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K
I highly agree with you BenFTW., the way people label others is outrageous. I listen to a few Word of Faith preachers and none of them have preached the stuff they get accused of on these forums. I don't put out the things I've been accused of either so I know of where I speak too!
I also listen to Charles Stanley and Andy Stanley., David Jeremiah, Billy Graham.,many others over the years. All have wonderful insight into the Bible. God has gifted them with the ability to preach and teach. I like Ravi Zachariahs too especially his question and answer forums with college kids on college campuses or in debates with atheists.
It is a bad practice to throw the word "heretic" around so freely in these forums. I wish people would not do it.
I also listen to Charles Stanley and Andy Stanley., David Jeremiah, Billy Graham.,many others over the years. All have wonderful insight into the Bible. God has gifted them with the ability to preach and teach. I like Ravi Zachariahs too especially his question and answer forums with college kids on college campuses or in debates with atheists.
It is a bad practice to throw the word "heretic" around so freely in these forums. I wish people would not do it.
I don't throw that word heretic around so easily like others do, but the statements I posted in #173 came from Prince.
Those are his words that contradict the bible !!!
L
I answered the first already kenneth and gave you the verse. Believers are convicted of righteousness.
No one has ever said turning from sin is not necessary.,
That is just ridiculous. Repentance is a change of mind and it's done by the renewing of our minds and that is completely biblical. Getting down in the sack cloth and ashes is not for the new covenant believer. Being sorry and showing it by crying an extra 2 hours or avoiding God to show how ashamed we are is NOT biblical. satan wants us to avoid God because he is the accuser of the brethen and all he has is lies. If we know by faith He accepts us in Christ, we do not fear because perfect love casts out fear. God wants us to come boldly to the throne of grace and get HELP in time of need. God does NOT withhold His presence from the new covenant believer. There is NO veil into the Holy of Holies. Jesus death rent the veil in two. We have total access.God does not judge nations as of yet., we are in the time of grace where people are called to receive Jesus Christ the spotless Lamb of God to be our substitute. He became sin for us, He who knew NO sin. Our sin was IMPUTED to Jesus... Jesus righteousness was IMPUTED to us. God's judgment and wrath are not here yet, but it is coming and will be on all those who reject His Son. There is time now to receive Jesus but as the Bible says today is the day of salvation.... Don't wait because Jesus could come back to receive His church anytime now. We are told to look to the glorious appearing of the Great God and our Savior Jesus Christ. That is the blessed hope for the church.
The Bible is God's Word and it says ... Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Not sure what you have posted there on 5 but again it is not accurate.
"we can't take doctrine from the gospels because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead yet?????" what??? You need to listen carefully and not jump the gun or have that knee jerk reaction because that was never said either. It's rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
Some things in the bible were written specifically to the Jews and some to the church and some to the unsaved.
and about 1 John 1:9 and the Gnostic s. again., it's a matter of rightly dividing the Word of truth. I am in agreement with this specific issue since knowing we are already righteous we have no need to be made righteous again or be children of light again., or admit we sin again because we already repented of that and have been saved. It is those who say they have not sinned that make Him a liar. We have already admitted we sinned and accepted the remedy for it. Jesus Christ and a new nature.
Just a very quick run down.
K
I answered the first already kenneth and gave you the verse. Believers are convicted of righteousness.
No one has ever said turning from sin is not necessary., That is just ridiculous. Repentance is a change of mind and it's done by the renewing of our minds and that is completely biblical. Getting down in the sack cloth and ashes is not for the new covenant believer. Being sorry and showing it by crying an extra 2 hours or avoiding God to show how ashamed we are is NOT biblical. satan wants us to avoid God because he is the accuser of the brethen and all he has is lies. If we know by faith He accepts us in Christ, we do not fear because perfect love casts out fear. God wants us to come boldly to the throne of grace and get HELP in time of need. God does NOT withhold His presence from the new covenant believer. There is NO veil into the Holy of Holies. Jesus death rent the veil in two. We have total access.
God does not judge nations as of yet., we are in the time of grace where people are called to receive Jesus Christ the spotless Lamb of God to be our substitute. He became sin for us, He who knew NO sin. Our sin was IMPUTED to Jesus... Jesus righteousness was IMPUTED to us. God's judgment and wrath are not here yet, but it is coming and will be on all those who reject His Son. There is time now to receive Jesus but as the Bible says today is the day of salvation.... Don't wait because Jesus could come back to receive His church anytime now. We are told to look to the glorious appearing of the Great God and our Savior Jesus Christ. That is the blessed hope for the church.
The Bible is God's Word and it says ... Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Not sure what you have posted there on 5 but again it is not accurate.
"we can't take doctrine from the gospels because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead yet?????" what??? You need to listen carefully and not jump the gun or have that knee jerk reaction because that was never said either. It's rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
Some things in the bible were written specifically to the Jews and some to the church and some to the unsaved.
and about 1 John 1:9 and the Gnostic s. again., it's a matter of rightly dividing the Word of truth. I am in agreement with this specific issue since knowing we are already righteous we have no need to be made righteous again or be children of light again., or admit we sin again because we already repented of that and have been saved. It is those who say they have not sinned that make Him a liar. We have already admitted we sinned and accepted the remedy for it. Jesus Christ and a new nature.
Just a very quick run down.
No one has ever said turning from sin is not necessary.,
That is just ridiculous. Repentance is a change of mind and it's done by the renewing of our minds and that is completely biblical. Getting down in the sack cloth and ashes is not for the new covenant believer. Being sorry and showing it by crying an extra 2 hours or avoiding God to show how ashamed we are is NOT biblical. satan wants us to avoid God because he is the accuser of the brethen and all he has is lies. If we know by faith He accepts us in Christ, we do not fear because perfect love casts out fear. God wants us to come boldly to the throne of grace and get HELP in time of need. God does NOT withhold His presence from the new covenant believer. There is NO veil into the Holy of Holies. Jesus death rent the veil in two. We have total access.God does not judge nations as of yet., we are in the time of grace where people are called to receive Jesus Christ the spotless Lamb of God to be our substitute. He became sin for us, He who knew NO sin. Our sin was IMPUTED to Jesus... Jesus righteousness was IMPUTED to us. God's judgment and wrath are not here yet, but it is coming and will be on all those who reject His Son. There is time now to receive Jesus but as the Bible says today is the day of salvation.... Don't wait because Jesus could come back to receive His church anytime now. We are told to look to the glorious appearing of the Great God and our Savior Jesus Christ. That is the blessed hope for the church.
The Bible is God's Word and it says ... Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Not sure what you have posted there on 5 but again it is not accurate.
"we can't take doctrine from the gospels because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead yet?????" what??? You need to listen carefully and not jump the gun or have that knee jerk reaction because that was never said either. It's rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
Some things in the bible were written specifically to the Jews and some to the church and some to the unsaved.
and about 1 John 1:9 and the Gnostic s. again., it's a matter of rightly dividing the Word of truth. I am in agreement with this specific issue since knowing we are already righteous we have no need to be made righteous again or be children of light again., or admit we sin again because we already repented of that and have been saved. It is those who say they have not sinned that make Him a liar. We have already admitted we sinned and accepted the remedy for it. Jesus Christ and a new nature.
Just a very quick run down.
I mean this with no offense so don't take it the wrong way but you ramble on instead of just simply answer the question.
Read Hebrews 12 about the chastising of the believer when they sin, this is done by Lord through the Holy Spirit to us......
You then said nobody said turning from sin is not necessary, but Joseph Prince made that comment I posted so he did say it......
We are to show Godly sorrow that leads to repentance, which means we are to show that we are sincerely sorry for what we have done when we repent and confess of those sins. This means you no longer desire to do them any more !!!
Are you sure about that with God judging nations???
The OT clearly shows when He judged places back then, and whenever a empire or country fell in the bible and the financial crisis and such that nations have faced in past and recent history. Guess who's hand was behind those rise and falls to fulfill His will??? It was God as He puts everything in place good and bad to fulfill His will !!!
Exactly as those things not being accurate with the bible, and those things I posted were said by Joseph Prince not me !!!
Prince is the one that made that comment about the word of God doesn't produce faith, it is the word of Christ that produces faith. I guess he forgot that Jesus words are God's words !!!
That was to said by Joseph Prince as those are his comments, so even if you want to still deny he said those things it is not correct for he did. Most of the statements I have and I have a list of over 50 of them, and they either came from the 5 sermons I saw or from his book "Destined to Reign."
No the New Testament was written to all believers Jews and Gentiles alike, the bible makes no difference between us and them.......
The bible nowhere shows a one time repentance covers all past, present, and future sins.
That is a misrepresentation of scripture and does away with the writings of Peter and Paul where they both say only past sins were forgiven. Future sins still have to be confessed/repented of to receive the remission from the Lord !!!
Jesus even gives an example of using repentance multiple times in Luke 17:3-4 !!!
K
I did present lots of scriptural evidence. I engaged in alot of conversation which involves stating the facts that JP is a heretic Where have you been? .I didnt insinuate you are lazy . That is your perception without my words as evidence therefore conjecture on your part.
Where have you been? .I didnt insinuate you are lazy . That is your perception without my words as evidence therefore conjecture on your part.Yes I just posted 5 things that Joseph Prince said from the sermons he gave, and they still tried to deny he said them.
I even have a list of over 50 of his statements he said in his book "Destined to Reign" that completely contradict the teachings in the bible.
C
haha, good call. discussions are ok.
Still haven't been given any clarity as to why, when we are all called to love our neighbour as ourselves is there so much difference in wealth and status etc throughout Christianity. Surely if each one loved each other as themselves there would be a clear unity and a level playing field across Christianity. There is not even that within cities.?
It would be the perfect type of..... Communism ???
Still haven't been given any clarity as to why, when we are all called to love our neighbour as ourselves is there so much difference in wealth and status etc throughout Christianity. Surely if each one loved each other as themselves there would be a clear unity and a level playing field across Christianity. There is not even that within cities.?
It would be the perfect type of..... Communism ???
L
It's too bad we can't all be in a kitchen with our coffee mugs and have opportunity to clearly state what we are saying. You know., like the presidential debates when each person has a few minutes to explain their view.
I find it to be sometimes difficult to post each issue with as much clarity as it needs. It takes sooooo long to post all the verses and re-explain something that has been totally mis understood and taken out of context. Hearing the "rest of the story" goes a long way in understanding the whole.
The law was given to show us our utter hopelessness to be perfect as the law requires.. Getting saved didn't give us the ability to live under the law, it gives us the freedom to live under grace and not the condemnation of the law. The enemy uses the law to condemn us. He beats us with the law. Some churches beat their members with the law.
Grace enables us to stand before the law not condemned. "Holiness is a byproduct of seeing Jesus in His grace. not moral reformation or behavior modification but a changed nature sustained in the heart by His grace."
2 Cor.3:18
"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself not counting their trespasses against them and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. vs. 21 "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" We have His righteousness.
The law has no power to change us., the law never changed anyone. Grace is what teaches us and changes us.
(Arguing is not fun.)
I find it to be sometimes difficult to post each issue with as much clarity as it needs. It takes sooooo long to post all the verses and re-explain something that has been totally mis understood and taken out of context. Hearing the "rest of the story" goes a long way in understanding the whole.
The law was given to show us our utter hopelessness to be perfect as the law requires.. Getting saved didn't give us the ability to live under the law, it gives us the freedom to live under grace and not the condemnation of the law. The enemy uses the law to condemn us. He beats us with the law. Some churches beat their members with the law.
Grace enables us to stand before the law not condemned. "Holiness is a byproduct of seeing Jesus in His grace. not moral reformation or behavior modification but a changed nature sustained in the heart by His grace."
2 Cor.3:18
"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself not counting their trespasses against them and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. vs. 21 "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" We have His righteousness.
The law has no power to change us., the law never changed anyone. Grace is what teaches us and changes us.
(Arguing is not fun.)
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I have a Daddy too. Jesus called Him "Abba Father" which simply means "Daddy" Taking time to learn from others can be very beneficial. I didn't learn this fact until just about a year ago. He IS a wonderful Daddy Father.
Taking time to learn from others can be very beneficial. I didn't learn this fact until just about a year ago. He IS a wonderful Daddy Father.
Yes indeed! Taking time to learn from others can be beneficial ! I agree!
The argument is that the word “Abba” means “daddy.”
I thought the ESV Study Bible point a very concise argument together for this point:
6:9 Father (Gk. patēr, “father”) would have been “Abba” in Aramaic, the everyday language spoken by Jesus (cf. Mark 14:36; Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6). It was the word used by Jewish children for their earthly fathers. However, since the term in both Aramaic and Greek was also used by adults to address their fathers, the claim that “Abba” meant “Daddy” is misleading and runs the risk of irreverence. Nevertheless, the idea of praying to God as “Our Father” conveys the authority, warmth, and intimacy of a loving father’s care, while in heaven reminds believers of God’s sovereign rule over all things
Author Brent Kercheville
Just another view.
C
I believe, I am pretty sure, most of what you are saying. It was interesting for me to hear what that guy had to say because I can give you an example from my own experience that related to it.
I read the verse about hot, cold or lukewarm also. When I knew God I went through a 'dry patch'. I found it difficult to get out of that and upon reflection I believe it was probably because of cramming too much knowledge (law) and not enough conviction from the Holy Spirit.
Because I knew what God did to the 'lukewarm' I decided to backslide and go the total opposite direction. Seemed like the better option as trying and failing was getting me no where.
However, from the position I stand now (still backslidden but searching again) I look at these church's and the way these messengers of God are standing there in there posh suits, in there mega church's, with there special seatings and ever increasing wealth I wonder, is that really coming from you God?
I read the verse about hot, cold or lukewarm also. When I knew God I went through a 'dry patch'. I found it difficult to get out of that and upon reflection I believe it was probably because of cramming too much knowledge (law) and not enough conviction from the Holy Spirit.
Because I knew what God did to the 'lukewarm' I decided to backslide and go the total opposite direction. Seemed like the better option as trying and failing was getting me no where.
However, from the position I stand now (still backslidden but searching again) I look at these church's and the way these messengers of God are standing there in there posh suits, in there mega church's, with there special seatings and ever increasing wealth I wonder, is that really coming from you God?
Mixing law and grace with the carnal mind is like two deep ditches on either side of the straight and narrow path leading to the "strait Gate." One ditch can be "liberalism" = "grace," and the other can be legalism" = "law." When these problems arrive in a persons life, it is because of a carnal mindset, and then both the understanding of the law and grace are deceptive.
When a person shuns the carnal mind, after recognizing that both the law and grace are from the same unchanging God, the liberalism and legalism vanishes, and both the law and grace are equally important, and by no means contradictory with one another.
Matthew 7:13-14
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7
When a person shuns the carnal mind, after recognizing that both the law and grace are from the same unchanging God, the liberalism and legalism vanishes, and both the law and grace are equally important, and by no means contradictory with one another.
Matthew 7:13-14
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7
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O
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EPHSIANS 4:23.24.27.
And be you renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that you put on the 'new man', which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Neither give place to the devil....
the transition from carnal thinking to Spiritual thinking is a labor of love -
the carnal mind will take the scriptures as a series of requests and options -
but the Spiritual mind sees the Word of God as requirements and Commands,
and they are not grievous or burdensome, quite the contrary, they are another
labor of Love and are totally liberating.
it is written; Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth
out of the mouth of God.'
if our minds are being renewed, the words of our mouth and our written words will bear witness.
the number one mark of the carnal mind is that it is 'self-serving', but the Spiritual mind
will be serving the will of God first and second serving his fellow believers in Love,
never exalting himself, but always walking in humility.
1COR.15.58.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable,
always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know
that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
EPHSIANS 4:23.24.27.
And be you renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that you put on the 'new man', which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Neither give place to the devil....
the transition from carnal thinking to Spiritual thinking is a labor of love -
the carnal mind will take the scriptures as a series of requests and options -
but the Spiritual mind sees the Word of God as requirements and Commands,
and they are not grievous or burdensome, quite the contrary, they are another
labor of Love and are totally liberating.
it is written; Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth
out of the mouth of God.'
if our minds are being renewed, the words of our mouth and our written words will bear witness.
the number one mark of the carnal mind is that it is 'self-serving', but the Spiritual mind
will be serving the will of God first and second serving his fellow believers in Love,
never exalting himself, but always walking in humility.
1COR.15.58.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable,
always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know
that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
L
The problem for the Christian is not that we are trying to live in sin and that be - carnally minded, it's trying to live the Christian life through our own ability--that is carnally minded. Paul is contrasting the hopeless struggle of the flesh to live holy which he describes in Romans 7:15-24 Therefore he is portraying that trying to obtain holiness through the flesh is carnal. All our self righteousness is carnal too.
We have to deny our natural way of thinking and be led by the Spirit of God to walk pleasing to God. Heb. 11:6 says without faith it is impossible to please God. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal.5:22-23 and CANNOT be produced by human effort.
The Christian life is not just hard to live, it is impossible to live in our own ability. Yet that is what many of us have tried to do and still do at times. We keep having to go back to how faith in Jesus finished work on the cross on our behalf is how we can have the victory over carnality. Looking to Jesus not ourselves.
And yet that dependence is not something for the baby Christian. It is totally human and carnal to need a set of rules to follow in order to be hitting the mark. That makes us feel good about ourselves but it does not cause us to live in faith. It gives us a false sense of holiness - that is carnal.
The mature believer sees how faith is the answer to all our issues as we walk the Christian life out here on earth. 1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.
Again, we have to deny our natural way of thinking and be led by the Spirit of God to walk pleasing to Him. This is for the Christian who is living under the new covenant and not the old one. The old covenant required works where the new covenant requires faith.
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