is seen but what is not seen and held in the promise of the unseen which is the PHYSICAL resurrection of all God's elect not just the Spiritual resurrection of their souls.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ummm... EG, I was thinking this verses might be easier to understand then Romans 7, to support the statement that Paul was NOT perfect and looked to the resurrection to achieve perfection and complete adoption into the family of God...

Philippians 3:10-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

Romans 8:20-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

The Holy Spirit is the PROMISE of adoption but is not fulfilled until we are given our glorified bodies upon resurrection. We who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, yet still clothed in this flesh that will be destroyed either by death or the second coming of Christ. Hope is not what is seen but what is not seen and held in the promise of the unseen which is the PHYSICAL resurrection of all God's elect not just the Spiritual resurrection of their souls.

Those are excellent vs. When used with romans 7 there should be no question that Paul did not consider himself perfect.

Also could use eph 1 which shows our seal until the day of redemption. If we could be sinless, we would not need a seal, because we could attain perfection.

Far to many verses which prove Paul did not consider himself perfect. But as I said earlier, he continued to run the race.

If Paul could not make it. I would be foolish to think I could make it.

 

[2knowhim]

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Do you think, that His Death, was just His body on that Cross? If you do you've missed it.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Notice it doesn't say Jesus was raised up from the dead, But Christ.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Again, what is His Death all about? It's much more than a body.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Anandahya:
You asked.......And you answered....

Was Jesus distressed and sorrowful to know His fate which laid on His suffering and death on the cross? yes .....Really??

Did Jesus pray that God take this cup from Him? Did He desire NOT to suffer? yes...Dear, Anandahya, you really do not unerstand this cup at all, or what He was asking His Father.


Did He overcome this desire and allow God's will to happen instead of His? yes.....I don't think you understand the will He was talking about, When He said "my will"

So Sad,

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

you have to be careful with a question like this...because it makes it easy to make the mistake of 'mixing' the humanity and divinity of jesus... jesus is 100% human and 100% God...he is not half human and half God or any kind of God-human mixture...

being human jesus had flesh and he was capable of sinning...being God jesus was the definition of righteousness and he could not sin... anything more than that is confusion

 

[AnandaHya]

hmm.....I get the feeling we might have a closet gnostic here but lets see.....

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Do you think, that His Death, was just His body on that Cross? If you do you've missed it. oh please enlighten us oh wise one...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Notice it doesn't say Jesus was raised up from the dead, But Christ. oh maybe not there but here are some that say JESUS was raised from the dead....
Matthew 28
5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said.

Are you one of those who tell us "Christ" does not necessarily refer to JESUS?




Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Again, what is His Death all about? It's much more than a body.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.




Anandahya:
You asked.......And you answered....

Was Jesus distressed and sorrowful to know His fate which laid on His suffering and death on the cross? yes .....Really??

Did Jesus pray that God take this cup from Him? Did He desire NOT to suffer? yes...Dear, Anandahya, you really do not unerstand this cup at all, or what He was asking His Father.


Did He overcome this desire and allow God's will to happen instead of His? yes.....I don't think you understand the will He was talking about, When He said "my will"

So Sad,

you have done nothing but say you think I'm wrong without stating your thoughts or your answers to any of the question set forth.

What is the true purpose of your post?

Why do you think Jesus was distressed and sorrowful?
why do you think He pray as He did?
What do you think the cup refers to?

Mark 14:36
And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.”

 

[2knowhim]

Anandahya:

Please don't get offended, there is no tone of sarcasim in my voice when asking these questions.
They are there to make you ask Him, not me. Because I'm not the one asking.

If you are satisfied with your own answers, then so be it.
I'm only doing what I feel led to do. If you want me to share with you what He has revealed to me on this
I would most certainly do that, but only in PM

And by the way I have no idea what a nostic is.
I've heard the term used but never bothered to look it up.

Bless you, and I do mean it.

 

[zone]

Was Christ fully and truly capable of sin?

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