Could Christ sin?
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When we are in Christ our old master, sin, no longer has any claim over us. What does have some claim is the habits that we formed and the patterns of thought that prevailed when sin was our master. Just because we battle the old nature does not mean we still HAVE the old nature.
People really need to understand the metaphor that Paul is employing in Romans 7. Here he says that he is in constant struggle against the flesh, and yet elsewhere he states that even before his encounter with Christ he was sinless with regard to the Law! If he could lay claim to being a keeper of the Law beofre knowing Christ, then it makes no sense to argue in Romans 7 that he is engaged in a constant struggle with sin. The "flesh" and "spirit" in Romans 7 are metaphorical.
People really need to understand the metaphor that Paul is employing in Romans 7. Here he says that he is in constant struggle against the flesh, and yet elsewhere he states that even before his encounter with Christ he was sinless with regard to the Law! If he could lay claim to being a keeper of the Law beofre knowing Christ, then it makes no sense to argue in Romans 7 that he is engaged in a constant struggle with sin. The "flesh" and "spirit" in Romans 7 are metaphorical.
hi DM.
good morning.
um...no offense: looks like we're off to a rocky start already today.
....just unclear on what you are saying.
- was paul really sinless according to Law?
- has anybody really claimed paul was trying to say in Romans 7 he was 'engaged in a constant battle with sin'?
- are you of the position that Romans 7 was either his former life/or he was describing 'other' sinful men prior to regeneration?
zone
good morning.
um...no offense: looks like we're off to a rocky start already today.
....just unclear on what you are saying.
- was paul really sinless according to Law?
- has anybody really claimed paul was trying to say in Romans 7 he was 'engaged in a constant battle with sin'?
- are you of the position that Romans 7 was either his former life/or he was describing 'other' sinful men prior to regeneration?
zone
A
Question: why do you think Jesus was not capable of sin yet still able to be tempted? Just that He endured the same test and trials we did and did not sin?
But how can it be the same if one says we have a sinful nature or tendency, unless you also believe that upon the being Born Again everyone is given a nature like Jesus Christ and the sinful nature is removed? therefore we can be tempted like Jesus yet sin not.
Yet Jesus was in the flesh and we know the works of the flesh are not good per Galatians 5, would that not imply He underwent the same temptations to sin as we did from His own flesh?
I would not call it a "flesh nature" or a "sin nature" but just having weak flesh that strives against the leadings of the Spirit. which is said to happen until our physical death and eventual resurrection upon the coming of Christ.
what did Jesus mean by these words?
Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Mark 14:38
Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
But how can it be the same if one says we have a sinful nature or tendency, unless you also believe that upon the being Born Again everyone is given a nature like Jesus Christ and the sinful nature is removed? therefore we can be tempted like Jesus yet sin not.
Yet Jesus was in the flesh and we know the works of the flesh are not good per Galatians 5, would that not imply He underwent the same temptations to sin as we did from His own flesh?
I would not call it a "flesh nature" or a "sin nature" but just having weak flesh that strives against the leadings of the Spirit. which is said to happen until our physical death and eventual resurrection upon the coming of Christ.
what did Jesus mean by these words?
Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Mark 14:38
Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Jesus came in the Incarnation absolutely as a flesh man.
for redemptive purposes.
but He is the God-man. not man-God.
being God in the flesh there is no possibility He could have sinful passions aroused >> God abhors sin.
being God in the flesh, he was subject to all the trials and weakness and infirmities we have (including the worst enemy - death), and He did experience after 40 days without food what it is like to face satan and be tempted/tested by him. but He didn't have to have the ability to fall into sin to do what He did.
an infinite purity and divine will has the ability to resist and deflect a finite temptation.
an infinitely pure mind can not possibly be tempted to the point of sin. He was separate from sinners. satan found NO occassion in Him whatsoever.
i wonder sometimes that he wasn't temped to wipe us all out at the First Advent and yet He walked with sinners and loved them. even unto death.
for redemptive purposes.
but He is the God-man. not man-God.
being God in the flesh there is no possibility He could have sinful passions aroused >> God abhors sin.
being God in the flesh, he was subject to all the trials and weakness and infirmities we have (including the worst enemy - death), and He did experience after 40 days without food what it is like to face satan and be tempted/tested by him. but He didn't have to have the ability to fall into sin to do what He did.
an infinite purity and divine will has the ability to resist and deflect a finite temptation.
an infinitely pure mind can not possibly be tempted to the point of sin. He was separate from sinners. satan found NO occassion in Him whatsoever.
i wonder sometimes that he wasn't temped to wipe us all out at the First Advent and yet He walked with sinners and loved them. even unto death.
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P
Yes, he was capable of sin but did no sin that is how he condemned sin in the flesh.
Tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin - this seems to imply that it was possible for him to sin yet didn't.
a study on the word tempt to its root, applied to Christ is test/trial.[/quote]Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God to make reconciliation for the sins of the people For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
In order to be tempted of something there has to be the possibility of falling into that temptation or it wouldn't be a temptation in the first place.
Tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin - this seems to imply that it was possible for him to sin yet didn't.
a study on the word tempt to its root, applied to Christ is test/trial.[/quote]Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God to make reconciliation for the sins of the people For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
In order to be tempted of something there has to be the possibility of falling into that temptation or it wouldn't be a temptation in the first place.
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Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God to make reconciliation for the sins of the people For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
In order to be tempted of something there has to be the possibility of falling into that temptation or it wouldn't be a temptation in the first place.[/quote]
Patience, I think you are driving at the same point on this as I am. Either Christ, with regard to his person, was/is truly like us in every way, or he is not like us. If he is not like us, then there is a whole boatload of theological ramifications that need to be dealt with. If, as you and I believe, he is like us in every way EXCEPT that he did not sin, then it is possible not to sin, even though no one else has or will achieve this. We are not born guilty! Sin is NOT inevitable! We are responsible! And more than anything else, Christ truly is an exemplar that we can strive to be like, since he is like us.
In order to be tempted of something there has to be the possibility of falling into that temptation or it wouldn't be a temptation in the first place.[/quote]
Patience, I think you are driving at the same point on this as I am. Either Christ, with regard to his person, was/is truly like us in every way, or he is not like us. If he is not like us, then there is a whole boatload of theological ramifications that need to be dealt with. If, as you and I believe, he is like us in every way EXCEPT that he did not sin, then it is possible not to sin, even though no one else has or will achieve this. We are not born guilty! Sin is NOT inevitable! We are responsible! And more than anything else, Christ truly is an exemplar that we can strive to be like, since he is like us.
A
Patience, I think you are driving at the same point on this as I am. Either Christ, with regard to his person, was/is truly like us in every way, or he is not like us. If he is not like us, then there is a whole boatload of theological ramifications that need to be dealt with. If, as you and I believe, he is like us in every way EXCEPT that he did not sin, then it is possible not to sin, even though no one else has or will achieve this. We are not born guilty! Sin is NOT inevitable! We are responsible! And more than anything else, Christ truly is an exemplar that we can strive to be like, since he is like us.[/QUOTE]
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so are you saying we dont have a sin nature after we are saved? I understand regeneration gives holy
effections and removes the power of sin and that grace empowers resistance...but are you saying the
sin nature disappears?
Jesus had a nature of Adam prefall. We dont. He was like us in a sense like Adam. Not like us in our fallen
state. So what are the theological ramifications of Christ not sharing in our fallen state? I actually see that
if He was "just" like us in everyway...He would not even have been qualified to be the Lamb of God/kinsman-redeemer.
What do you mean we are not born guilty? We all sinned in Adam and were born under the wrath of God.
We are born condemned. And we all have sinned, that, has a death penalty.
P
Yes, I believe the above. . . .
But. . .while we are in the "flesh" we will sin because our flesh is sinful by nature. Sin, because we are in the flesh, is inevitable. (which is not to say that we aren't responsible)
Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned.
Do we have control over whether we sin or not? Yes. I believe the whole point is that now that we are born again we do not "serve" sin. Sin does not have dominion over us but we all are weak in different areas of our lives and we may fail in these areas. . .the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. (Matt. 26:41) Christ is truly our example - by Him we do see that with the power of the Holy Spirit we no longer have to "serve" sin continuously. Our flesh is imperfect but that spirit that God has placed in us is perfect and that is truly what He looks upon because there is no way to please God in the flesh.
But. . .while we are in the "flesh" we will sin because our flesh is sinful by nature. Sin, because we are in the flesh, is inevitable. (which is not to say that we aren't responsible)
Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned.
Do we have control over whether we sin or not? Yes. I believe the whole point is that now that we are born again we do not "serve" sin. Sin does not have dominion over us but we all are weak in different areas of our lives and we may fail in these areas. . .the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. (Matt. 26:41) Christ is truly our example - by Him we do see that with the power of the Holy Spirit we no longer have to "serve" sin continuously. Our flesh is imperfect but that spirit that God has placed in us is perfect and that is truly what He looks upon because there is no way to please God in the flesh.
No, we do not have a sin nature in the sense that you mean it. When we come to know Christ as Lord and recieve forgiveness from God, we my still have habits and patterns of thinking that are contrary to God's will from our years of slavery to sin, but sin is no longer our master. Read my post from a couple of days ago titled "Slavery".
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God to make reconciliation for the sins of the people For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
In order to be tempted of something there has to be the possibility of falling into that temptation or it wouldn't be a temptation in the first place.[/quote]
in all things : so did He have a sin nature? any possibility of lusts of the flesh? impossible. Emmanuel.
if you're walking into walmart one day and a drug dealer offers you dope: you have just been tested/tempted.
if you abhor drugs, you were not tempted in the sense of the english word.
please just do a word search and see that language matters.
scripture is clear satan the archtempter had NOTHING in Christ. absolutely no possiblity of causing Him to sin. none. yet He was tempted/tested. He knows what it is like for us, we who are fallen sinners.
why do we think God had to come Himself do make the great exchange?
was there any possibility The Plan could fail?
take a look at His agony in the garden....sweating blood. why? fear of dying? tempted to bail on the Plan?
or knowing He was about to bear the full weight of the wrath of God for the sins of the world?
imagine a heap of sins: ever concievable sin committed from Eden to the last day piled in one monstrous heap.: imagine the weight of the wrath.
~
but Christ is Deity. we are not. even after the new birth, we are NOT DEITY. that's why we need an High Priest.
we have SARX: we are not able yet to love perfectly (for example).
so the sinless advocates are deluded. they make a mockery of God's Righteousness and the imputation.
In order to be tempted of something there has to be the possibility of falling into that temptation or it wouldn't be a temptation in the first place.[/quote]
in all things : so did He have a sin nature? any possibility of lusts of the flesh? impossible. Emmanuel.
if you're walking into walmart one day and a drug dealer offers you dope: you have just been tested/tempted.
if you abhor drugs, you were not tempted in the sense of the english word.
please just do a word search and see that language matters.
scripture is clear satan the archtempter had NOTHING in Christ. absolutely no possiblity of causing Him to sin. none. yet He was tempted/tested. He knows what it is like for us, we who are fallen sinners.
why do we think God had to come Himself do make the great exchange?
was there any possibility The Plan could fail?
take a look at His agony in the garden....sweating blood. why? fear of dying? tempted to bail on the Plan?
or knowing He was about to bear the full weight of the wrath of God for the sins of the world?
imagine a heap of sins: ever concievable sin committed from Eden to the last day piled in one monstrous heap.: imagine the weight of the wrath.
~
but Christ is Deity. we are not. even after the new birth, we are NOT DEITY. that's why we need an High Priest.
we have SARX: we are not able yet to love perfectly (for example).
so the sinless advocates are deluded. they make a mockery of God's Righteousness and the imputation.
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A
mmm so you have issues with the original sin doctrine?
truthfully I have issues with it too. Don't really understand it. what really was the ramification of Adam and Eve's actions in the garden? how does sin enter into the equation? for the wages of sin are death is that what the punishment for humanity is even if they do not sin (not that anyone has done this but Jesus Christ), they will die? For even Jesus died?
I'm so used to think of babies as innocent.
But I have been researching and studying it and found these Bible verses. If you aren't still mad at me, tell me what you think of them....
Psalm 58:3
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Psalm 22:10
I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother’s womb You have been My God.
so you see it says from birth.....hmmm
anyways back to the topic..I believe that Jesus was tempted and he was enticed but He overcame those desires and did not give birth to sin for He automatically rejected anything that went against the will of GOD.
However I think we have a problem because we do not know in full as Jesus did. We only know in part and we try our best to follow Jesus and overcome and not allow any desire that is not from God to entice us away but that does not always happen. that is why we need Jesus as our mediator and intercessor because He knows the limitations this flesh has upon our ability to obey. however He had an advantage over us because HE was in Heaven before He was born on Earth and knew God's plan and what it means to be in true obedience and Love.
James 1:14-16
New King James Version (NKJV)
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
dinner time sorry if it doesn't make sense.
truthfully I have issues with it too. Don't really understand it. what really was the ramification of Adam and Eve's actions in the garden? how does sin enter into the equation? for the wages of sin are death is that what the punishment for humanity is even if they do not sin (not that anyone has done this but Jesus Christ), they will die? For even Jesus died?
I'm so used to think of babies as innocent.
But I have been researching and studying it and found these Bible verses. If you aren't still mad at me, tell me what you think of them....
Psalm 58:3
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Psalm 22:10
I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother’s womb You have been My God.
so you see it says from birth.....hmmm
anyways back to the topic..I believe that Jesus was tempted and he was enticed but He overcame those desires and did not give birth to sin for He automatically rejected anything that went against the will of GOD.
However I think we have a problem because we do not know in full as Jesus did. We only know in part and we try our best to follow Jesus and overcome and not allow any desire that is not from God to entice us away but that does not always happen. that is why we need Jesus as our mediator and intercessor because He knows the limitations this flesh has upon our ability to obey. however He had an advantage over us because HE was in Heaven before He was born on Earth and knew God's plan and what it means to be in true obedience and Love.
James 1:14-16
New King James Version (NKJV)
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
dinner time sorry if it doesn't make sense.
P
in all things : so did He have a sin nature? any possibility of lusts of the flesh? impossible. Emmanuel.
if you're walking into walmart one day and a drug dealer offers you dope: you have just been tested/tempted.
if you abhor drugs, you were not tempted in the sense of the english word.
please just do a word search and see that language matters.
scripture is clear satan the archtempter had NOTHING in Christ. absolutely no possiblity of causing Him to sin. none. yet He was tempted/tested. He knows what it is like for us, we who are fallen sinners.
why do we think God had to come Himself do make the great exchange?
was there any possibility The Plan could fail?
take a look at His agony in the garden....sweating blood. why? fear of dying? tempted to bail on the Plan?
or knowing He was about to bear the full weight of the wrath of God for the sins of the world?
imagine a heap of sins: ever concievable sin committed from Eden to the last day piled in one monstrous heap.: imagine the weight of the wrath.
~
but Christ is Deity. we are not. even after the new birth, we are NOT DEITY. that's why we need an High Priest.
we have SARX: we are not able yet to love perfectly (for example).
so the sinless advocates are deluded. they make a mockery of God's Righteousness and the imputation.[/quote]
All I know is that the word of God says he was tempted in all things as we are - and I can't go beyond that. In order to feel our infirmities - our weaknesses - this would have had to been true or else he wouldn't know what it was like to be tempted.
I wonder why is it recorded in scripture that he was tempted of Satan?
BTW, I did research the word tempted and I know what the root means and one of the definitions is: to experience; learn to know by experience. This definition would go along with Hebrew 4:15 - he experienced being tempted so that he could feel our infirmities.
Christ partook of flesh and blood - he partook of flesh and blood to experience the things we experience.
if you're walking into walmart one day and a drug dealer offers you dope: you have just been tested/tempted.
if you abhor drugs, you were not tempted in the sense of the english word.
please just do a word search and see that language matters.
scripture is clear satan the archtempter had NOTHING in Christ. absolutely no possiblity of causing Him to sin. none. yet He was tempted/tested. He knows what it is like for us, we who are fallen sinners.
why do we think God had to come Himself do make the great exchange?
was there any possibility The Plan could fail?
take a look at His agony in the garden....sweating blood. why? fear of dying? tempted to bail on the Plan?
or knowing He was about to bear the full weight of the wrath of God for the sins of the world?
imagine a heap of sins: ever concievable sin committed from Eden to the last day piled in one monstrous heap.: imagine the weight of the wrath.
~
but Christ is Deity. we are not. even after the new birth, we are NOT DEITY. that's why we need an High Priest.
we have SARX: we are not able yet to love perfectly (for example).
so the sinless advocates are deluded. they make a mockery of God's Righteousness and the imputation.[/quote]
All I know is that the word of God says he was tempted in all things as we are - and I can't go beyond that. In order to feel our infirmities - our weaknesses - this would have had to been true or else he wouldn't know what it was like to be tempted.
I wonder why is it recorded in scripture that he was tempted of Satan?
BTW, I did research the word tempted and I know what the root means and one of the definitions is: to experience; learn to know by experience. This definition would go along with Hebrew 4:15 - he experienced being tempted so that he could feel our infirmities.
Christ partook of flesh and blood - he partook of flesh and blood to experience the things we experience.
okay.
so the word infirmities and weaknesses.
any thought word or deed in Him as a result of experiencing/knowing temptations related to knowing those experiences were not sin.
so again, though He experienced/knew the weakness of a human body (and human nature, though undefiled) without food for 40 days; face to face with the devil, He knew/experienced the devil tempting/testing Him.
but the devil found nothing in Him.
because He was tempted (by someone or something) does not mean He was tempted (to do, say or think something sinful), neither does scripture say He had to have the capacity to do so (experience sin in Himself....He certainly experienced living in the midst of it).
though He partook of flesh and blood He never experienced sin, nor the temptation to sin. not possible. Jesus was more than just a man.
so the word infirmities and weaknesses.
any thought word or deed in Him as a result of experiencing/knowing temptations related to knowing those experiences were not sin.
so again, though He experienced/knew the weakness of a human body (and human nature, though undefiled) without food for 40 days; face to face with the devil, He knew/experienced the devil tempting/testing Him.
but the devil found nothing in Him.
because He was tempted (by someone or something) does not mean He was tempted (to do, say or think something sinful), neither does scripture say He had to have the capacity to do so (experience sin in Himself....He certainly experienced living in the midst of it).
though He partook of flesh and blood He never experienced sin, nor the temptation to sin. not possible. Jesus was more than just a man.
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