Does God chose people?

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J

Jda016

Guest
You don't have to throw stones at each other in debating about scriptural matters. If it ever leads to a point that you think there is both truths to both paths, then that's when we need to study it further, not avoid the subject.

Yes, no one is suggesting we should not love each other, but we are talking about scriptural truth. If you saw someone say that Jesus was scourged for our sins, not die for them. Would you reply back that we need to get over it because everyone has their view, or would you correct such a teaching? (By the way, that was one of the beliefs that historic Arminians believed if I'm not wrong). We must help correct each other so that we may walk in the unity of truth.

Our view of scriptures should not lessen because of other important biblical subjects. We should balance all in all correctly right?

I'm not disagreeing that we shouldn't look for important things, but this is as important because God's sovereignty is being downgraded. This is also dishonor to God.

There is a reason why is so debated, it has value, great value in Christian's understanding. :)
Agreed.

I'm just saying whether we are puppets or whether we have free will to accept the gift of God, this doesn't negate the fact that we are to follow the commands of God and love Him with everything in us.

The debate doesn't change the essentials such as John 3:16.
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
Agreed.

I'm just saying whether we are puppets or whether we have free will to accept the gift of God, this doesn't negate the fact that we are to follow the commands of God and love Him with everything in us.

The debate doesn't change the essentials such as John 3:16.
That's the thing, you and others keep thinking we teach that we are robots or puppets without any choice, that's not what is being taught in scripture. I'm just trying to help people see that's not true, from almost every person I debated in this forum about this subject has a wrong conception of the subject.

John 3:16 supports unconditional election, but here in this thread many have used this against it. This shows me that people have no idea, I don't say they aren't saved and are condemned for not knowing, rather I am trying to spend my time explaining the truth about it. If God helped me see, I want you guys to know.
 
J

Jda016

Guest
Poor choice of words on my part. I will amend it to, "God chooses who he wants to save and who he wants in Hell" (According to Calvinism). Without the ability to even believe in God for salvation unless he first picks us, then that is the logical conclusion.

oh look at me! I am debating it, which is what I didn't want to do....but part of me does....but it does no good. :D

I commend you for your words written in love!
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
Poor choice of words on my part. I will amend it to, "God chooses who he wants to save and who he wants in Hell" (According to Calvinism). Without the ability to even believe in God for salvation unless he first picks us, then that is the logical conclusion.

oh look at me! I am debating it, which is what I didn't want to do....but part of me does....but it does no good. :D

I commend you for your words written in love!
Brother, God doesn't want anyone in hell. The purpose of debating should be for a good cause, an argument is for a vain cause.

It looks like you are making fun of it as if it's a light subject...seriously... :(

I can show you tons of scripture that shows that God elected certain people to receive salvation before the foundations of the world. Does this mean God wants people to go to hell? No. If He didn't choose anyone, everyone would go to hell, because as the scriptures says, "There is no one seeks for God." (Romans 3:11b). If man is totally depraved, there is no chance for him to even think in his mind to choose God, let alone follow Him. God must be the one who brings to life a sinner, the one who draws them to Christ, the one who gives faith to us in order for us to believe. It's called grace bro! That's why it's called doctrines of grace, rather than Calvinism.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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Brother, God doesn't want anyone in hell. The purpose of debating should be for a good cause, an argument is for a vain cause.

It looks like you are making fun of it as if it's a light subject...seriously... :(

I can show you tons of scripture that shows that God elected certain people to receive salvation before the foundations of the world. Does this mean God wants people to go to hell? No. If He didn't choose anyone, everyone would go to hell, because as the scriptures says, "There is no one seeks for God." (Romans 3:11b). If man is totally depraved, there is no chance for him to even think in his mind to choose God, let alone follow Him. God must be the one who brings to life a sinner, the one who draws them to Christ, the one who gives faith to us in order for us to believe. It's called grace bro! That's why it's called doctrines of grace, rather than Calvinism.
What you have just stated God does for every human being. That is why He is not a respector of persons. He desires that all of His creatures, who bear His Image, come to know Him and be joined with Him in a mutual relationship of love and obedience. God created man such that man has a natural link or search for God. Even in his fallen condition, man seeks, but the problem in his fallen state it becomes easy to direct that seeking incorrectly. Man then begins to worship the creation instead of the creator.

You are misusing Rom 3:11. Paul is making a point that has very little to do relative to the source of that statement which is Ps 14. As a contrast you should also read Ps 15 & 16.
There is no text in scripture that even hints that God preselects, elects anyone to salvation. He did not even do that with Adam, why would He do it for some privileged few, and consign the rest of humanity to destruction.
Man is also not totally depraved as understood by the Reformed view. God has redeemed all of mankind, given life to the world, and the Holy Spirit is actively calling all men to repentance.
Another aspect of the Reformed view is Limited Atonement. If Christ's atonement was limited then Christ accomplished absolutely nothing. He did not overcome death for all. His death did not accomplish a completed sacrifice. The theology presents Christ as just another good man, an historical figure.
Irresistable grace is an affront to most of scripture because it is quite clear that beleivers still sin. They can reject Christ, can quench the Holy Spirit, can spurn their first faith. Which also denies the idea of perseverance of the saints.
God created man free so that man could freely love and obey Him. Man was redeemed, restored to life, to an eternal existence, so that God could call all men. God has given every man all the gifts necessary for His salvation, but man is free and the choice of life or death is all of man. God will hold all men accountable for their choices and actions. None can blame God for their judgement.
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
What you have just stated God does for every human being. That is why He is not a respector of persons. He desires that all of His creatures, who bear His Image, come to know Him and be joined with Him in a mutual relationship of love and obedience. God created man such that man has a natural link or search for God. Even in his fallen condition, man seeks, but the problem in his fallen state it becomes easy to direct that seeking incorrectly. Man then begins to worship the creation instead of the creator.

You are misusing Rom 3:11. Paul is making a point that has very little to do relative to the source of that statement which is Ps 14. As a contrast you should also read Ps 15 & 16.
No sir, I only quoted that one verse so I would make a quick point. I encourage you to read all of Romans 3. Because of man's fallen state everyone is under sin, thus man is dead in it (Ephesians 2:1-7). If man is dead, he cannot even attempt to find God, simply because he is dead! In Ephesians 2:1-7, it's clear that God must make us alive together with Christ. Continuing from those verses, it says that we are saved by grace through faith that not of yourself it is a gift of God; faith is a gift of God, not a product of man. God must first give man faith for him to believe the gospel.

We see in John 1:12-13, we have the gift of adoption as children of God who received Christ, but we are born again by the will of God alone, not by the will of the flesh or the will of man. If you couldn't choose to be born the first time, what makes you think you can the second? John 1-12-13 is clear on this. Same goes for John 3:3-8, a man cannot see the kingdom unless he is born again (v. 3), he cannot enter it either unless he is born again (v. 5). In context, verse 8 gives a summary that it is not from man who becomes born again. So if a man could choose God by choice, he would be the reason for his spiritual birth, that's not what scripture is showing.

Regeneration --> Faith --> Salvation --> Sanctification = Work of the Spirit, by His grace.

There is no text in scripture that even hints that God preselects, elects anyone to salvation. He did not even do that with Adam, why would He do it for some privileged few, and consign the rest of humanity to destruction.
Man is also not totally depraved as understood by the Reformed view. God has redeemed all of mankind, given life to the world, and the Holy Spirit is actively calling all men to repentance.
Read Romans 9, that's a good place to start. You can read after that Ephesians 1:3-12, amazing is His divine will and purpose, and amazing is His amazing grace, how sweet the sound! I don't want to stress it too much, or else I would give you as many scriptures as I can find.

Another aspect of the Reformed view is Limited Atonement. If Christ's atonement was limited then Christ accomplished absolutely nothing. He did not overcome death for all. His death did not accomplish a completed sacrifice. The theology presents Christ as just another good man, an historical figure.
This is not right conception of it. Matter of fact, it can be a confusing one. God sent His Son to die for man's sins, it's main purpose is to redeem the lost elect in the world and bring them to Christ, to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21; John 10:15; Isaiah 53:8, etc). Repentance is a call for everyone, and whoever believes in Christ has a chance to be saved. But as we see here, only the elect happen to believe... (Matt. 22:1-14)

Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all, but it's atonement is for the ones who believe (John 3:16). This is why it's limited, because if it were unlimited to everyone then everyone is saved, this is a false teaching of universalism. So in some way, even if you disagree with reformed theology, the concept of atonement is limited no matter what.

Irresistable grace is an affront to most of scripture because it is quite clear that beleivers still sin. They can reject Christ, can quench the Holy Spirit, can spurn their first faith. Which also denies the idea of perseverance of the saints.
God created man free so that man could freely love and obey Him. Man was redeemed, restored to life, to an eternal existence, so that God could call all men. God has given every man all the gifts necessary for His salvation, but man is free and the choice of life or death is all of man. God will hold all men accountable for their choices and actions. None can blame God for their judgement.
Another misconception. Irresistible grace does not mean God's grace can't be resisted. It means God will overcome the resistance. The bible teaches that the Holy Spirit never fails to bring salvation to the sinners whom He personally calls (John 6:37-40).

Perseverance of the saints is eternal security. If the scriptures say Jesus is the Author and Perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), then it's up to Him as to who will persevere in the end. If you weren't saved by works, then you cannot be lost by it either. If you could, then that would mean you earned your salvation and have had it taken away for not keeping up with it. Scripture is clear that we are saved by grace, and by grace we shall persevere (Phill. 1:6)

Again, saying God elects certain people does not mean we don't have choices. God can be 100% sovereign while we are also morally responsible. Free will is not the same thing as moral choices. Free will teaches that you can choose God outside of your natural state without God's full help. If that were true, then you would have something to boast about.

Can a man walk across a bridge? Yes, by his nature he is able to. Can a man fly over the bridge? No, because that's not in his nature. This is the same thing with a man who is totally depraved in the nature of his sin. He can make choices, but he cannot do them beyond his nature. God must make him a new creature with a new nature for him to choose God.
 
D

danalee

Guest
No sir, I only quoted that one verse so I would make a quick point. I encourage you to read all of Romans 3. Because of man's fallen state everyone is under sin, thus man is dead in it (Ephesians 2:1-7). If man is dead, he cannot even attempt to find God, simply because he is dead! In Ephesians 2:1-7, it's clear that God must make us alive together with Christ. Continuing from those verses, it says that we are saved by grace through faith that not of yourself it is a gift of God; faith is a gift of God, not a product of man. God must first give man faith for him to believe the gospel.

We see in John 1:12-13, we have the gift of adoption as children of God who received Christ, but we are born again by the will of God alone, not by the will of the flesh or the will of man. If you couldn't choose to be born the first time, what makes you think you can the second? John 1-12-13 is clear on this. Same goes for John 3:3-8, a man cannot see the kingdom unless he is born again (v. 3), he cannot enter it either unless he is born again (v. 5). In context, verse 8 gives a summary that it is not from man who becomes born again. So if a man could choose God by choice, he would be the reason for his spiritual birth, that's not what scripture is showing.

Regeneration --> Faith --> Salvation --> Sanctification = Work of the Spirit, by His grace.



Read Romans 9, that's a good place to start. You can read after that Ephesians 1:3-12, amazing is His divine will and purpose, and amazing is His amazing grace, how sweet the sound! I don't want to stress it too much, or else I would give you as many scriptures as I can find.



This is not right conception of it. Matter of fact, it can be a confusing one. God sent His Son to die for man's sins, it's main purpose is to redeem the lost elect in the world and bring them to Christ, to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21; John 10:15; Isaiah 53:8, etc). Repentance is a call for everyone, and whoever believes in Christ has a chance to be saved. But as we see here, only the elect happen to believe... (Matt. 22:1-14)

Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all, but it's atonement is for the ones who believe (John 3:16). This is why it's limited, because if it were unlimited to everyone then everyone is saved, this is a false teaching of universalism. So in some way, even if you disagree with reformed theology, the concept of atonement is limited no matter what.



Another misconception. Irresistible grace does not mean God's grace can't be resisted. It means God will overcome the resistance. The bible teaches that the Holy Spirit never fails to bring salvation to the sinners whom He personally calls (John 6:37-40).

Perseverance of the saints is eternal security. If the scriptures say Jesus is the Author and Perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), then it's up to Him as to who will persevere in the end. If you weren't saved by works, then you cannot be lost by it either. If you could, then that would mean you earned your salvation and have had it taken away for not keeping up with it. Scripture is clear that we are saved by grace, and by grace we shall persevere (Phill. 1:6)

Again, saying God elects certain people does not mean we don't have choices. God can be 100% sovereign while we are also morally responsible. Free will is not the same thing as moral choices. Free will teaches that you can choose God outside of your natural state without God's full help. If that were true, then you would have something to boast about.

Can a man walk across a bridge? Yes, by his nature he is able to. Can a man fly over the bridge? No, because that's not in his nature. This is the same thing with a man who is totally depraved in the nature of his sin. He can make choices, but he cannot do them beyond his nature. God must make him a new creature with a new nature for him to choose God.
interesting arguments posed in your post here :)
 
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gregfl

Guest
"unconditional" AND "election"
occurs in 0 verses in the KJV. :)
Calvinism derived its 3 classes ultimately from the 3 classes in Valentinian Gnosticism (see Ireneaus’ five books Against Heresies):
1. Pneumatics (spirituals) – The elect of the elect.
2. Psuchics (soulys) – The average elect.
3. Hylics (carnals) – The non-elect. hmmm
 
J

Jda016

Guest
Brother, God doesn't want anyone in hell. The purpose of debating should be for a good cause, an argument is for a vain cause.

It looks like you are making fun of it as if it's a light subject...seriously... :(

I can show you tons of scripture that shows that God elected certain people to receive salvation before the foundations of the world. Does this mean God wants people to go to hell? No. If He didn't choose anyone, everyone would go to hell, because as the scriptures says, "There is no one seeks for God." (Romans 3:11b). If man is totally depraved, there is no chance for him to even think in his mind to choose God, let alone follow Him. God must be the one who brings to life a sinner, the one who draws them to Christ, the one who gives faith to us in order for us to believe. It's called grace bro! That's why it's called doctrines of grace, rather than Calvinism.
Im a bit fuzzy on how you believe God doesn't want people in Hell. I have heard many Calvinist preaches shout it from the roof tops that God desires "vessels of wrath" (no choice) to burn in hell for all eternity simply because it glorifies him. If it appears I am making light of the situation it is because I believe such an idea is not Biblical.

"Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death."
Institutes, Book III, Ch. XXI, Sec. 5.
John Calvin

Calvin says that God has foreordained people to hell. This means he picked and wants them in Hell. Notice His words, "not all [are] created with a similar destiny." He is saying God creates people just for hell.

This is why I don't agree with Calvin in light of Timothy and Peter that says God desires all men to be saved.
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
Im a bit fuzzy on how you believe God doesn't want people in Hell. I have heard many Calvinist preaches shout it from the roof tops that God desires "vessels of wrath" (no choice) to burn in hell for all eternity simply because it glorifies him. If it appears I am making light of the situation it is because I believe such an idea is not Biblical.

"Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death."
Institutes, Book III, Ch. XXI, Sec. 5.
John Calvin

Calvin says that God has foreordained people to hell. This means he picked and wants them in Hell. Notice His words, "not all [are] created with a similar destiny." He is saying God creates people just for hell.

This is why I don't agree with Calvin in light of Timothy and Peter that says God desires all men to be saved.
I'm guessing Romans 9 isn't good enough. Do you know what God's decree is? If God foreordained things to happen, it's because He is sovereign and He has the right to do what He pleases and purposes. Does this mean he doesn't care about mankind at all? No, otherwise He wouldn't upheld the earth for their benefit, neither would He call for repentance.

Reading on from that sentence (my version is translated by Henry Beverage):

"This God has testified, not only in the case of single individuals; he has also given a specimen of it in the whole posterity of Abraham, to make it plain that the future condition of each nation lives entirely at his disposal: “When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance,” (Deut. 32:8, 9). The separation is before the eyes of all; in the person of Abraham, as in a withered stock, one people is specially chosen, while the others are rejected; but the cause does not appear, except that Moses, to deprive posterity of any handle for glorying, tells them that their superiority was owing entirely to the free love of God. The cause which he assigns for their deliverance is, “Because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them,” (Deut. 4:37); or more explicitly in another chapter, “The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people: for ye were the fewest of all people: but because the Lord loved you,” (Deut. 7:7, 8). He repeatedly makes the same intimations, “Behold, the heaven, and the heaven of heavens is the Lord’s thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them,” (Deut. 10:14, 15). Again, in another passage, holiness is enjoined upon them, because they have been chosen to be a peculiar people; while in another, love is declared to be the cause of their protection (Deut. 23:5). This, too, believers with one voice proclaim, “He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob, whom he loved,” (Ps. 47:4). The endowments with which God had adorned them, they all ascribe to gratuitous love, not only because they knew that they had not obtained them by any merit, but that not even was the holy patriarch endued with a virtue that could procure such distinguished honor for himself and his posterity. And the more completely to crush all pride, he upbraids them with having merited nothing of the kind, seeing they were a rebellious and stiff-necked people (Deut. 9:6)."

Third book, Chapter 21, Section 5

Seeing from this, God by His love He chooses. If it were ever by conditions by which comes from ourselves, then we would be able to boast. God is not arbitrary at all in anything He does. If everything was at random, then God wouldn't be Sovereign. God decrees the very detail of history, present, and future.

Now let me explain Timothy and Peter in another post, it takes me a while to post long posts on my device so I apologize.
 
Feb 17, 2010
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Ok it is proven wnough now... God does choose people... And the question is now WHY doe God call or choose people....
The answer as always... In the Bible/.... 2 Thes 2:14...
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God choose/call people to obtain the Glory of Jesus... WOW!!!
Imagine having the GLORY of Jesus in you, WOW!!!!
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
What does 1 Timothy 2:4 mean by, "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Well let's go back to the verses before it and get a good glimpse of what the context is saying.

"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties
and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." - 1 Timothy 2:1-4 NAS

So what is this text saying? What does it mean by the word "all"? Does this mean every single individual on this planet? What exactly does "all" mean, "all of what?"

From verse 1-4 or even 4-1 is all tied together. What does Paul mean by "
I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men."? Is Paul telling Timothy to start praying for every Ephesians in Ephesus from A-Z? Or is this talking about a specific people? Paul tells us right after, "for kings and all who are in authority." Paul is noting that the regal class of kings and higher social class should be included in prayer. Is there a reason? Paul says, "so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity." Is Paul saying that they should be appeased or mollified? No, he sees it for an eternal hope rather than temporal appeasement from the oppression of rulers. So Paul continues by saying "This is good", what is 'good'? That God does not intend to save a particular social class or people, God desires all [kinds] of men to be saved.

We see this exact same thing using the word "all" as of means "all kinds of people." Examples of this is Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11 where it states that God is not a God of just Jewish believers, but "all" believers of every background, tribe, nationality, race, and tongue. He is God of all.

We must recognize that words in the bible don't always have the same meaning. The word "flesh" can mean a number of things. Body, mankind, or sinful nature. The word "world" too has different meanings in the bible such as 1 John 2:15 that tells us not to love the world, but John 3:16 says God loves the world. Does this mean we should not love our neighbor who is in the world? That would contradict Jesus' command to love if it meant that. So no it's not the same meaning. We must be careful and not add any pretexts.


 
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S

Spokenpassage

Guest
2 Peter 3:9 would be in connection to my post above in the last part.
 
J

Jda016

Guest
I'm guessing Romans 9 isn't good enough. Do you know what God's decree is? If God foreordained things to happen, it's because He is sovereign and He has the right to do what He pleases and purposes. Does this mean he doesn't care about mankind at all? No, otherwise He wouldn't upheld the earth for their benefit, neither would He call for repentance.

Reading on from that sentence (my version is translated by Henry Beverage):

"This God has testified, not only in the case of single individuals; he has also given a specimen of it in the whole posterity of Abraham, to make it plain that the future condition of each nation lives entirely at his disposal: “When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance,” (Deut. 32:8, 9). The separation is before the eyes of all; in the person of Abraham, as in a withered stock, one people is specially chosen, while the others are rejected; but the cause does not appear, except that Moses, to deprive posterity of any handle for glorying, tells them that their superiority was owing entirely to the free love of God. The cause which he assigns for their deliverance is, “Because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them,” (Deut. 4:37); or more explicitly in another chapter, “The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people: for ye were the fewest of all people: but because the Lord loved you,” (Deut. 7:7, 8). He repeatedly makes the same intimations, “Behold, the heaven, and the heaven of heavens is the Lord’s thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them,” (Deut. 10:14, 15). Again, in another passage, holiness is enjoined upon them, because they have been chosen to be a peculiar people; while in another, love is declared to be the cause of their protection (Deut. 23:5). This, too, believers with one voice proclaim, “He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob, whom he loved,” (Ps. 47:4). The endowments with which God had adorned them, they all ascribe to gratuitous love, not only because they knew that they had not obtained them by any merit, but that not even was the holy patriarch endued with a virtue that could procure such distinguished honor for himself and his posterity. And the more completely to crush all pride, he upbraids them with having merited nothing of the kind, seeing they were a rebellious and stiff-necked people (Deut. 9:6)."

Third book, Chapter 21, Section 5

Seeing from this, God by His love He chooses. If it were ever by conditions by which comes from ourselves, then we would be able to boast. God is not arbitrary at all in anything He does. If everything was at random, then God wouldn't be Sovereign. God decrees the very detail of history, present, and future.

Now let me explain Timothy and Peter in another post, it takes me a while to post long posts on my device so I apologize.
I have no disagreement that God chose Jacob instead of Esau from whom Jesus would come from. Let me share more definitively what I believe. This is an commentary excerpt from the "New King James Bible" I have. I believe it accurately portrays everything here and is what I believe regarding these things.

Focus: God's elect (9:10-13)
The Biblical noun elect refers to those who are chosen: election means the process of choosing. Words which refer to God's election or choosing people are used in three different ways.


Terms for election sometimes describe God's choice of a person to do a specific task. For example, in vv, 10-13 God chose Jacob instead of Esau to be the line of descent through whom the people of Israel would emerge.


Ephesians 1:3-6 describes God's choice of what he would make out of those who believe in Christ. "Before the foundation of the world" God determined that those who believed would be made holy and adopted as His children. They would be Christ-like (Romans 8:29, 30).


Election can also determine the way in which God determines who will be saved. It is the Sovereign God who makes this decision; He prepared His plan of salvation from eternity. But the question is, What is the basis upon which God chooses those who are elected for salvation?


Some assert that God's choice is a predestination based entirely on His sovereign will. The sixteenth century Protestant reformer, John Calvin, writes: "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which he has determined in Himself what he would have become of every individual of mankind, for they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestined (elected) either to life or to death."


As Calvin would hasten to agree, however, arbitrary election or predestination, that is, without reference to the necessary perfection of all God's actions, springing from the essential holiness of his character, is unbiblical. God does not force, but rather enables people to believe in Christ. Each one is personally responsible to accept or reject God's free offer of salvation. Election to eternal life or eternal death is based on (1) God's offer of salvation to all people, and (2) the individual's response to that offer (Deut 30:19; Josh. 24:15; Zechariah 13;9; Matt. 11:27-29, John 20:31, Acts 16:31; Rom 4:3, Rev. 22:17).


Based on these Scriptures and others, election is God's purpose to save humankind from the ruin of sin. Salvation is offered to all through faith in Jesus Christ. The persons elected to be saved are those who accept God's offer and thus become His elect (chosen ones). The clearest statement of this is in the words of Jesus himself: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16, see also 2 Pet 3:9). God elects those who accept His offer of salvation and who choose to serve Him in love and obedience
 
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Jda016

Guest
What does 1 Timothy 2:4 mean by, "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Well let's go back to the verses before it and get a good glimpse of what the context is saying.

"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties
and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." - 1 Timothy 2:1-4 NAS

So what is this text saying? What does it mean by the word "all"? Does this mean every single individual on this planet? What exactly does "all" mean, "all of what?"

From verse 1-4 or even 4-1 is all tied together. What does Paul mean by "
I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men."? Is Paul telling Timothy to start praying for every Ephesians in Ephesus from A-Z? Or is this talking about a specific people? Paul tells us right after, "for kings and all who are in authority." Paul is noting that the regal class of kings and higher social class should be included in prayer. Is there a reason? Paul says, "so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity." Is Paul saying that they should be appeased or mollified? No, he sees it for an eternal hope rather than temporal appeasement from the oppression of rulers. So Paul continues by saying "This is good", what is 'good'? That God does not intend to save a particular social class or people, God desires all [kinds] of men to be saved.

We see this exact same thing using the word "all" as of means "all kinds of people." Examples of this is Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11 where it states that God is not a God of just Jewish believers, but "all" believers of every background, tribe, nationality, race, and tongue. He is God of all.

We must recognize that words in the bible don't always have the same meaning. The word "flesh" can mean a number of things. Body, mankind, or sinful nature. The word "world" too has different meanings in the bible such as 1 John 2:15 that tells us not to love the world, but John 3:16 says God loves the world. Does this mean we should not love our neighbor who is in the world? That would contradict Jesus' command to love if it meant that. So no it's not the same meaning. We must be careful and not add any pretexts.


I have heard this exact thing from people before you. "All" doesn't "all" it instead means "some" (all kinds). This is where it bothers me. Calvinists have to insert a word in the Bible and make a clear reading of Scripture to mean something else entirely. In 2nd Peter he is not even talking about kings or governing authorities, he is telling Christians that God is withholding judgement because he desires all people to repent, because he doesn't want any to perish.

Saying that God desires all men to be saved and saying that God only desires some to be saved are two completely different things.

I looked up "all" in Greek. It means "all" "whoever" "every" etc. All means all.

Spoken, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

It is like this. We both see everyone drowning in the ocean (total depravity) and no person can save themselves by their own works. Jesus throws us a raft and I believe man, through faith, can climb aboard. Calvinists believe that man is so dead that he can't even climb aboard in faith, he first has to be made by God to even be able to get in the raft (predestination). In either case man can not boast that he saved himself, they can only boast in the one who threw them the raft (Jesus).
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
I have no disagreement that God chose Jacob instead of Esau from whom Jesus would come from. Let me share more definitively what I believe. This is an commentary excerpt from the "New King James Bible" I have. I believe it accurately portrays everything here and is what I believe regarding these things.

Focus: God's elect (9:10-13)
The Biblical noun elect refers to those who are chosen: election means the process of choosing. Words which refer to God's election or choosing people are used in three different ways.


Terms for election sometimes describe God's choice of a person to do a specific task. For example, in vv, 10-13 God chose Jacob instead of Esau to be the line of descent through whom the people of Israel would emerge.


Ephesians 1:3-6 describes God's choice of what he would make out of those who believe in Christ. "Before the foundation of the world" God determined that those who believed would be made holy and adopted as His children. They would be Christ-like (Romans 8:29, 30).


Election can also determine the way in which God determines who will be saved. It is the Sovereign God who makes this decision; He prepared His plan of salvation from eternity. But the question is, What is the basis upon which God chooses those who are elected for salvation?


Some assert that God's choice is a predestination based entirely on His sovereign will. The sixteenth century Protestant reformer, John Calvin, writes: "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which he has determined in Himself what he would have become of every individual of mankind, for they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestined (elected) either to life or to death."


As Calvin would hasten to agree, however, arbitrary election or predestination, that is, without reference to the necessary perfection of all God's actions, springing from the essential holiness of his character, is unbiblical. God does not force, but rather enables people to believe in Christ. Each one is personally responsible to accept or reject God's free offer of salvation. Election to eternal life or eternal death is based on (1) God's offer of salvation to all people, and (2) the individual's response to that offer (Deut 30:19; Josh. 24:15; Zechariah 13;9; Matt. 11:27-29, John 20:31, Acts 16:31; Rom 4:3, Rev. 22:17).


Based on these Scriptures and others, election is God's purpose to save humankind from the ruin of sin. Salvation is offered to all through faith in Jesus Christ. The persons elected to be saved are those who accept God's offer and thus become His elect (chosen ones). The clearest statement of this is in the words of Jesus himself: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16, see also 2 Pet 3:9). God elects those who accept His offer of salvation and who choose to serve Him in love and obedience
I recommend you read A.W Pink's book called the "Attributes of God." He goes into detail about foreknowledge, and the misuse of the word and made up doctrine built around it. He presents scriptural stands on this very subject. I am using him because he explains it in a very understandable way, he is a well known theologian (maybe not to many).

Your commentary is based on an Armenian view, in which I too have a study bible that stands on this exact doctrine. I have thought before it were true, until I started reading more into the different view. I began to see pretext in it's commentary. The more I read scripture, the more the it's view became more of an idea.

I found an online version of Pink's attributes of God, check it out.

Link ----> The Attributes of God by A.W. Pink-The Foreknowledge of God
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
I have heard this exact thing from people before you. "All" doesn't "all" it instead means "some" (all kinds). This is where it bothers me. Calvinists have to insert a word in the Bible and make a clear reading of Scripture to mean something else entirely. In 2nd Peter he is not even talking about kings or governing authorities, he is telling Christians that God is withholding judgement because he desires all people to repent, because he doesn't want any to perish.

Saying that God desires all men to be saved and saying that God only desires some to be saved are two completely different things.

I looked up "all" in Greek. It means "all" "whoever" "every" etc. All means all.

Spoken, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

It is like this. We both see everyone drowning in the ocean (total depravity) and no person can save themselves by their own works. Jesus throws us a raft and I believe man, through faith, can climb aboard. Calvinists believe that man is so dead that he can't even climb aboard in faith, he first has to be made by God to even be able to get in the raft (predestination). In either case man can not boast that he saved himself, they can only boast in the one who threw them the raft (Jesus).
Jda016, so you are telling me every word in the bible means the same thing? This is a valid argument that you cannot refute, all does not always mean all. If world meant every single person, then Caeser made the Japanese and Australians take a census according to Luke 2:1.

I will be honest I find the term calvinist kinda disrespectful, because we don't follow a man, we follow Christ. It's not a religion built on a man's doctrine.
 
J

Jda016

Guest
Jda016, so you are telling me every word in the bible means the same thing? This is a valid argument that you cannot refute, all does not always mean all. If world meant every single person, then Caeser made the Japanese and Australians take a census according to Luke 2:1.

I will be honest I find the term calvinist kinda disrespectful, because we don't follow a man, we follow Christ. It's not a religion built on a man's doctrine.
Alright, let me rephrase.
In a clear reading of Luke 2:1 Caesar obviously wasn't including the Japenese. All meant all under his authority or domain. I think most anyone would understand that from just seeing it.

However, when it says God desires all men to be saved or that he desires no man to perish, it is not obvious that he means "all kinds" or "some" rather the clear reading would seem to indicate all men everywhere. Especially in 2 Peter since it is talking about the judgement of the entire world, but that God is slow to judge the entire world because he does not want any man to perish but all to come to repentance.

I apologize when I use the term Calvinist. I mean no offense by it. It is just a word I use to more easily categorize a certain belief system. In fact I don't really even see you a real Calvinist because you believe God doesn't desire people to be in hell. In the quote above from Calvin, he makes it pretty clear that God creates people for the sole purpose of going to hell and I have met many people who believe that.
 
J

Jda016

Guest
John Piper, who is one of the forefront spokesmans for Calvinsim believes as Calvin does.

"Before you were born or had done anything good or bad God decided whether to save you or not." John Piper
 
J

Jda016

Guest
On a side note Spoke, I don't have any ill will or feelings towards you. I know you are defending how you see the Bible with all your heart and soul. I commend you for such a defense. Most people don't even believe in the Bible as God's word any more. I am proud of you for standing up for the veracity of scripture in all your posts on this forum. :)