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I have questions that demands some logic. If God has already chosen who is going to heaven and who is going to hell since the beginning of time, why do we even need to mention that if that's the predestined plan that cannot be changed no matter how we respond to God's beckoning? Aren't we waisting valuable time by trying to tell people who are going to hell anyway no matter what? What's the purpose if we have no choice?
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It would seem to be both at first glance as found in the following thoughts.....
God, before the casting down of the world, chose to receive all who would come to him dia His Son Jesus.....<---this is the election....and choice by God....
Yet we still have to make a conscience choice to believe the message and trust into the saving faith of Jesus and as we know the way is broad and wide that leads to destruction and many there be that go in there at......for straight and narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW there be that FIND it.....
But then we also have scriptural truths like the following...
Jesus also said concerning the APOSTLES that they HAD NOT CHOSEN HIM, but rather HE had chosen them OUT of the WORLD......
So....We are left with a very fine line indeed concerning the above question in the OP....
HAHA!
God, before the casting down of the world, chose to receive all who would come to him dia His Son Jesus.....<---this is the election....and choice by God....
Yet we still have to make a conscience choice to believe the message and trust into the saving faith of Jesus and as we know the way is broad and wide that leads to destruction and many there be that go in there at......for straight and narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW there be that FIND it.....
But then we also have scriptural truths like the following...
Jesus also said concerning the APOSTLES that they HAD NOT CHOSEN HIM, but rather HE had chosen them OUT of the WORLD......
So....We are left with a very fine line indeed concerning the above question in the OP....
HAHA!
Free will is NOT denied, yet the invitation is still open.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to do what he has promised, as some think. Instead, he is patient with you, because he does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants all to turn away from their sins.
If we were part of those angels who followed Satan and were banished from His realm (I know this sounds shoking) He gave US a second chance to repent and be under His Holy rules and will.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to do what he has promised, as some think. Instead, he is patient with you, because he does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants all to turn away from their sins.
If we were part of those angels who followed Satan and were banished from His realm (I know this sounds shoking) He gave US a second chance to repent and be under His Holy rules and will.
It's both, He chose us and we chose Him, but since He was here first...He went first.
We tend to emphasize one side until the other side becomes meaningless or absurd.
The problem is in the reading of the teachings of Paul............those who accept Calvin's teachings leave out a very important part of scripture when speaking of predestination...........and that is "whom He did foreknow........"
Big difference in the understanding of scripture when "foreknowing" precedes "predestined.........."
Before you completely buy into Calvin's teachings, you need to Google Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. theology and read that.
Big difference in the understanding of scripture when "foreknowing" precedes "predestined.........."
Before you completely buy into Calvin's teachings, you need to Google Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. theology and read that.
J
I find it amusing and sad at the same time that those who embrace reformed theology 'prove' they have been "blinded" (ironically) by the false teachings of 'others' when they continue posting prooftexts out of context, and refuse to just study the Bible alone without any 'reformed' commentaries. I have "NEVER" met a person who read the bible ALONE, without the aid of some sort of 'commentary', who came away from it saying,"HEY! I never knew God HATED the world! I never knew Jesus didn't really die for ALL of mankind! I didn't know man was so depraved that he can't even BELIEVE in Jesus Christ without FIRST being BORN AGAIN! I didn't know God chose me and the other elect elite for heaven and CHOSE FOR HELL everyone else just because he wanted to! I didn't know that GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL!"
Excuse my frankness, but these falacious arguments and hideous ideas come from depraved minds of individuals who think God is as sick as they are. Calvinism is the epitomy of "false teaching within the church", denying the gospel of Jesus Christ, distorting the nature of God, deconstructing the anthropology of man, and redefining the word of God. Those who believe that God 'decrees' or 'predestines' EVERYTHING, even down to guiding the hand of the rapist as James White the modern day 'prophet' of reformed theology has said, have no understanding of the nature of God and who HE IS. The God of the Bible is not some sick pervert who sits around vicariously engaging in sinful, evil, vile acts through men or satan. Those who embrace this sort of God are filthy dreamers, supposing God is as perverted as they are.
Beware the cult of Calvinism...
Excuse my frankness, but these falacious arguments and hideous ideas come from depraved minds of individuals who think God is as sick as they are. Calvinism is the epitomy of "false teaching within the church", denying the gospel of Jesus Christ, distorting the nature of God, deconstructing the anthropology of man, and redefining the word of God. Those who believe that God 'decrees' or 'predestines' EVERYTHING, even down to guiding the hand of the rapist as James White the modern day 'prophet' of reformed theology has said, have no understanding of the nature of God and who HE IS. The God of the Bible is not some sick pervert who sits around vicariously engaging in sinful, evil, vile acts through men or satan. Those who embrace this sort of God are filthy dreamers, supposing God is as perverted as they are.
Beware the cult of Calvinism...
I
What we have here is a question asked by someone who has no biblical answers. Even the name itself is indicative of a wrong process i.e. isfreewilltrue. The question isn't "is free will true" the question should be "How does the Bible portray man?" Now of course as soon as that discussion opens the calvie creates a drive-by shooting with many verses that are topically connected but are not substantively connected. You see, the calvie thinks that because it's IN the Bible that he can then commence connecting it with any OTHER verse in the Bible and when context gets too rough he can then take the liberty of redefining words and bringing in the "weight" of philosophical questions that have no Biblical ground. This is all done to divert one's attention to the true deficit of spiritual wisdom and knowledge on the part of the one asking the questions.
The classic response is "if you don't choose between being an Jacob Armenius or John Calvin you have no place, if you are not given to foreknowledge determining man's action i.e. the "Sovereignty of God" (as they define it of course) then you are an open theist. All of these labels are thrown out to confuse and muddle the minds of the audience spoke to. All these things are false dilemmas i.e. logical fallacies the calvies and their erstwhile counterparts (the roman catholics, whose church they were/are trying to reform) have had hundreds of years to perfect.
Let me exemplify what the calvies are doing. Hypocritically they will answer this argument with the very same method that they will reject if it is applied to THEIR argument. Just watch.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
This is a great verse that tells us among other things that anything that moves, is alive or grows anywhere on earth is allowed to be eaten by us. No qualifiers. This is a biblical principle, no arguing that and if you don't believe it, go look it up, it's in the bible.
Now to carry on with that thought I want to post the second verse in "our biblical, chronologically correct bible study" (plants tongue firmly in cheek)
Lev_26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
Here we have a command from God telling us we should eat our children. Such a pleasant thought. Do you disagree with me? How DARE YOU go against God's word. Did he not tells us that we could eat anything? Is there anything telling us we CANT eat each other in these verses? You rebel. What makes you think your conscience is more powerful than God?? Doesn't IJohn tell us that God is greater than our heart? Do you seek to defy and twist the very scriptures themselves. Doesn't Roman's command you when sitting at meat not to question where it came from? and that all things are lawful? Well DOESN'T iT?
Now... let us compare notes with the calvie...
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Here is a verse that tells us that we cannot choose God, he chooses us, get over it... (generic calvie quote)
And because two is the number of witness I will now produce another verse that PROVES this is true...
Rom_9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
God hates some people and loves others, this proves that he chooses some and not others, I'm elect (just don't ask me how I know) and you're not, nanny nanny boo boo. (a close approximation of any Calvinist lecture on this topic).
Anyone catch what the missing element is in this and every other calvinist argument?
THE CONTEXT!!!
The Calvinist has discovered that as long as he can bend you to his will by abusing scriptural quotes to CREATE doctrine as opposed to studying the scriptures in context as they were written and spoken, he has fooled you into thinking that his pseudo-contexts are the "real way" to view scripture. Don't be fooled. After all, if you use THEIR method, we can all be cannibals! Eat, drink and be merry!
The classic response is "if you don't choose between being an Jacob Armenius or John Calvin you have no place, if you are not given to foreknowledge determining man's action i.e. the "Sovereignty of God" (as they define it of course) then you are an open theist. All of these labels are thrown out to confuse and muddle the minds of the audience spoke to. All these things are false dilemmas i.e. logical fallacies the calvies and their erstwhile counterparts (the roman catholics, whose church they were/are trying to reform) have had hundreds of years to perfect.
Let me exemplify what the calvies are doing. Hypocritically they will answer this argument with the very same method that they will reject if it is applied to THEIR argument. Just watch.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
This is a great verse that tells us among other things that anything that moves, is alive or grows anywhere on earth is allowed to be eaten by us. No qualifiers. This is a biblical principle, no arguing that and if you don't believe it, go look it up, it's in the bible.
Now to carry on with that thought I want to post the second verse in "our biblical, chronologically correct bible study" (plants tongue firmly in cheek)
Lev_26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
Here we have a command from God telling us we should eat our children. Such a pleasant thought. Do you disagree with me? How DARE YOU go against God's word. Did he not tells us that we could eat anything? Is there anything telling us we CANT eat each other in these verses? You rebel. What makes you think your conscience is more powerful than God?? Doesn't IJohn tell us that God is greater than our heart? Do you seek to defy and twist the very scriptures themselves. Doesn't Roman's command you when sitting at meat not to question where it came from? and that all things are lawful? Well DOESN'T iT?
Now... let us compare notes with the calvie...
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Here is a verse that tells us that we cannot choose God, he chooses us, get over it... (generic calvie quote)
And because two is the number of witness I will now produce another verse that PROVES this is true...
Rom_9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
God hates some people and loves others, this proves that he chooses some and not others, I'm elect (just don't ask me how I know) and you're not, nanny nanny boo boo. (a close approximation of any Calvinist lecture on this topic).
Anyone catch what the missing element is in this and every other calvinist argument?
THE CONTEXT!!!
The Calvinist has discovered that as long as he can bend you to his will by abusing scriptural quotes to CREATE doctrine as opposed to studying the scriptures in context as they were written and spoken, he has fooled you into thinking that his pseudo-contexts are the "real way" to view scripture. Don't be fooled. After all, if you use THEIR method, we can all be cannibals! Eat, drink and be merry!
QUOTED: find it amusing and sad at the same time that those who embrace reformed theology 'prove' they have been "blinded" (ironically) by the false teachings of 'others' when they continue posting prooftexts out of context, and refuse to just study the Bible alone without any 'reformed' commentaries. I have "NEVER" met a person who read the bible ALONE, without the aid of some sort of 'commentary', who came away from it saying,"HEY! I never knew God HATED the world
END QUOTATION...........
Agreed, but JUST TO BE CLEAR.............FYI:
JOHN CALVIN’S teachings/church are NOT THE SAME:..While the Reformed theological tradition addresses all of the traditional topics of Christian theology, the word Calvinism is sometimes used to refer to particular Calvinist views on soteriology and predestination, which are summarized in part by the five points of Calvinism. Some have also argued that Calvinism as a whole stresses the sovereignty or rule of God in all things – in salvation but also in all of life.
AS OUR TEACHINGS/CHURCH
The Church of God (Anderson, Indiana) is a holiness Christian body with roots in Wesleyan pietism and also in the restorationist traditions.[SUP][1][/SUP] Founded in 1881 by Daniel Sidney Warner, the church claims 1,170,000+ adherents. While having some characteristics of a denomination, the Church of God considers itself Non-denominational Christianity.
One of its more distinctive features is that there is no formal membership, since the movement believes that true biblical salvation, which will result in a life free from sin, makes one a member. Similarly, there is no formal creed other than the Bible. Accordingly, there is much official room for diversity and theological dialogue, even though the movement's culture is strongly rooted in Wesleyan holiness theology.
This church movement is not historically related to other Church of God bodies such as the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) or the Church of God (Charleston, Tennessee). Though these bodies are also holiness Christian in outlook, the Church of God (Anderson) does not share their Pentecostal practices. It is distinguished from these other churches by the location of its central office in Anderson, Indiana.
END QUOTATION...........
Agreed, but JUST TO BE CLEAR.............FYI:
JOHN CALVIN’S teachings/church are NOT THE SAME:..While the Reformed theological tradition addresses all of the traditional topics of Christian theology, the word Calvinism is sometimes used to refer to particular Calvinist views on soteriology and predestination, which are summarized in part by the five points of Calvinism. Some have also argued that Calvinism as a whole stresses the sovereignty or rule of God in all things – in salvation but also in all of life.
AS OUR TEACHINGS/CHURCH
The Church of God (Anderson, Indiana) is a holiness Christian body with roots in Wesleyan pietism and also in the restorationist traditions.[SUP][1][/SUP] Founded in 1881 by Daniel Sidney Warner, the church claims 1,170,000+ adherents. While having some characteristics of a denomination, the Church of God considers itself Non-denominational Christianity.
One of its more distinctive features is that there is no formal membership, since the movement believes that true biblical salvation, which will result in a life free from sin, makes one a member. Similarly, there is no formal creed other than the Bible. Accordingly, there is much official room for diversity and theological dialogue, even though the movement's culture is strongly rooted in Wesleyan holiness theology.
This church movement is not historically related to other Church of God bodies such as the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) or the Church of God (Charleston, Tennessee). Though these bodies are also holiness Christian in outlook, the Church of God (Anderson) does not share their Pentecostal practices. It is distinguished from these other churches by the location of its central office in Anderson, Indiana.