Did the LORD Violate Human Free Will???

[SeaBass]

Don't think so.

It's not about choices, it's about preference.
As long as I am doing what I prefer, my free will is not violated.


Nope. . .and therein lies your problem, you do not understand the meaning of free will.

Review my post above, and the others I have presented to get up to speed.

Freewill is NOT someone forcing you to do "X" and you just happen to like "X".
What happens if you do not prefer "X"?

What if God predetermined hell for me and I do not prefer what God chose for me?

As I asked before: If God predestined that I will be lost and I cannot do anything to change/undo this choice of God, and I have no choice in the matter myself, then were is my freewill at in this?

 

[ForthAngel]

Freewill is NOT someone forcing you to do "X" and you just happen to like "X".
What happens if you do not prefer "X"?

What if God predetermined hell for me and I do not prefer what God chose for me?

As I asked before: If God predestined that I will be lost and I cannot do anything to change/undo this choice of God, and I have no choice in the matter myself, then were is my freewill at in this?

You misunderstand free will. You still have too many verses to contend with that can't be explained off in some way.

Ephesians 2
2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

John 6:37-39
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

I could go on, but just these passages alone make free will as defined by some an impossibility when pitted against scripture and the biblical definition of man's free will. This does not mean God forces us to sin, but he had to have known mankind would fall before he created us because we know the gospel is eternal and was before creation. This makes it predestined no matter how you try and look at it. The only way it wouldn't be predestiny is if God had no idea of the outcome of his own creation which makes God capable of error, which carried out to it's logical conclusion leads to a world of problems with the Christian faith. This is so that God's glory would be magnified through his perfect justice, his perfect wrath, his perfect grace, his perfect mercy, his perfect love, his perfect sacrifice, and his perfect patience. It all boils down to God's glory, not what we as created humans feel like we deserve.

If all have fallen short and none are righteous, and none of us deserve his mercy, then why such an issue with him choosing some to save to show his grace to that they may glorify him for it? The free will thing always boils down to this and that is that people somehow think they deserve his mercy and his grace and this is not true in the least. We are his creation and he is our creator. He will do with us as he pleases and who are we to argue back?

 

[Elin]

It's not about choices, it's about preference.

As long as I am doing what I prefer, my free will is not violated.

You show again that you do not understand the meaning of free will.

Review my post above, and the others I have presented to get up to speed.

Freewill is NOT someone forcing you to do "X" and you just happen to like "X".
What happens if you do not prefer "X"?

Irrelevant to the discussion, which is about the causing of one to prefer it
not being a violation of free will.

If God acts within your disposition causing you to prefer it, then you will prefer it.
If you prefer it, then your free will is not violated.

Think more on the meaning of preference in the definition of Biblical fee will; i.e.,

"ability/freedom to choose what I prefer without constraint (force)."

 

[SeaBass]

You misunderstand free will. You still have too many verses to contend with that can't be explained off in some way.

Ephesians 2
2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.






I could go on, but just these passages alone make free will as defined by some an impossibility when pitted against scripture and the biblical definition of man's free will. This does not mean God forces us to sin, but he had to have known mankind would fall before he created us because we know the gospel is eternal and was before creation. This makes it predestined no matter how you try and look at it. The only way it wouldn't be predestiny is if God had no idea of the outcome of his own creation which makes God capable of error, which carried out to it's logical conclusion leads to a world of problems with the Christian faith. This is so that God's glory would be magnified through his perfect justice, his perfect wrath, his perfect grace, his perfect mercy, his perfect love, his perfect sacrifice, and his perfect patience. It all boils down to God's glory, not what we as created humans feel like we deserve.

If all have fallen short and none are righteous, and none of us deserve his mercy, then why such an issue with him choosing some to save to show his grace to that they may glorify him for it? The free will thing always boils down to this and that is that people somehow think they deserve his mercy and his grace and this is not true in the least. We are his creation and he is our creator. He will do with us as he pleases and who are we to argue back?

There was nothing in any of the passages you listed showing man has no freewill. I won't take the time to address all of them so I will address the first one listed from Eph 2:

----Were made children of wrath...in post # I showed they were not born that way against their will e choose to become children of wrath by choosing to walk/live in sin.


----those Ephesians that chose to obey the gospel by choosing to be baptized, then God made them alive with Christ. Again, they choose to be baptized and become Christians not something God forced them to do.


----salvation is not the doing of man, but the gift of God. Nothing here that undermines man's freewill.


----God before hand predetermined Christian would walk in good works. God did not predetermine who would or would not be Christians, man chooses that and those that choose to become Christians and remain saved will walk in good works. Of course a Christian can choose to quit walking in good works and fall away becoming lost.

 

[SeaBass]

Irrelevant to the discussion, which is about the causing of one to prefer it
not being a violation of free will.

If God acts within your disposition causing you to prefer it, then you will prefer it.
If you prefer it, then your free will is not violated.

Think more on the meaning of preference in the definition of Biblical fee will; i.e.,

"ability/freedom to choose what I prefer without constraint (force)."

There is no causing with freewill.

You cannot force someone to prefer "X" and then claim that person freely chose to prefer "X".

The questions still remain:

What if God predetermined hell for me and I do not prefer what God chose for me?

As I asked before: If God predestined that I will be lost and I cannot do anything to change/undo this choice of God, and I have no choice in the matter myself, then were is my freewill at in this?

 

[tribesman]

The phrase "by nature the children of wrath" does not mean those Ephesians were born that way against their will.

It does mean that they were under God's wrath, dead in trespasses and sins, even as others, including the apostle himself, prior to regeneration. See context. So it is clear in context that it is a general statement, not only concerning the ephesians but mankind as a whole. As often, you take scripture out of context, using whatever means you can find to press your interpretation/idea into the text. Seen in context Ephesians 2 is a masterpiece of explaining the state of fallen man and how God saves him, totally monergistically.

 

[SeaBass]

There was nothing in any of the passages you listed showing man has no freewill. I won't take the time to address all of them so I will address the first one listed from Eph 2:

----Were made children of wrath...in post # I showed they were not born that way against their will e choose to become children of wrath by choosing to walk/live in sin.

Post #99..........

 

[SeaBass]

It does mean that they were under God's wrath, dead in trespasses and sins, even as others, including the apostle himself, prior to regeneration. See context. So it is clear in context that it is a general statement, not only concerning the ephesians but mankind as a whole. As often, you take scripture out of context, using whatever means you can find to press your interpretation/idea into the text. Seen in context Ephesians 2 is a masterpiece of explaining the state of fallen man and how God saves him, totally monergistically.

They chose to sin and not made that way by God against their will. See my post #99, they "kept on making yourselves children of wrath".

God does not force men to be sinners and be lost making God culpable for the lost.

 

[tribesman]

They chose to sin and not made that way by God against their will. See my post #99, they "kept on making yourselves children of wrath".

God does not force men to be sinners and be lost making God culpable for the lost.

Not "made" or "forced", but through inheritance.

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

[SeaBass]

Not "made" or "forced", but through inheritance.

Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

"for that all have sinned" men CHOOSE to sin

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Does not say David was born a sinner.

Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

It does not say they were BORN astray but they GO astray showing personal culpability.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

"For all have sinned" for they choose to sin.

--------------------------------


Jn 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

The wrath of God is upon those that choose to obey not and not upon those that choose to believe. Therefore God's wrath was upon those Ephesians for they, before becoming Christians, chose to sin, they chose to walk according to the course of tis world, they chose to live a life style fulfilling the flesh.

 

[tribesman]

Romans 5:12 is clear on how sin entered all of mankind. Has nothing to do with choice. It works "natural" so to speak. Passed on through lineage, if you will.

Job.14

[4] Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

[h=3]Jer.13[/h][23] Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Maybe you missed biology class?

 

[ForthAngel]

There was nothing in any of the passages you listed showing man has no freewill. I won't take the time to address all of them so I will address the first one listed from Eph 2:

----Were made children of wrath...in post # I showed they were not born that way against their will e choose to become children of wrath by choosing to walk/live in sin.


----those Ephesians that chose to obey the gospel by choosing to be baptized, then God made them alive with Christ. Again, they choose to be baptized and become Christians not something God forced them to do.


----salvation is not the doing of man, but the gift of God. Nothing here that undermines man's freewill.


----God before hand predetermined Christian would walk in good works. God did not predetermine who would or would not be Christians, man chooses that and those that choose to become Christians and remain saved will walk in good works. Of course a Christian can choose to quit walking in good works and fall away becoming lost.

Can you give me scripture that says choosing to be baptized prompts God to save someone? As far as I know, baptism follows faith, not the other way around.

No one here is denying that man has a will. We are attempting to define it according to scripture and not our own preconceived notions. There is one issue with what you said about God not predetermining who would be Christians and that is that scripture says that isn't true:

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

This passage is crystal clear. You also say that a Christian can fall away and become lost. By lost do you mean unsaved? If that is what you mean, scripture also denies this claim and that statement undermines God's power and makes him out to be a liar:

John 6:37-39
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

But that is not the debate here. No one is denying that man has a will. But how free is that will? It is free within it's confines but it is not without limits. God did not predetermine anyone to sin in the way that you think it means. He knew already who would be his and who wouldn't. He knew mankind would fall but created them anyway. It is therefore predestiny by definition. We are all guilty before God before he saves us. All of us. No one deserves salvation! No one can save themselves by choice or by nature. It is an act of God's own will, not human effort. It's God who calls, it's God who gifts faith, It's by God's grace and effort. We can do nothing to please him apart from his own intervention.

John 15:5
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Romans 8:8
8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[SeaBass]

Romans 5:12 is clear on how sin entered all of mankind. Has nothing to do with choice. It works "natural" so to speak. Passed on through lineage, if you will.


Job.14

[4] Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Jer.13

[23] Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.



Maybe you missed biology class?

If these verses say men are born sinners then Mary gave birth to a sinner. So that idea is to be rejected.

In Job 14:1-2 Job is speaking poetically about the frailty, short lived state of man and is amazed v3 that God would look upon such a frail, weak man and asking God's judgment be merciful to such a frail, weak man and v4 asks that God not demand that a weak, frail unclean man as Job can make himself clean.

Jer 13:23 is speaking about those that would not repent, see verse 10 and 11. Israel remained in sin for so long becoming so hardened they could not repent as a leopard cannot change its spots.

 

[SeaBass]

Can you give me scripture that says choosing to be baptized prompts God to save someone? As far as I know, baptism follows faith, not the other way around.

Acts 2:38; Mk 16:16; 1 Pet 3:21 are all of God's word that says baptism saves and God cannot lie so baptism saves as God says it does.

Eph 2:8-------faith>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet 3:21-----baptism>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then a saving faith INCLUDES baptism.

No one here is denying that man has a will. We are attempting to define it according to scripture and not our own preconceived notions. There is one issue with what you said about God not predetermining who would be Christians and that is that scripture says that isn't true:



This passage is crystal clear. You also say that a Christian can fall away and become lost. By lost do you mean unsaved? If that is what you mean, scripture also denies this claim and that statement undermines God's power and makes him out to be a liar:





But that is not the debate here. No one is denying that man has a will. But how free is that will? It is free within it's confines but it is not without limits. God did not predetermine anyone to sin in the way that you think it means. He knew already who would be his and who wouldn't. He knew mankind would fall but created them anyway. It is therefore predestiny by definition. We are all guilty before God before he saves us. All of us. No one deserves salvation! No one can save themselves by choice or by nature. It is an act of God's own will, not human effort. It's God who calls, it's God who gifts faith, It's by God's grace and effort. We can do nothing to please him apart from his own intervention.

Eph 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,"

The "us" refers to the group 'Christian' not certain individuals. God predetermined the group Christian would be in Christ and men can choose to be a Christian or not. God did not predetermine what individuals would or would not be in this group.

The passage says nothing about God foreknowing certain individuals to be saved unconditionally. Instead the context says God foreknew certain traits, those traits being "in Him", "holy and without blame" and being called "sons". So anyone that chooses to become a Christian will take on these foreknown traits/characteristics.


=========================


Jn 6:37-39 Who are the ones God gives to Christ? Does God just unconditionally, randomly choose men to give to Christ? No.

v37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

The ones God gives to Christ are the ones that are to be saved...on the condition that continue to come to Christ as the second clause states

" and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" The verb "cometh" is present tense so as long as one CONDITIONALLY continues to come to Christ then Christ will in no wise cast out. "Cometh" is also middle deponent meaning men do the action, men of his own will cometh to Christ. Men of their own will choose to come and can of their own will choose to quit coming to Christ.

=======================

1 Pet 1:2 is talking about the group called 'elect' not certain individuals unconditionally. God foreknew and predestined a group called "Christian" "elect". God never foreknew, predestined certain individuals to be saved. but foreknew the group and individuals must choose to be in that foreknown predestined group to be saved.

====================

God's foreknowledge does not demand predestination. Just because God foreknows what will happen does not mean He predestined it to happen. That idea makes God culpable for all the evil that takes place. God foreknows what men will choose but does not predetermine men's choices.

 

[forsha]

"Babes" is a reference to the apostles, they were 'innocent' in their thinking for they had not had their minds spoiled by philosophies (wise & prudent) of men. Jesus was thankful that God miraculously revealed His word to these inspired apostles for them to take and preach that word and not to those men that have been tainted by worldly pride, 'intellectual arrogance".

These apostles are the 'spiritual man' of 1 Cor 2 that were chosen to receive miraculously words form the HS and wrote those words down whereby the rest of us can read and understand those words, Eph 3;3,4.

All scriptures must harmonize before you can ever understand the truth. It amazes me how some will go to great efforts to try to get around the simple truths of the wording of the scriptures to make them fit in with their false understanding of the scriptures. It's kind of like a puzzle, if you try to squeeze the ear of one piece in where it is not supposed to go, the whole puzzle will never be finished. I have seen some pretty bad misinterpretations of the scriptures, but I feel that you have had to stretch your interpretation of these scriptures to great lengths. If you try to make the scriptures fit that says that man has to have a part in his eternal salvation, you will have to distort many more scriptures. Your puzzle has way too many squeezed ears.

 

[Jeff_56]

"Babes" is a reference to the apostles, they were 'innocent' in their thinking for they had not had their minds spoiled by philosophies (wise & prudent) of men. Jesus was thankful that God miraculously revealed His word to these inspired apostles for them to take and preach that word and not to those men that have been tainted by worldly pride, 'intellectual arrogance"........

yahshua never once said the apostles were 'innocent' to start with.

shaul certainly wasn't 'innocent', yet yahweh called and chose him.

no, it's entirely wrong, not having the spirit of yahweh yet, apparently(for who knows but yahweh?!), or breathed on by him, or otherwise permitted,

as the education of men DOES NOT HELP MEN get closer in any way to god......

because little children gladlly accept yahshua and his word ,

while educated dingbats ,

back then as well as all over the earth today, REJECT YAHSHUA HAMASHIACH, (jesus the only messiah savior king)

and even go around KILLING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND BABIES "in his name" (as in the inquistion, which btw is STILL GOING).

 

[forsha]

Again, Acts 22:22 why/how would those in this context be angry at Paul and want Paul to be done away if they did not understand Paul's sermon?

Mt 21:45 "When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them."
These chief priests and Pharisees hated Christ, they were Christ's enemies yet they could understand Jesus' sermon.

---------------------------------------------------------

The problem you are having with the context of 1 Cor 2 is you are trying to intertwine Calvinism into it.

The facts from 1 Cor 2 are:

1) You do not know what is in the mind of God unless God reveals what is in His mind to you, 1 Cor 2:11.

2) therefore in order for God to reveal what is in His mind to you, "spiritual men" were chosen who were the inspired writers of the bible. God gave them the miraculous ability to receive words from the HS (1 Cor 2:13) and these inspired writers wrote those words down so you can then read those words and know what is in the mind of God.

Some men read those words written down by those inspired writers, understand those words and believe and accept those words.

Yet other men, the carnal man, reads those words, UNDERSTANDS those words but chooses to NOT believe/accept those words. How/why would carnal men choose not to believe/accept those words if they could not even understand what those words were about? The two examples I gave above were carnal men UNDERSTANDING those words, but chose to reject, not believe/not accept those words.

Jesus said that he came unto his own (Jews) and they believed him not. Some of those Jews that were set on crucifying Jesus were born of the Spirit, but refused to believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and their savior. John 12:47, And if any man hear my words, AND BELIEVE NOT, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the WORLD, but to save the WORLD. The word "world" in this verse is the same world that is in John 3:16, which, according to Thayer's Greek interpretation, means "pertaining to believers only". Just as many of God's children who do not understand what Christ did for them on the cross does not mean that the fact is that He secured their eternal salvation, without the loss of even one, John 6:39. History tells us that the first American Indians, before anyone came over to tell them that there is a God, yet some of them are recorded to have believed in the great white Spirit. This indicates to me, that in order to believe this, they were already born of the Spirit, having not heard of God or his Son.

 

[Elin]

It's not about choices, it's about preference.

As long as I am doing what I prefer, my free will is not violated.

You show again that you do not understand the meaning of free will.

Review the posts I have presented to get up to speed.

Freewill is NOT someone forcing you to do "X" and you just happen to like "X".
What happens if you do not prefer "X"?

Irrelevant to the discussion, which is about the causing of one to prefer it
not being a violation of free will.

If God acts within your disposition causing you to prefer it, then you will prefer it.
If you prefer it, then your free will is not violated.

Think more on the meaning of preference in the definition of Biblical fee will; i.e.,

"ability/freedom to choose what I prefer without constraint (force)."

There is no causing with freewill.

You don't understand the definition of free will.
Review and think on it.

You cannot force someone to prefer "X" and then
claim that person freely chose to prefer "X".

It's not about choosing to prefer, it's about actually preferring naturally because of your disposition.

I don't choose to prefer comfort to misery, it is what I actually prefer naturally because of who I am.

When God causes you to prefer something, you don't choose to prefer it,
you actually prefer it naturally.

The questions still remain:

What if God predetermined hell for me and I do not prefer what God chose for me?

You don't see that you have jumped the rail and are into another discussion
where God does not act to cause one to naturally prefer his will for them?

This discussion is about God acting to cause one to naturally prefer his will.

As I asked before: If God predestined that I will be lost and I cannot do anything to change/undo this choice of God, and I have no choice in the matter myself,
then were is my freewill at in this?

You are the one who assumes an absolutely free will.
The Bible denies such--Jesus says we are all slaves to sin (Jn 8:34). Slaves are not free.

We are all God's condemned (Jn 3:18) enemies,
under his wrath which remains on us (Jn 3:36) if we do not believe in Jesus Christ.

You have no freedom to choose the outcome of unbelief.

 

[tribesman]

If these verses say men are born sinners then Mary gave birth to a sinner. So that idea is to be rejected.

In Job 14:1-2 Job is speaking poetically about the frailty, short lived state of man and is amazed v3 that God would look upon such a frail, weak man and asking God's judgment be merciful to such a frail, weak man and v4 asks that God not demand that a weak, frail unclean man as Job can make himself clean.

Jer 13:23 is speaking about those that would not repent, see verse 10 and 11. Israel remained in sin for so long becoming so hardened they could not repent as a leopard cannot change its spots.

Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit and as God's only begotten Son He did not inherit a sinful nature. Fascinating that you think that the Word of God is poetry. Maybe explains why you err in some regards.

 

[Atwood]

jonah , just because we understand through the storys of each different book of the bible,that god used them ,called them, etc.

jonah knew, it was god that called the storm up. why else say, through me overboard, and he knew. god would forgive them.

this dose not mean our understanding is the same as gods.just because we can see god acting in the life of a human,

sometime god teaches the person a different way, off looking at things, after 3 days in the wale, would you want to go home.
or are you still thinking ,who told the wale to swallow jonha. lol

Jonah is a great case in point. As I see Jonah:

The LORD ordered Jonah to go to Nineveh; it was the Lord's will that Nineveh repent & be spared punishment. Now Jonah did not agree; Jonah wanted Nineveh to get destroyed. So Nineveh is East, but Jonah takes a ship to the West -- I think Tarshish was likely Spain, about as East as he could get. So what happens? The LORD prepares 4 things in the book. The Lord sends a storm & the Lord prepares a special fish to transport Jonah after Jonah is thrown overboard. So it is my guess that the digestive juices of that fish made Jonah look horrible & yucky; thus when Jonah got to Nineveh & merely announced impending judgment, the Nineties were so impressed that low & behold they repented! I think that what Jonah did to prevent Nineveh from repenting exactly caused them to repent!

God will have His sovereign way when He so chooses.