Did the LORD Violate Human Free Will???

[Elin]

Because God can predetermine what man will do does not mean He did, when He made man, the scripture is clear he did NOT predetermine what man would choose :

Genesis 6:6 (KJV)
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

If it was predetermined or the will of the Lord from the beginning, why would He repent He made him?

The only thing predestined in Rom 8 and Eph 1 is the church, not who would be in it... who is in the church are those who chose to be...

Are you saying God made a mistake with that verse? Was the gospel planned before the fall? The answer is yes it was. We know this from scripture.

With that being said, I can honestly say I do not understand the verses about God repenting in Genesis and Exodus and have often wondered about these myself. I would guess they are an expression ascribed to God for some purpose I haven't looked into yet and does not imply that God made a mistake, because if he did, we are in BIG trouble. So I don't have a rebuttal regarding that, although I still stand firm on the belief that if God knows all things past, present, and future, before he creates them, it is automatically predestined and unchangeable.

This does not undermine "free will" as Elin and others have defined it. We are still held accountable for our choices within their confines. We are born under sin and make our choices based on this nature. These choices are freely made and God holds us accountable for them.

Would that not be God speaking in a human manner there, as he sometimes says
he is crushed, wearied, broken, grieved/angry (Amos 2:13; Isa 43:24; Eze 6:9; Ps 95:10)?

Is it not expressing, in a way we can understand for our benefit, his displeasure
against sin and sinners, their exceeding repugnance to his holiness and
their exceeding offensiveness to his justice?

I don't think the rest of Scripture allows us to think God is saying he made a mistake and
"wishes" he had done something else.
He's doing us a favor by putting it in terms whose severity we can clearly grasp.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Would that not be God speaking in a human manner there, as he sometimes says
he is crushed, wearied, broken, grieved/angry (Amos 2:13; Isa 43:24; Eze 6:9; Ps 95:10)?

Is it not expressing, in a way we can understand for our benefit, his displeasure
against sin and sinners, their exceeding repugnance to his holiness and
their exceeding offensiveness to his justice?

I don't think the rest of Scripture allows us to think God is saying he made a mistake and
"wishes" he had done something else.
He's doing us a favor by putting it in terms whose severity we can clearly grasp.

To believe all men are predestined, or that God chose to foreknow who would and would not choose what, is to believe God cannot control His foreknowledge, it is to say God built all robots with preprogrammed success or failure, when man fails it is Gods fault for programming him that way...

Or it is easier to understand by reading the following verse :

Genesis 6:6 (KJV)
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

That God preplanned a place for us that obey Him and for us that do not, that He gave us our own mind to make our own decisions that are to be made by our own free will which makes Him happy because WE CHOSE HIM.

 

[Atwood]

I was just trying to add helpful verses. No, it doesnt specify what is known (and now I think, that might be to give God glory?). But I'm sure it is infinitely much. The Scriptures also say He knows our thoughts before they come up (Psalms 139:2).

And your verses are helpful indeed.
But whatever it was that God knew about any man, it was not something good in the sinner which caused God's choice of the sinner.

 

[Atwood]

To believe all men are predestined

Jabber, to believe that persons who are saved were predestined is simply to believe God's Word as it stands. Now having affirmed that we may well ponder it.

, or that God chose to foreknow who would and would not choose what, is to believe God cannot control His foreknowledge,

God is and always has been omniscient. He cannot change His nature, for He is immutable. He cannot change his omniscience to not knowing something and still be God.

it is to say God built all robots with preprogrammed success or failure, when man fails it is Gods fault for programming him that way...

In speaking of "robots," it appears to me that you are importing a term & concept alien to scripture.

Or it is easier to understand by reading the following verse :

Genesis 6:6 (KJV)
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

I never heard a person who believed what God says about election who denied the verse you quote, neither does it say a thing about election, foreknowledge, or man's will.

That God preplanned a place for us that obey Him and for us that do not, that He gave us our own mind to make our own decisions that are to be made by our own free will which makes Him happy because WE CHOSE HIM.

You do go on, Jabber, but note that you prove nothing from scripture. You don't prove that man has free will nor what degree of free will a man has, if he has it. YOu just say things -- I think you say what seems right in your own eyes (see end of Judges on that one).

 

[Atwood]

I think God predetermined that man would fall and ordained it.

Well, I sure don't know any scripture for that one.

What I had in mind in this thread was not so much speculating on this subject as to considering Bible passages where God seems to violate man's supposed "free will." Of course posters are free to go in their own directions.

Proverbs has an interesting one.
21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Can you imagine the old Kingy, calling in his counselors, taking advice, listening to dreams, listening to his diviners interpret the liver of a sheep, Prez Reagan checking his horrible scope, etc., making up their own mind (as it were) -- then doing exactly what the Lord wanted them to do?

Why did Pres Truman recognize Israel so quick in 1948 -- yes, he owned a Jewish man a favor, as I recall. Why did Hitler persecute the Jews leading to them going back to Israel? (If I read history right).

Why did the Sanhedrin, & Pilate, & the Jeru mob send the Lord Jesus to the cross?




4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

 

[Atwood]

you did not "choose" to exist.

humpht.

Last I knew there was but one I AM, YHWH, around.

 

[Atwood]

I think we have a will.
.

Forth, so far as I know, in the Bible man never has a specific faculty called a "will." Now men do have a thelema, will in the sense of something they wish to do. We do have a self, a psyche, which does have desires, even lusts. Romans 7 comes to mind where to will is present with me, but to do good is not.

 

[ForthAngel]

Well, I sure don't know any scripture for that one.

What I had in mind in this thread was not so much speculating on this subject as to considering Bible passages where God seems to violate man's supposed "free will." Of course posters are free to go in their own directions.

Proverbs has an interesting one.
21:1The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Can you imagine the old Kingy, calling in his counselors, taking advice, listening to dreams, listening to his diviners interpret the liver of a sheep, Prez Reagan checking his horrible scope, etc., making up their own mind (as it were) -- then doing exactly what the Lord wanted them to do?

Why did Pres Truman recognize Israel so quick in 1948 -- yes, he owned a Jewish man a favor, as I recall. Why did Hitler persecute the Jews leading to them going back to Israel? (If I read history right).

Why did the Sanhedrin, & Pilate, & the Jeru mob send the Lord Jesus to the cross?




4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

I think we can assert from scripture that God ordains all things good and evil for his own purposes and ultimately to fulfill his plan. Here is just one example from scripture:

Genesis 50:20English Standard Version (ESV)
20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Even sin and judgement will glorify God and his perfect justice. I've already gone over what I believe human will amounts to in the previous pages and am too sleepy to rewrite it now. I'm not sure where you are going with your blue text, but I am half asleep so I will reread it tomorrow.

 

[ForthAngel]

Forth, so far as I know, in the Bible man never has a specific faculty called a "will." Now men do have a thelema, will in the sense of something they wish to do. We do have a self, a psyche, which does have desires, even lusts. Romans 7 comes to mind where to will is present with me, but to do good is not.

A will as I understand it. You may be able to explain it better. In previous pages I have given full examples of what I believe regarding this with scripture. We may be on the same page, not sure.

 

[Ukorin]

To believe all men are predestined, or that God chose to foreknow who would and would not choose what, is to believe God cannot control His foreknowledge, it is to say God built all robots with preprogrammed success or failure, when man fails it is Gods fault for programming him that way...

Or it is easier to understand by reading the following verse :

Genesis 6:6 (KJV)
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

That God preplanned a place for us that obey Him and for us that do not, that He gave us our own mind to make our own decisions that are to be made by our own free will which makes Him happy because WE CHOSE HIM.

How many verses say that we "choose" God?

Now, how many verses say that He chooses us?

Your philosophy is fine, but it is not theology found in Scripture.

 

[tribesman]

Natural man has no free will in spiritual matters, nor does he care to have one. So the Lord is not violating anything that is even non-existing.

[h=3]Eph.2[/h][1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[duewell]

if you are a slave to sin then how do you have free will? is it possible that free will is an illusion to preserve the sanity of humanity ? or is it after you are actually born again and no longer a slave to sin that you have free will ? if the only reason humanity was given free will was so they could disobey, was free will a blessing or a curse ?

if only we could understand the mind of God, maybe there is some tree we could eat from that would give us that knowledge. or maybe that's not a good idea...

duewell
mark 4 v11-13

 

[royalscot]

Well, I sure don't know any scripture for that one.

What I had in mind in this thread was not so much speculating on this subject as to considering Bible passages where God seems to violate man's supposed "free will." Of course posters are free to go in their own directions.

Proverbs has an interesting one.
21:1The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Can you imagine the old Kingy, calling in his counselors, taking advice, listening to dreams, listening to his diviners interpret the liver of a sheep, Prez Reagan checking his horrible scope, etc., making up their own mind (as it were) -- then doing exactly what the Lord wanted them to do?

Why did Pres Truman recognize Israel so quick in 1948 -- yes, he owned a Jewish man a favor, as I recall. Why did Hitler persecute the Jews leading to them going back to Israel? (If I read history right).

Why did the Sanhedrin, & Pilate, & the Jeru mob send the Lord Jesus to the cross?




4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

jonah , just because we understand through the storys of each different book of the bible,that god used them ,called them, etc.

jonah knew, it was god that called the storm up. why else say, through me overboard, and he knew. god would forgive them.

this dose not mean our understanding is the same as gods.just because we can see god acting in the life of a human,

sometime god teaches the person a different way, off looking at things, after 3 days in the wale, would you want to go home.
or are you still thinking ,who told the wale to swallow jonha. lol

 

[royalscot]

whats even more strange to think, what if the wale did the same as jonha.

and who would have seen a whale, never mind explaining its a big fish, to someone that never seen one, at that time in history.

 

[SeaBass]

Matt 11:25, Jesus said, "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Before anyone can understand and discern spiritual things, it has to be revealed to them by the indwelling Holy Spirit of the man, therefore the carnal man cannot understand spiritual things without them being revealed to him by the Holy Spirit.

"Babes" is a reference to the apostles, they were 'innocent' in their thinking for they had not had their minds spoiled by philosophies (wise & prudent) of men. Jesus was thankful that God miraculously revealed His word to these inspired apostles for them to take and preach that word and not to those men that have been tainted by worldly pride, 'intellectual arrogance".

These apostles are the 'spiritual man' of 1 Cor 2 that were chosen to receive miraculously words form the HS and wrote those words down whereby the rest of us can read and understand those words, Eph 3;3,4.

 

[SeaBass]

so you agree, mankind is predestined to have an ability to choose, and that agency is subject to the will of the Lord.

sovereign in all things, He is God !!

God foreknew He would create man with freewill but God did not predetermine for men what they would choose with that freewill.

 

[SeaBass]

Let me see if I am understanding you right. You are saying the carnal man, or Uninspired man, the man that has not been born again of the Spirit, can discern or understand spiritual things that the apostles and prophets have written down. I can not accept from my understanding of the scriptures, that a man that has not been born of the Spirit can discern spiritual things, no matter who has written them. I believe the things that are written in the scriptures have been inspired by the hand of God, but your limiting the knowledge of spiritual things to only the apostles and prophets has no foundation or support from other scriptures, and is your false interpretation. All scriptures must harmonize before we accept them as truth.

Again, Acts 22:22 why/how would those in this context be angry at Paul and want Paul to be done away if they did not understand Paul's sermon?

Mt 21:45 "When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them."
These chief priests and Pharisees hated Christ, they were Christ's enemies yet they could understand Jesus' sermon.

---------------------------------------------------------

The problem you are having with the context of 1 Cor 2 is you are trying to intertwine Calvinism into it.

The facts from 1 Cor 2 are:

1) You do not know what is in the mind of God unless God reveals what is in His mind to you, 1 Cor 2:11.

2) therefore in order for God to reveal what is in His mind to you, "spiritual men" were chosen who were the inspired writers of the bible. God gave them the miraculous ability to receive words from the HS (1 Cor 2:13) and these inspired writers wrote those words down so you can then read those words and know what is in the mind of God.

Some men read those words written down by those inspired writers, understand those words and believe and accept those words.

Yet other men, the carnal man, reads those words, UNDERSTANDS those words but chooses to NOT believe/accept those words. How/why would carnal men choose not to believe/accept those words if they could not even understand what those words were about? The two examples I gave above were carnal men UNDERSTANDING those words, but chose to reject, not believe/not accept those words.

 

[SeaBass]

You still do not understand the meaning of free will.

It does not mean access to all possible choices.
It simply means freedom to choose among the choices available to me.

If I choose a sweater at Target, it doesn't mean my free will is violated
because there is no Macy's in my town from which to choose another sweater.**

If I choose an action that I prefer, it doesn't mean my free will is violated
because there are not more actions from which to choose.
My free will is violated only if I am required to choose against my preference.

So free will is about volition only--is it forced against its preference, or does it get to follow its preference.

It is not about disposition. . .it is not about predestination. . .it is not about the sovereignty of God. . .
or anything else.

If one can choose what one prefers to choose, then one's will is free.
If I can choose the sweater I prefer at Target, then my will is free.


**Target = free will governed by disposition
Macy's = free will not governed by disposition

There is no Macy's in my town (human nature).
Target is all I get.

All you have shown so far is God forcing His will upon man and man having no choice in the matter and try to call that freewill.

Freewill does mean one has the ability to choose from at least two or more options.

If God predestined that I will be lost and I cannot do anything to change/undo this choice of God, and I have no choice in the matter myself, then were is my freewill at in this?

In your example, who is forcing you against your will to go to Target? Who is going against your will preventing you from going to Macy's? (You chose to live in a town with no other stores than Target, whose fault is that? If anything YOU chose limited your own choices)

In your example, you were purposely trying to limit yourself to one choice, Target.

Yet God did not limit man to one choice, hell. But God gave men two choices to choose from (1)heaven or (2)hell. And God does not force one upon man against his freewill.

 

[SeaBass]

Natural man has no free will in spiritual matters, nor does he care to have one. So the Lord is not violating anything that is even non-existing.


Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The phrase "by nature the children of wrath" does not mean those Ephesians were born that way against their will.

Strongs says nature can be defined as "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature"

If you habitually do some thing for a long time it becomes part of your nature, NOT how you were born. And this is how the word 'nature' is used in the context for we are told the Ephesians had "walked according to the course of this world" and " also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;"

Those Ephesians had habitually lived in/walked in sin for so long that sinning became a part of their nature, not how they were born.

Lastly, the context says "and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Here are some facts about that Greek verb "were":

"......in verse three Paul affirms that all of us “were . . . children of wrath.” The verb emetha (“were”) is an imperfect tense form. The imperfect tense describes continuity of action as viewed in the past. Thus, here it depicts the habitual style of life which had characterized these saints prior to their conversion. Had the apostle intended to convey the notion of inherited sinfulness at the time of their birth, he easily could have expressed that idea by saying, “you became by birth children of wrath......it is also significant that the verb is in the middle voice in the Greek Testament. The middle voice is employed to suggest the subject’s personal involvement in the action of the verb. The language therefore stresses that the sinful condition of the Ephesians had been their individual responsibility. Hence, combining the imperfect tense and middle voice aspects of the verb, we might paraphrase the passage thusly: “you kept on making yourselves children of wrath.”
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/43-are-infants-by-nature-children-of-wrath
Wayne Jackson

 

[Elin]

You still do not understand the meaning of free will.

It does not mean access to all possible choices,
it is not even about choices (plural).
It is about preference.

If I choose a sweater at Target, it doesn't mean my free will is violated
because there is no Macy's in my town from which to choose another sweater.**

If I choose an action that I prefer, it doesn't mean my free will is violated
because there are not more actions from which to choose.
My free will is violated only if I am required to choose against my preference.

So free will is about volition only--is it forced against its preference, or does it get to follow its preference.

It is not about disposition. . .it is not about predestination. . .it is not about the sovereignty of God. . .
or anything else.

If one can choose what one prefers to choose, then one's will is free.
If I can choose the sweater I prefer at Target, then my will is free.


**Target = free will governed by disposition
Macy's = free will not governed by disposition

There is no Macy's in my town (human nature).
Target is all I get.

All you have shown so far is God forcing His will upon man and
man having no choice in the matter and try to call that freewill.

Don't think so.

It's not about choices, it's about preference.
As long as I am doing what I prefer, my free will is not violated.

Freewill does mean one has the ability to choose from at least two or more options.

Nope. . .and therein lies your problem, you do not understand the meaning of free will.

Review my post above, and the others I have presented to get up to speed.