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Replace the word religion with christian legalism. Changing the use of words does not change the point you are making, or even make it more relevant. And yes ofcourse legalism has these problems with it.
By the way not all Jews or people in Israel where legalists, like Moses or the Prophets or Jesus.
By the way not all Jews or people in Israel where legalists, like Moses or the Prophets or Jesus.
E
This makes no sense Grandpa, not even physical death is permanent, It is on a temporary separation of the soul and body until they are reunited by God at the ressurection (the body being renewed and perfect. or the body being sent to hell forever)
My God My God why have you forsaken me.
That says it clearly..
As the body is temporarily seperated from the soul at physical death as a result of sin. Jesus was temporarily separated from God the father and spirit because of our sin being placed on his body. It was at that time he screamed in pain.. Once gthe penalty of sin was completed.. He was re-united withe the father and spirit. never to be separated again.. This is our salvation.
To all who have been born again, this applies to us also. because Jesus lives, we will live.
Jesus body is not in the grave because it was ressurected. Jesus physical death was no more permanent than his spiritual death
My God My God why have you forsaken me.
That says it clearly..
As the body is temporarily seperated from the soul at physical death as a result of sin. Jesus was temporarily separated from God the father and spirit because of our sin being placed on his body. It was at that time he screamed in pain.. Once gthe penalty of sin was completed.. He was re-united withe the father and spirit. never to be separated again.. This is our salvation.
To all who have been born again, this applies to us also. because Jesus lives, we will live.
Jesus body is not in the grave because it was ressurected. Jesus physical death was no more permanent than his spiritual death
E
it still leaves the question.
If jesus did not suffer the penalty of death we all are born with. How can he say he redeemed us?
If I owe a million dollars because of sometime I did. My father can not just say, Here I will pay it, your free of all debt.. Unless he pays it, If he does not pay the million dollars. I will still be held accountable to pay that debt..
A slave was redeemed when his purchase price was paid in full.
A prisonler was released, when his penalty was paid in full..
In fact they had a document, with the word translated in the english as "it is finished" which they would show any time anyone confronted them about their crime. SO they could never be charged for it again..
This definition is precisely why the Lord Jesus Christ could never have experienced spiritual death.
Even when He died and went to where the spirits in captivity were He preached to them. If He was separated from the presence of the spiritual life of God He would only know defeat and would have nothing to preach.
He couldn't have risen again. He would be just as powerless as the captives He was preaching to.
Even when He died and went to where the spirits in captivity were He preached to them. If He was separated from the presence of the spiritual life of God He would only know defeat and would have nothing to preach.
He couldn't have risen again. He would be just as powerless as the captives He was preaching to.
Jesus is calling out to God about being abandoned.
Is it true we all accept we do not commune enough with the Lord? We too often are hurt and wish things to be different?
So is not our goal is life to commune more with Christ and God, to follow him more nearly and walk in His ways?
However you express this, walking in the Spirit, walking in love, commiting everything you do to the Lord, is that not our joint goal?
It seems though some believe that they need to point out the failures and tell everyone who they are. Did Jesus ever encourage people to do this or rather to walk in righteousness and deal with sin.
We are warned not to be condemning about each other, but encourage and love one another. But the torrent of telling who is saved and who is not, what is real spirituality and what is not is continuous. There must be a deep insecurity that they are doing something seriously wrong to be this agressive and condemning of ordinary believers.
Is it true we all accept we do not commune enough with the Lord? We too often are hurt and wish things to be different?
So is not our goal is life to commune more with Christ and God, to follow him more nearly and walk in His ways?
However you express this, walking in the Spirit, walking in love, commiting everything you do to the Lord, is that not our joint goal?
It seems though some believe that they need to point out the failures and tell everyone who they are. Did Jesus ever encourage people to do this or rather to walk in righteousness and deal with sin.
We are warned not to be condemning about each other, but encourage and love one another. But the torrent of telling who is saved and who is not, what is real spirituality and what is not is continuous. There must be a deep insecurity that they are doing something seriously wrong to be this agressive and condemning of ordinary believers.
He did suffer the penalty of death we are all born with.
He went to the same prison, in the spirit, that all who died went before Him.
To say that He was exactly as they were, spiritually dead, would be to say that He had no power to take them out of there.
And no power to Rise Again.
Can you show in scripture how a spiritual death is required for the penalty of sin?
He went to the same prison, in the spirit, that all who died went before Him.
To say that He was exactly as they were, spiritually dead, would be to say that He had no power to take them out of there.
And no power to Rise Again.
Can you show in scripture how a spiritual death is required for the penalty of sin?
E
But he said it was finished, and John tells us all had been fulfilled before he went there.. I think that is the part we are missing..
He was not spiritually dead by this time,, His relationship with the father had already been restored. the penalty of sin was completed..
Scripture says God raised him from the dead, he did not rise himself..
col 2: [SUP]11 [/SUP]In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[SUP][c][/SUP] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, [SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead
If spiritual death is not the penalty of sin, And physical death is not.
Then what did God mean when he told adam in the moment you sin he would die. and what did God mean when he said we are dead because of sin.. (the wage of sin is death)
is there another death I am missing?
He was not spiritually dead by this time,, His relationship with the father had already been restored. the penalty of sin was completed..
Scripture says God raised him from the dead, he did not rise himself..
col 2: [SUP]11 [/SUP]In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[SUP][c][/SUP] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, [SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead
If spiritual death is not the penalty of sin, And physical death is not.
Then what did God mean when he told adam in the moment you sin he would die. and what did God mean when he said we are dead because of sin.. (the wage of sin is death)
is there another death I am missing?
How does God become separated, even temporarily, from Himself?
That's what you are calling spiritual death, separation of from the presence of God, right?
Is spiritual death only separation from God the Father? Or is it separation from God the Holy Spirit? Is it separation from God the Son?
Is it possible to be separated from God the Father but not God the Holy Spirit or God the Son? And any other combination you can come up with?
That's what you are calling spiritual death, separation of from the presence of God, right?
Is spiritual death only separation from God the Father? Or is it separation from God the Holy Spirit? Is it separation from God the Son?
Is it possible to be separated from God the Father but not God the Holy Spirit or God the Son? And any other combination you can come up with?
E
I am saying seperated. presence of God has nothing to do with it. Adam was in the presence of god after he sinned..
My God (father) My God (spirit)..
The son was the one who was seperated, he hung on the cross.
to be seperated just means that, separated.
Your in the family of God (united) or your dead to God (seperated) you can not be both..
Adam died the moment he sinned,, He was separated from God,, and would have went to hell if God did not make a way to restore adam to himself.
My God (father) My God (spirit)..
The son was the one who was seperated, he hung on the cross.
to be seperated just means that, separated.
Your in the family of God (united) or your dead to God (seperated) you can not be both..
Adam died the moment he sinned,, He was separated from God,, and would have went to hell if God did not make a way to restore adam to himself.
I was looking at this
1Ch 28:20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it:
fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee,nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.
Whereas here
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar,
he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
But the works for the service and the words surround that, since we are the Fathers house, and we offer up spiritual sacrifices by Christ (who is our sarcifice) for His house. Well, just a snippet from what I was looking at in a somparitive sense to other things but something I was considering is all.
1Ch 28:20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it:
fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee,nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.
Whereas here
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar,
he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
But the works for the service and the words surround that, since we are the Fathers house, and we offer up spiritual sacrifices by Christ (who is our sarcifice) for His house. Well, just a snippet from what I was looking at in a somparitive sense to other things but something I was considering is all.
C
I think this is a good explanation:
https://www.gty.org/resources/print/bible-qna/BQ032913
When Christ was*forsaken*by the Father, their separation was not one of nature, essence, or substance. Christ did not in any sense or degree cease to exist as God or as a member of the Trinity. He did not cease to be the Son, any more than a child who sins severely against his human father ceases to be his child. But Jesus did for a while cease to know the intimacy of fellowship with His heavenly Father, just as a disobedient child ceases for a while to have intimate, normal, loving fellowship with his human father.
https://www.gty.org/resources/print/bible-qna/BQ032913
When Christ was*forsaken*by the Father, their separation was not one of nature, essence, or substance. Christ did not in any sense or degree cease to exist as God or as a member of the Trinity. He did not cease to be the Son, any more than a child who sins severely against his human father ceases to be his child. But Jesus did for a while cease to know the intimacy of fellowship with His heavenly Father, just as a disobedient child ceases for a while to have intimate, normal, loving fellowship with his human father.
P
Why is it that we assume there was a separation from the father? Is it because it's what been taught for ages or are there scriptures backing this up?
Traditional teaching can make ones growth stagnant. Because the scripture is in the form of a question does that mean that Jesus was talking about himself?
What would be the purpose of the out cry?
Scripture tells us yet while we were sinners Christ died for us. That nothing can separate us from the love of God. Jesus also said he would never forsake us or leave us, and if you seen me you seen the father.
Now setting the stage for the 9th hr Jesus in total obedience to God the father makes himself a perfect sacrifice becoming sin but remaining sinless.
Am I missing something or just hardheaded? Not saying any of the responses are wrong but it just doesn't add up in my little pea brain mind.
Traditional teaching can make ones growth stagnant. Because the scripture is in the form of a question does that mean that Jesus was talking about himself?
What would be the purpose of the out cry?
Scripture tells us yet while we were sinners Christ died for us. That nothing can separate us from the love of God. Jesus also said he would never forsake us or leave us, and if you seen me you seen the father.
Now setting the stage for the 9th hr Jesus in total obedience to God the father makes himself a perfect sacrifice becoming sin but remaining sinless.
Am I missing something or just hardheaded? Not saying any of the responses are wrong but it just doesn't add up in my little pea brain mind.