Does this verse still hold true

[john832]

Ro 10:4 (KJV) For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro 10:4 (ASV) For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro 10:4 (BBE) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who has faith.
Ro 10:4 (DBY) For Christ is [the] end of law for righteousness to every one that believes.
Ro 10:4 (Filip) Sapagka't si Cristo ang kinauuwian ng kautusan sa ikatutuwid ng bawa't sumasampalataya.
Ro 10:4 (MKJV) For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes.
Ro 10:4 (MNT) For to every believer Christ is an end of law as a means of righteousness.
Ro 10:4 (NKJV) For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Ro 10:4 (Oracl) For Christ is the end of the law for justification to every believer.
Ro 10:4 (RST) ïîòîìó ÷òî êîíåö çàêîíà--Õðèñòîñ, ê ïðàâåäíîñòè âñÿêîãî âåðóþùåãî.
Ro 10:4 (RSV) For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.
Ro 10:4 (RVG04) Porque el fin de la ley es Cristo, para justicia a todo aquel que cree.
Ro 10:4 (SRV18) Porque el fin de la ley [es] Cristo, para [dar] justicia a todo aquel que cree.
Ro 10:4 (TCNT) For Christ has brought Law to an end, so that righteousness may be obtained by every one who believes in him.
Ro 10:4 (WEB) For Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Ro 10:4 (WNT) For as a means of righteousness Christ is the termination of Law to every believer.
Ro 10:4 (YLT) For Christ is an end of law for righteousness to every one who is believing,

C'mon, please show us your great education after studying the Law for years and explain the end of Christ and the end of faith...

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

 

[Jason0047]

And Christ says:

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Do you even know what Matthew chapter 5 was talking about before He said this? He was talking about the Beattitudes (i.e. Be-Attitudes) under the New Commands given by Christ. So He was talking New Covenant and not Old Covenant.

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Is there a reason why you left out verse 16? The context of the word "Law" here is in the previous verse before that says... "the Law and the prophets." So Jesus is not just referring to the Law of Moses. Obviously some things have been fulfilled in the prophetic books with Jesus coming.

Mattithyah 19:17-21, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh. He then asked Yahshua; Which ones? Yahshua said: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false testimony. Honor your efather and mother, and; You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Yes, this is all fulfilled in loving one's neighbor. You will not murder your neighbor if your focus is to love them, etc. This is New Covenant and not Old Covenant. One was not told to love your neighbor so as to keep God's Laws before.

The young man said to Him; All these things I have kept from my youth up; what do I yet lack? Yahshua said to him: If you want to come to the perfection of Yahweh, go and sell of what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and you will be walking in Yahweh's ways, and following Me."

Now, why would this young rich ruler have failed in some way? Is selling all that you have and giving it to the poor a Command in the Law of Moses? No. It is something that is only found in the New Testament.

Mattithyah 5:20-30, ""For I say to you: Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will certainly not enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh. You have heard that it was said by the people of ancient times: You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment; But I say to you: Whoever is angry with his brother will be in danger of the judgment! Again, anyone who says; Raca! insulting your brother, will be in danger of the Sanhedrin, but whoever says: Nabel! desiring them to fall away, will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna. Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you; Leave your gift there before the altar, and go first and be reconciled with your brother; then come and offer your gift. Settle a controversy with your accuser quickly, before he gets you into court; or your adversary may deliver you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be put into prison. Truly I say to you: You will never come out of there until you have paid the last penny. You have heard that it was said by the people of ancient times: You shall not commit adultery; But I say to you: Whoever looks on a woman with lust for her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart. So if your right eye causes you to offend; sin, gouge it out and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for the whole body to be cast into Gehenna. Or if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for the whole body to be cast into Gehenna.

Again, speaking badly against your brother was never clearly established in the Old Testament like it is in the New Testament. Also, the Law of Moses does not establish that just looking at a woman is committing adultery in one's heart. This is again... New Testament and not Old Testament. Yes, Jesus is also establishing the moral law in the OT. For the moral law is a part of loving one's neighbor and it is the focus of the New Testament.

 

[john832]

I have already provided many Biblical reasons why Romans 7 cannot be talking about Paul struggling with sin as a Christian. It is talking about Saul/Paul's struggle with sin before he came to Christ. If you do not believe my testimony. Perhaps another person's testimony or explanation on Romans 7 will help you. Please see...

The Romans 7 sin sandwich.

In spite of Paul's clear statements, he was not really saying this...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

present tense

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Oops, how'd that get in there?

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Again present tense and he continues to show that he is not perfect, that he still sins by doinf what?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[john832]

The Law was a school master to bring us unto Christ. In other words, when a person realizes that they are sinners because they break God's Laws, they can be convicted to repent and accept Jesus as their Savior.

The Law of sacrifices, that is what was added...

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

 

[john832]

Yes only those who teach the love of God in Christ are teaching others to keep what the law demanded...not those who teach the written code of Moses.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[Mitspa]

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Aagin John named these commandments as believe and love...same as Paul...even if you believe these are the law of Moses..the ONLY way to "keep" them is to keep them through love...so only those who love keep the commandments.

 

[Mitspa]

The Law of sacrifices, that is what was added...

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

 

[Mitspa]

C'mon, please show us your great education after studying the Law for years and explain the end of Christ and the end of faith...

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

My point was and is that all Greek scholars read this passage just as it clearly reads and in context of what Paul says over and over in the book of Romans...now if there is some group on this forum that has found a way to deny these clear passages, nobody is going to accept that as any form of truth.

 

[Mitspa]

Lemme see, the Law is written in their hearts but they don't obey it? Is that what you are telling me? That somehow, obedience to the Law is changed into something else?

Keeping the Ten Commandments is not the result of the Law written in your heart?

This is very simple...love fulfills all the law...the love of God is shed abroad in out hearts by the Holy Spirit...we as believers take this love and walk in it...thus it is the "law written upon our hearts" Don't you know this love from the Spirit? Have you never loved others with this love? I guess I would ask if you are born-again?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no verse each other eg, they are one in the same... If your walking in the Spirit, we are keeping the laws ( commandments ) Why Yahshua said He came to fulfill it, not do away with it.. The law stands for those who live in the flesh and don't repent, and don't have sincere faith... Through faith we get grace, to learn how to walk in Spirit, not to just do whatever we want, ya know ?

That is not the argument,

The argument is can we be righteous by following the law.

Cause an effect is the argument.

How am I righteous (fulfilling the law) By

1. Following the law (as the lawyers want us to believe)
2. By walking in the spirit (allowing the power of the HS to spread his LOVE to you so you can love others, also known as the law of love)

 

[john832]

That is not the argument,

The argument is can we be righteous by following the law.

The answer is a resounding NO!

Does that in any way change the fact that we should not kill, commit adultery or break any other Commandment?

Same answer, a resounding NO!

Righteousness is imputed to us by grace. Grace is not a license to break the Law with impunity...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Cause an effect is the argument.

How am I righteous (fulfilling the law) By

1. Following the law (as the lawyers want us to believe)
2. By walking in the spirit (allowing the power of the HS to spread his LOVE to you so you can love others, also known as the law of love)

Third question...

Am I guilty of sin if I break the Law?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here it is...

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

All those under the law are in the flesh...no wonder they are so consumed with their sin ...they cannot cease (rest) from sin.

there problem is they do not see their sin, This they do not acknowledge it. Holding themselves up, while judging others.

Just like the pharisees did

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

so how do we do this? Do we do it by following the letter of the law.

Or by the way Jesus told us to do it??

Matthew 22:37-40


[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


I think I will do it Jesus way, As already proven, telling someone not to steal has no power in keeping them from steeling.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can a carnal minded person subject themselves to Yahweh's Law?

Romans 8:8, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

and who are under the flesh.

Rom 7: [SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is exactly what I see and it drives me to my knees daily.

so do you see how you can never keep the law. thus even on your best day, you deserve eternal judgment?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The answer is a resounding NO!

Does that in any way change the fact that we should not kill, commit adultery or break any other Commandment?

again, a faulty argument, no one here is claiming we should or can do those things, that is a ridiculous claim.

Same answer, a resounding NO!

Righteousness is imputed to us by grace. Grace is not a license to break the Law with impunity...

and who here is trying to spread a licentious gospel John? how many times do we have to go over this, you keep shoving this down our throats, when we are NOT TEACHING THIS. are you ever going to be humble enough to admit this, or continue bashing with the same old lies aver and over.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

You do understand that if you focus continually on do not murder, do not commit adultry, do not covet etc etc, you are so focused on those, that you are missing the real sin issue in you life do you not?

That was the pharisee issue, they were focused on those sins by the letter of the law, and totally ignored the sin issue in their own life, pride, self centerdness, and hypocracy.

In Gods eyes, these sins are just as damaging as the ones you keep claiming we should not do.

Third question...

Am I guilty of sin if I break the Law?

as usual, non responsive, why did you not answer my question. Try answering my question, then I will answer yours.

 

[just-me]

Does this verse still hold true? Or is this "OT" and done away?

Proverbs 15:29, "Yahweh is far from the wicked, but He hears the prayer of the righteous."

I believe yes, this verses is just as true today as it was the day it was written.

There are some prayers He will not hear i.e. pay attention to.

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear : your hands are full of blood. Isaiah 1:15

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. Proverbs 28:9

 

[john832]

so do you see how you can never keep the law. thus even on your best day, you deserve eternal judgment?

I've known that all along. Do you think because we cannot keep the Law perfectly, we should just disregard it and do as we please?

 

[Mitspa]

I've known that all along. Do you think because we cannot keep the Law perfectly, we should just disregard it and do as we please?

No we should walk in faith and love and keep the commandments of God in the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've known that all along. Do you think because we cannot keep the Law perfectly, we should just disregard it and do as we please?

You joking right? where does this self righteousness of yours come from. DO you honestly think this is what I am saying? Why are you continually ignoring the fact of what I am trying to say, and instead continually on a battle to say I think we can sin all we want, who cares?

You do realize it is an attitude thing do you not?

Thanks for admitting the law still condemns you. So if they law still condemns you, how can anyone ever get to heaven?.