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This also occurred to me. I think people are asking why did Jesus use these words. My take on it is Jesus is expressing how he is feeling emotionally, lost and abandoned. When David wrote the words he equally felt depressed and unhappy.
Because Paul says Jesus became sin for us, people then extrapolated this into some odd breaking of the communion between the Father and the Son. For people emotionally shut down, this theological approach is easier to take, than understand the tearing nature of being crucified and the pain of both, death, a hurt and bleeding body, and being abandoned by all the disciples. When I read a book on the scourging, the tortures, mocking etc Jesus had. Seeing the Turin shroud which demonstrates the extent of this torture is enough to break anyone.
It is always easier to have a distant Jesus, resolving sin at a distance, not this naked man dying so openly before us, feeling torn but constrained by love. It is something we find hard to get our heads around or even see. What a great King He is.
Because Paul says Jesus became sin for us, people then extrapolated this into some odd breaking of the communion between the Father and the Son. For people emotionally shut down, this theological approach is easier to take, than understand the tearing nature of being crucified and the pain of both, death, a hurt and bleeding body, and being abandoned by all the disciples. When I read a book on the scourging, the tortures, mocking etc Jesus had. Seeing the Turin shroud which demonstrates the extent of this torture is enough to break anyone.
It is always easier to have a distant Jesus, resolving sin at a distance, not this naked man dying so openly before us, feeling torn but constrained by love. It is something we find hard to get our heads around or even see. What a great King He is.
It mentions here
"the blueness" of the wound and stripes inwardly
Prov 20:30
The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil:
so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
Whereas with Christ, it also says,
Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.
"The chastisement of" our peace" (was upon him)
1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,
that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness:
by whose stripes ye were healed.
Christ knew no sin, but was made sin for us, being wounded for ours,
just as the chastisement of our peace was upon him, speaks of his stripes (for our part)
Whereas again
Prov 20:30
The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil:
so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
Inward parts
Psalm 5:9
For there is no faithfulness in their mouth;
their inward part is very wickedness;
their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
Inward part as by Christ
Luke 11:39
And the Lord said unto him,
Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter;
but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
And again, truth in the inward
Psalm 51:6
Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts:
and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
A new heart I will give to you.
He was crucified in the "place of the skull" (even as that is where we were enemies of him) in our mind. He write his laws in there, inward parts. The forehead, the place of the skull, mind of the Spirit verses carnally minded (is death). Inward things in that picture.
"the blueness" of the wound and stripes inwardly
Prov 20:30
The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil:
so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
Whereas with Christ, it also says,
Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.
"The chastisement of" our peace" (was upon him)
1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,
that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness:
by whose stripes ye were healed.
Christ knew no sin, but was made sin for us, being wounded for ours,
just as the chastisement of our peace was upon him, speaks of his stripes (for our part)
Whereas again
Prov 20:30
The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil:
so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
Inward parts
Psalm 5:9
For there is no faithfulness in their mouth;
their inward part is very wickedness;
their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
Inward part as by Christ
Luke 11:39
And the Lord said unto him,
Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter;
but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
And again, truth in the inward
Psalm 51:6
Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts:
and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
A new heart I will give to you.
He was crucified in the "place of the skull" (even as that is where we were enemies of him) in our mind. He write his laws in there, inward parts. The forehead, the place of the skull, mind of the Spirit verses carnally minded (is death). Inward things in that picture.
P
Taking the events that are just before and what takes place after Jesus makes this statement it is possible that Jesus said this as a witness to the unbelieving Jews that were present.
I noted that prior to this was the 3hrs of darkness which I was led to the 9th plague on Egypt. Which I posted in another thread asking about the meaning of the darkness.
When reading exodus 10 I noted the similarities in the contents (the darkness lasting for3days) 3hrs of darkness....Jesus in the tomb 3days..
Also Moses and Israel could go and worship the Lord but without the flocks for sacrifice and offering.
And of course coming upon the 10th plague which is death of the first born.
As a reminder let me express that this is all about the Passover.......soooo back to the cross....
After Jesus cried my God my God etc in the book of Matt. Some say he called on the prophet Elijah to save him, suddenly someone runs to offer him gall. Now this drink was used in 2ways, to ease pain or to hurry up death. Does the scandal continue with the Pharisees and Jesus at Calvary?
Jesus with his last attempt to show who he was reciting psalm 22, just before was that darkness for 3hrs which could of been a reminder of the 9th plague which would of been read in the temple during. Passover.
Do you think that this instilled the fear that compelled the priests and such to ask Pilate to put a guard on the tomb? Fabricating the story that it was to keep the body from being stolen?.
As I said total speculation but I am not convinced of a separation.......yet
.
I noted that prior to this was the 3hrs of darkness which I was led to the 9th plague on Egypt. Which I posted in another thread asking about the meaning of the darkness.
When reading exodus 10 I noted the similarities in the contents (the darkness lasting for3days) 3hrs of darkness....Jesus in the tomb 3days..
Also Moses and Israel could go and worship the Lord but without the flocks for sacrifice and offering.
And of course coming upon the 10th plague which is death of the first born.
As a reminder let me express that this is all about the Passover.......soooo back to the cross....
After Jesus cried my God my God etc in the book of Matt. Some say he called on the prophet Elijah to save him, suddenly someone runs to offer him gall. Now this drink was used in 2ways, to ease pain or to hurry up death. Does the scandal continue with the Pharisees and Jesus at Calvary?
Jesus with his last attempt to show who he was reciting psalm 22, just before was that darkness for 3hrs which could of been a reminder of the 9th plague which would of been read in the temple during. Passover.
Do you think that this instilled the fear that compelled the priests and such to ask Pilate to put a guard on the tomb? Fabricating the story that it was to keep the body from being stolen?.
As I said total speculation but I am not convinced of a separation.......yet
.
Matthew 12:39-40
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
[SUP]40 [/SUP]For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Psalm 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Was God with Jonah while he was in the belly of the whale? Of course He was. Or Jonah wouldn't have made it. He wouldn't have 'risen again' as it were.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
[SUP]40 [/SUP]For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Psalm 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Was God with Jonah while he was in the belly of the whale? Of course He was. Or Jonah wouldn't have made it. He wouldn't have 'risen again' as it were.
E
1. the penalty of sin is death (adam died the moment he sinned, Although he did not physically pass away for 900 soe years)
2. As you said, My sin was placed on Jesus
3. The penalty of sin is death (Jesus died the moment my sin was placed on him)
4. Jesus later said, It is finished "greek tetelestia - a legal term meaning a debt has been paid in full"
5. He then gave up the spirit, and died physically.
It is not brain surgery, or complex math, it is just trying to show what jesus did on the cross. If the penalty of sin is death ,Then jesus died on the 9th hour, before he died physically. So what do we call that death?
Many call it spiritual death..
thus you have the doctrine of spiritual death, as prophesied in Psalms 22..
2. As you said, My sin was placed on Jesus
3. The penalty of sin is death (Jesus died the moment my sin was placed on him)
4. Jesus later said, It is finished "greek tetelestia - a legal term meaning a debt has been paid in full"
5. He then gave up the spirit, and died physically.
It is not brain surgery, or complex math, it is just trying to show what jesus did on the cross. If the penalty of sin is death ,Then jesus died on the 9th hour, before he died physically. So what do we call that death?
Many call it spiritual death..
thus you have the doctrine of spiritual death, as prophesied in Psalms 22..
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
It is the blood of the Lamb that atoned for our sin.
Nowhere does it say that it is the spiritual death of the lamb that is required to atone for our sin.
I don't know where you get this idea that a spiritual death is required to purge sins. I keep asking for scripture.
It is the blood of the Lamb that atoned for our sin.
Nowhere does it say that it is the spiritual death of the lamb that is required to atone for our sin.
I don't know where you get this idea that a spiritual death is required to purge sins. I keep asking for scripture.
F
God told Adam that in the day that you eat of the fruit you will die. And yet Adam lived physically for hundreds of years after that. Did God make a mistake in saying they would die in the day that they ate? If man died spiritually as a result of the fall, then why would you think that man would not need to be redeemed spiritually in order to restore the spiritual life that was lost in the garden?
The unassumed is the unredeemed.
The unassumed is the unredeemed.
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E
the penalty of sin is death.
What death? I keep asking, I already proved physical death was not the punishment (if it was, anyone who died physically would be granted eternal life, because they paid for their own sin)
Blood represents something it is what gives life.. What gives us spiritual life? What was lost when that barrier of sin was placed between God and man?
What death? I keep asking, I already proved physical death was not the punishment (if it was, anyone who died physically would be granted eternal life, because they paid for their own sin)
Blood represents something it is what gives life.. What gives us spiritual life? What was lost when that barrier of sin was placed between God and man?
F
Exactly. Whatever it is about man that is fallen and corrupted by sin must be assumed by Christ in His humanity in order to bring about healing, redemption. No spiritual death, no new spiritual life for us to be born again too. He had to suffer all of the death consequences of sin that man incurred.
Aren't we, as CHRISTIANS, allowed to see how human JESUS was? How human HE was when He sweated drops of blood in the garden, or weep while looking over Jerusalem, how physically He fell under the burden of His own cross and had to have someone else carry it to Calvary? How human He was when He felt rage and disgust when temple sellers were abusing the temple grounds, making it a den of thieves? JESUS did not sweet talk to them. JESUS made a whip and started snapping it..violently turning over the tables, setting the animals free, spilling the monies, yelling and much more! Did we not see His tears when He was told that His friend Lazarus had died 4 days earlier? When JESUS looked up into heaven while suffering and taking on the sins of the world as a sacrificial Lamb...no wonder for a moment that GOD, His Father, had to turn away in despair, for GOD and sin cannot touch. At that moment, how hard was it for a loving Father to not want to reach down and touch, soothe, wipe the sweat, dry the tears of His suffering Son, before the last breath on earth was taken? But Holy GOD had to turn His head. But praise GOD, for we know how the story ended. GOD exalted the name of JESUS above ALL names!
F
In Christianity we have focused much on the deity of Christ, and rightfully so, but in doing so we have tended to neglect the humanity of Christ. It is the unique nature of Jesus as fully God AND fully man, and our not fully grasping the meaning and consequences of that, that is at the heart of our inability to accept that, as a man, He could die spiritually as well as physically.