Does God chose people?

[Cassian]

I'm not inserting anything, if you read it, it will point at least five things to the reader.

1. Pharasees didn't believe because they aren't His sheep (v.26).
2. The sheep hears and follows Him, and He knows them (v. 27)
3. He gives eternal life to His sheep (v. 28).
4. The Father is the One gives them to Jesus (v. 29).
5. No one can snatch them out of His hand, (they are one) (v. 29).

Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for all, but it's purpose is to redeem the ones who were predestined for. If anyone believes, they are saved. Anyone who trusts in Christ and His atoning work is saved.

Saying Jesus is the only way does not nullify unconditional election. If it does, there is a misunderstanding.

Spokenpassage,
To say that the Pharisees didn't believe because they are not His sheep, yanks the verse our of cntext again. Jesus had spoken to them just a very short time before and as a result of that discussion they did not believe. Now Jesus is again speaking to them, they don't understand because they are not his sheep. The are not His sheep because they didn't beleive, not that they could not believe, or would never believe.
The purpose of the analogy, in Isreals day is that the sheep follow their shepard. However, some don't, they wander off or a wild beast distracts them and isolates them. Jesus seeks to gain them back, but we have many examples that "believers" do not come back.
scripture also states quite clearly that eternal life is NOT give upon one's initial belief, It is a promise and will be given at the end. We may possess it because we are IN Christ, but man is free to depart the relationship at any time. Adam had that same freedom. Christ redeemed the world from death and sin so that each individual could choose life or death for himself.
We are most fortunate that God is not the one to forsake us. We can surely count on Him, but man is his worse enemy. We have a tendency to wander, to get lost, and many never find their way back, or just outright reject Christ after having partaken of the good things.
Anyone who believes IS saved, but the problem is that believes is present tense, active and continuous. If it is not continuous, active, then obviously belief has stopped, thus one cannot be saved, one will not inherit the promise at the end.

 

[SeaBass]

Sigh*

Election does not nullify John 3:16 or any verse that says if we believe we are saved. Matter of fact John 3:16 is supportive to unconditional election.

One way or another, you can't dismiss what the bible says about predestination.

Not only that, but Romans 12:3 ALSO is used for doctrines of election...

Jn 3:16 makes belief a condition to being saved. So before the world began, God did not UNcondtioanlly elect anyone to be saved when no one believed, did not even exist.

The bible does teach predestination but NOT Calvinistic predestination. Before the world began, God foreknew/predestined a GROUP that would be called "Christian". It is this GROUP that has been predestined and not any individual unconditionally apart from this group. So 'whosoever' that conditionally believes can be a part of this forrknown, predestined group. So God is not acountable, culpable for the lost as Calvnistic predestination makes Him.

 

[Channa]

So, that means that God chose the group called 'Christians' instead of the folk 'Jews'?

Jn 3:16 makes belief a condition to being saved. So before the world began, God did not UNcondtioanlly elect anyone to be saved when no one believed, did not even exist.

The bible does teach predestination but NOT Calvinistic predestination. Before the world began, God foreknew/predestined a GROUP that would be called "Christian". It is this GROUP that has been predestined and not any individual unconditionally apart from this group. So 'whosoever' that conditionally believes can be a part of this forrknown, predestined group. So God is not acountable, culpable for the lost as Calvnistic predestination makes Him.

 

[SeaBass]

So, that means that God chose the group called 'Christians' instead of the folk 'Jews'?

In the OT, fleshly Jews were God's chosen but becasue of their disbelief/disobedience God cast them off (Rom 11) and grafted in the Gentiles. So any Jew or Gentile that becomes a CHristian becomes part of the forknown/predestined group.

Rom 2:28,29 Paul tells us the true Jew is NOT one outwardly of the flesh, but inwardly of the spirit (Christian).

Again, Rom 9 is Paul's argument agaisnt objections he knew the Jews raise in God having cast them off.

 

[dcontroversal]

Solomon said time and chance happen unto all...

God has made the wicked for the day of destruction based upon his ability to see who would believe and who would not
To be fair and righteous, salvation is open unto all, God has dealt faith (the ability to believe) unto all, the invisible things of the world teaches, the heavens declare and day unto day uttereth speech which can be understood by all...when by nature we do things that agree with the law it becomes a law unto us and testifies to the fact of God

 

[SeaBass]

Solomon said time and chance happen unto all...

God has made the wicked for the day of destruction based upon his ability to see who would believe and who would not
To be fair and righteous, salvation is open unto all, God has dealt faith (the ability to believe) unto all, the invisible things of the world teaches, the heavens declare and day unto day uttereth speech which can be understood by all...when by nature we do things that agree with the law it becomes a law unto us and testifies to the fact of God

How on one hand can "God made the wicked for the day of destruction" yet on the other hand "savlation is open to all"

Both are not possible at the same time for the obvious reason salvation is not/never open to those God made/caused/forced to be wicked and destroyed.

 

[cjordan38]

If God chose one person and not another, That would make Him a respecter of people,
And that would make Him a sinner, James 2: 9.
Salvation is for the whosever, John 3: 16.

I must disagree...Gods Word said he called some apostle, some prophet, some evangelist, some pastor and teacher. He chose and qualified these people from the beginning. Also God can do as He pleases because he is God.

Who can kick against the prick?

 

[CWJ]

He people
A few days ago I was reading my bible while I saw this:

Romans 9: 11,12:
Even before they were born or had done anything good or bad, the Lord told Rebekah that her older son would serve the younger one. The Lord said this to show that he makes his own choices and that it wasn't because of anything either of them had done.

Does this text say that we're already fated to go somewhere?
I know that God knows everything,
but that means that people can't be saved?

Its difficult.
I would love to hear your opinion

Hello Channa,

God has foreknowledge, He knows who will believe and receive salvation by grace. That does not take away from free will in any way. He just knows in advance, because He foreknows.

'For whom He did foreknow,
He also did pre-destinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.'
(Rom. 8:29)

'Moreover whom he did pre-destinate,
them He also called:
and whom He called,
them He also justified:
and whom He justified,
them He also glorified.'
(Rom.8:30)

Praise God!

 

[dcontroversal]

How on one hand can "God made the wicked for the day of destruction" yet on the other hand "savlation is open to all"

Both are not possible at the same time for the obvious reason salvation is not/never open to those God made/caused/forced to be wicked and destroyed.

Look Sea Perch...both are biblical quotes and taken form the bible...I would recommend you trusting Jesus as your savior in a biblical manner and then you will be able to understand God's word and how both of these biblical comments from scripture can and do jive when taken together and in context!

God before the casting down of the world and creation of man determined that all who come to him through Christ will be received as full grown children....

God also not being subject to time and being the lofty one who inhabits eternity also has the ability to see past, present and future context still made the men who he knew would not believe as he would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth....

There are even deeper realities found within the scriptures that give weight to the (why's), but to list them for you would be a frivolous waste of my time as you would reject, argue and tell me that if it doesn't involve you working then it is void!

 

[saved1975]

I must disagree...Gods Word said he called some apostle, some prophet, some evangelist, some pastor and teacher. He chose and qualified these people from the beginning. Also God can do as He pleases because he is God.

Who can kick against the prick?

God does chose who He gives the Ministry gifts to, The Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist Pastor and Teacher.
Because God know who is best suited to what Ministry.

But that is entirely different to salvation, as that is for the whosoever believes, NOT the one's that God choses.

God cannot do as He pleases, He is bound by His word, And He will never go against His word, And His word says, Whosoever believes, repents and get born again shall be saved.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Hello Channa,

God has foreknowledge, He knows who will believe and receive salvation by grace. That does not take away from free will in any way. He just knows in advance, because He foreknows.

'For whom He did foreknow,
He also did pre-destinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.'
(Rom. 8:29)

'Moreover whom he did pre-destinate,
them He also called:
and whom He called,
them He also justified:
and whom He justified,
them He also glorified.'
(Rom.8:30)

Praise God!

Channa, this is not sound teaching, saying He chose by His foreknowledge (if that's what is presented). She is misuing these verses. Sister CWJ, this is not what these verses are saying.

You can read about God's Foreknowledge here...

The Attributes of God by A.W. Pink-The Foreknowledge of God

 

[Jda016]

The debate on whether we are chosen or not chosen seems to get people to fall into too many pits.

It is good to ask questions about God's word so that we may understand it, but at the end of the day, we make choices all the time, so believe upon The Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, obey his commandments, and love him with all your heart, soul, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Be like Joshua and say, "As for me and my house, we will serve The Lord."

Do these things and worry not over the debate that has been roaring for over a thousand years.

 

[Spokenpassage]

The debate on whether we are chosen or not chosen seems to get people to fall into too many pits.

It is good to ask questions about God's word so that we may understand it, but at the end of the day, we make choices all the time, so believe upon The Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, obey his commandments, and love him with all your heart, soul, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Be like Joshua and say, "As for me and my house, we will serve The Lord."

Do these things and worry not over the debate that has been roaring for over a thousand years.

Jda016, you don't understand, it's much more than a theological debate, it's scriptural truth. If this wasn't in the bible, and if this wasn't important,, then yes everything about this subject is vain and void of any good thing. This is not the case. People who haven't studied this don't think much about it, it's a very important doctrine in the faith of believers.

 

[Spokenpassage]

With all seriousness, which I have been:

This subject is a very important one, if one mistake this doctrine, it can mess up their view on God's Sovereignty. I am not here to say, you are wrong and everything I say is right because I know more than you. No! I'm here to help you guys see what I see. I once believed in an arminian view of predestination. The more I studied the subject, the more I saw how incorrect that view was. Yes there is many opinions, but the bible is very clear on this subject because it is an important one. I personally believe this will effect your view on the basics of the Christian belief. I found out, people will have their own views, but there is one view that stands correctly with scripture. The whole church in the last few centuries have adopted a various form of arminianism. Because of this, a lot believers are being taught from the pulpit than the bible it seems.

With all seriousness, please take this subject so serious that you study both sides. No biasness.

 

[CWJ]

Channa, this is not sound teaching, saying He chose by His foreknowledge (if that's what is presented). She is misuing these verses. Sister CWJ, this is not what these verses are saying.

You can read about God's Foreknowledge here...

The Attributes of God by A.W. Pink-The Foreknowledge of God

Hello Spokenpassage,

You have put your own interpretation upon what I said. I did not say that God choses by His foreknowledge. (see entry#88)

Please don't do that.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Spokenpassage]

Hello Spokenpassage,

You have put your own interpretation upon what I said. I did not say that God choses by His foreknowledge.

Please don't do that.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

My apology, this is the reason why I said '(if that's what is presented)'.

Please forgive me.

 

[CWJ]

Thank you for replying with grace, Spokenpassage.

 

[cjordan38]

God does chose who He gives the Ministry gifts to, The Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist Pastor and Teacher.
Because God know who is best suited to what Ministry.

But that is entirely different to salvation, as that is for the whosoever believes, NOT the one's that God choses.

God cannot do as He pleases, He is bound by His word, And He will never go against His word, And His word says, Whosoever believes, repents and get born again shall be saved.

God wouldnt be God if he couldnt do whatever he wanted. The day God cant do whatever he wants is the day this earth and everything in existence will cease.

 

[Jda016]

Jda016, you don't understand, it's much more than a theological debate, it's scriptural truth. If this wasn't in the bible, and if this wasn't important,, then yes everything about this subject is vain and void of any good thing. This is not the case. People who haven't studied this don't think much about it, it's a very important doctrine in the faith of believers.

But do you still do all the things I stated above?

if yes, then there is nothing to worry about.

There are biblical scholars on both sides that say they have the truth and no end ever comes from this debate.

Whether someone is chosen or not, does that stop you from evangelizing?
Whether someone is chosen or not, does that stop you from loving them?
Whether someone is chosen or not, does that stop you from loving God with all your heart?
Whether someone is chosen or not, does that stop you from obeying God?

do you see where I am going with this?

When I was in my early 20's I spent years debating this, because I felt people needed to know, but in the end it caused division between people not unity. Instead of people loving each other in Christ, they started hurling stones at each other all based on whether we were chosen or not.

Jesus said everything is summed up in loving The Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength and second to it is loving your neighbor as yourself. This commandment, the greatest of them all got thrown out the window when debates about predestination vs choice happened.

THAT is the real danger I see.

 

[Spokenpassage]

But do you still do all the things I stated above?

if yes, then there is nothing to worry about.

There are biblical scholars on both sides that say they have the truth and no end ever comes from this debate.

Whether someone is chosen or not, does that stop you from evangelizing?
Whether someone is chosen or not, does that stop you from loving them?
Whether someone is chosen or not, does that stop you from loving God with all your heart?
Whether someone is chosen or not, does that stop you from obeying God?

do you see where I am going with this?

When I was in my early 20's I spent years debating this, because I felt people needed to know, but in the end it caused division between people not unity. Instead of people loving each other in Christ, they started hurling stones at each other all based on whether we were chosen or not.

Jesus said everything is summed up in loving The Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength and second to it is loving your neighbor as yourself. This commandment, the greatest of them all got thrown out the window when debates about predestination vs choice happened.

You don't have to throw stones at each other in debating about scriptural matters. If it ever leads to a point that you think there is both truths to both paths, then that's when we need to study it further, not avoid the subject.

Yes, no one is suggesting we should not love each other, but we are talking about scriptural truth. If you saw someone say that Jesus was scourged for our sins, not die for them. Would you reply back that we need to get over it because everyone has their view, or would you correct such a teaching? (By the way, that was one of the beliefs that historic Arminians believed if I'm not wrong). We must help correct each other so that we may walk in the unity of truth.

Our view of scriptures should not lessen because of other important biblical subjects. We should balance all in all correctly right?

I'm not disagreeing that we shouldn't look for important things, but this is as important because God's sovereignty is being downgraded. This is also dishonor to God.

There is a reason why is so debated, it has value, great value in Christian's understanding.