Eli, Eli, lama Sabachthani?

[Grandpa]

the penalty of sin is death.

What death? I keep asking, I already proved physical death was not the punishment (if it was, anyone who died physically would be granted eternal life, because they paid for their own sin)

Blood represents something it is what gives life.. What gives us spiritual life? What was lost when that barrier of sin was placed between God and man?

The penalty of sin is death. Physical death.

When the lamb was killed as a sacrifice, its Spirit wasn't killed or taken. It was just a physical death. Its blood was required. Not its spirit. Its the blood that atones for sin.

If a person hasn't been given the Spirit then that physical death becomes permanent death.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The penalty of sin is death. Physical death.

Every man dies. So is every man going to heaven? Think about what your insinuating grampa..

When the lamb was killed as a sacrifice, its Spirit wasn't killed or taken. It was just a physical death. Its blood was required. Not its spirit. Its the blood that atones for sin.

What was the scapegoat?? The death just prefigured Christ. it is the blood that gives life. Christ is that blood.. Sadly, When we were separated. we required the lifeblood of Christ. that is the meaning behind the sacrifices.

And again, Jesus said it is finished BEFORE he died physically.. Unless he lied, and he had one more thing to do to complete the plan of salvation. In which case, we are still dead in our sin.. Jesus committed sin.

And again, God told Adam, In the moment you sin, you will surely die.. If God did not die in that moment, again God lied.

If a person hasn't been given the Spirit then that physical death becomes permanent death.

But if physical death is the penalty, then they just paid for their own sin.. See the problem..

Again, Why do I have to be born again if I am already alive? What death have I died as a result of sin, that I need forgiven f that sin to be made alive.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Do you think that the spiritual life that man had in the garden has been restored?

To Believers, yes.

 

[PeterJens]

A funny thing is argument style. Do not oppose a point, but just suggest it is wrong, I mean do you know what you are saying. "Do you read what you have written." "Do you understand what you are insinuating."

The power is in getting the author to criticize their own work without the accuser declaring their problem. It is designed to discourage and not generate discussion.

Everything is said with certainty, I am right and you are a stupid contributor. It is neither fair to either party or honest about the subject under discussion. But then often people who use this language regard the enemy as unsaved doomed to hell. "One is evil, and all who follow him will follow him to hell."

I would never trust anyone who was this judgemental and pompous.
The "Hell" they are talking of is eternal torture. Now this is being said of bible believing christians who dare not not hold certain views on eternal security. So if you want to agree with this preacher, they have already brought judgement on themselves

"By the measure you give it will be measured unto you"

Ofcourse because they are saved they could never be judged like this. But if you call a fellow brother "a fool" you are liable to judgement. I think people should be more careful how they talk about salvation and eternal damnation rather than talking as if they have divine authority to lay down the law. All I have is scripture, my heart and the Holy Spirit, and much is not clear or defined. If you have no fear of God, trampling around this area holds no problems.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A funny thing is argument style. Do not oppose a point, but just suggest it is wrong, I mean do you know what you are saying. "Do you read what you have written." "Do you understand what you are insinuating."

The power is in getting the author to criticize their own work without the accuser declaring their problem. It is designed to discourage and not generate discussion.

Everything is said with certainty, I am right and you are a stupid contributor. It is neither fair to either party or honest about the subject under discussion. But then often people who use this language regard the enemy as unsaved doomed to hell. "One is evil, and all who follow him will follow him to hell."

I would never trust anyone who was this judgemental and pompous.
The "Hell" they are talking of is eternal torture. Now this is being said of bible believing christians who dare not not hold certain views on eternal security. So if you want to agree with this preacher, they have already brought judgement on themselves

"By the measure you give it will be measured unto you"

Ofcourse because they are saved they could never be judged like this. But if you call a fellow brother "a fool" you are liable to judgement. I think people should be more careful how they talk about salvation and eternal damnation rather than talking as if they have divine authority to lay down the law. All I have is scripture, my heart and the Holy Spirit, and much is not clear or defined. If you have no fear of God, trampling around this area holds no problems.

1. Grandpa knows I am not judging him
2. Grandpa and I are fine..
3. Grandpa and I are having a discussion
4. I will not condemn grandpa if we never agree here, Nor will he me. Nor will I think any less of him, He is my brother in Christ and always will be
5. Grandpa does not have to bear false witness against me, Attack me, or get mad at me, Because He knows I am not condemning, I am just discussing.. Same goes for me,, I do not have to say a thing against grandpa. Because I know his character. and am not trying to assume I know what he believes. I actually ask him so I understand as we always have each other..

I know, You do not know how to have these types of conversations. Being told you are wrong or you have sinned brings out the worse in you..

Again, You need to look inside, You brought this all on yourself.. Because you refuse to listen to ANYTHING anyone says, and keep proving it every time you speak. And get ANGRY and attack when you are confronted. Yet you refuse to even confess your own sin when you have your sin laid at your feet.

 

[PeterJens]

EG do you recognise yourself in this description. Now think about this a little.

I demonstrated the fruits of behaviour not an individual. If you do the things I describe then you are guilty of the problem of judgementalism and condemnation. If you think this behaviour described is ok, then you need to defend how bible believing christians are doomed to hell in your view.

I do not stand over any christian like this. All I will do is point to Jesus and say we are saved through faith in the cross.
I think in all your thinking this has got left behind and you see evil everywhere. It is not me who will judge you but the Lord.

 

[Grandpa]

To Believers, yes.

To an extent, I agree with you. But not fully.

I like how you guys have brought this all the way back to the garden. It makes me think of how many things are surmised and assumed about what happened there. But so little is explicitly explained.


Everyone has their ideas.

 

[PeterJens]

Being told you are wrong or you have sinned brings out the worse in you..

Now if you knew me you would know I want discussion and looking at issues from as many points of view as possible.
I am not interested in my position, I just want to get to a place where I know what I stand on and why. If I conclude I am wrong I will say so, it is no problem to me.

One thing I know now is faith brings righteousness, I do not hold Jesus's righteousness in imputed to me for my righteousness, I believe in free will and that sex is not part of original sin. I could go on, but my views have changed. I am not really armenian or calvanist but a mixture. Now come to me with a good argument and I will adjust again. This is called being intellectually honest. Maybe you are not aware of this idea. The problem with this goal is I will provoke a response, which people take the wrong way, rather than generating discussion it can generate insult and offence. Sometimes this is the way to get people thinking and not just assuming stuff. But you are not like this, obviously.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To an extent, I agree with you. But not fully.

I like how you guys have brought this all the way back to the garden. It makes me think of how many things are surmised and assumed about what happened there. But so little is explicitly explained.


Everyone has their ideas.

What a day it will be when we are in heaven and our eyes are opened to those things. I know I can't wait!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now if you knew me you would know I want discussion and looking at issues from as many points of view as possible.
I am not interested in my position, I just want to get to a place where I know what I stand on and why. If I conclude I am wrong I will say so, it is no problem to me.

One thing I know now is faith brings righteousness, I do not hold Jesus's righteousness in imputed to me for my righteousness, I believe in free will and that sex is not part of original sin. I could go on, but my views have changed. I am not really armenian or calvanist but a mixture. Now come to me with a good argument and I will adjust again. This is called being intellectually honest. Maybe you are not aware of this idea. The problem with this goal is I will provoke a response, which people take the wrong way, rather than generating discussion it can generate insult and offence. Sometimes this is the way to get people thinking and not just assuming stuff. But you are not like this, obviously.

wrong thread..

 

[FreeNChrist]

To an extent, I agree with you. But not fully.

I like how you guys have brought this all the way back to the garden. It makes me think of how many things are surmised and assumed about what happened there. But so little is explicitly explained.


Everyone has their ideas.

Look at this verse, "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins" Col. 2:13

He is talking to people who are physically alive and telling them they were dead. What kind of dead does that have to be?

And he is telling them they were dead but now have been made alive. What kind of life does that have to be?

 

[Grandpa]

Look at this verse, "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins" Col. 2:13

He is talking to people who are physically alive and telling them they were dead. What kind of dead does that have to be?

And he is telling them they were dead but now have been made alive. What kind of life does that have to be?

I have absolutely no argument whatsoever that we were all spiritually dead.

That all, born after Adam, were born into this death.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


I'm looking for the biblical principle that says a spiritual death is required to bring people into Spiritual Life and I can't find it, nor has anyone provided it.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I have absolutely no argument whatsoever that we were all spiritually dead.

That all, born after Adam, were born into this death.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


I'm looking for the biblical principle that says a spiritual death is required to bring people into Spiritual Life and I can't find it, nor has anyone provided it.

It's in that same passage. "With Christ". We are spiritually dead and we are made spiritually alive with Christ.

God made us alive with Christ. That can only mean that when Christ was raised from the dead to life, He was not only raised back to physical life, but to spiritual life as well...meaning He had to have been spiritually dead. Otherwise saying we are made spiritually alive with Christ would be nonsensical.

 

[PeterJens]

Look at this verse, "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins" Col. 2:13
He is talking to people who are physically alive and telling them they were dead. What kind of dead does that have to be?
And he is telling them they were dead but now have been made alive. What kind of life does that have to be?

"Dead in your sins" is an interesting phrase because it is unique to Paul.
People are born out of communion with God. They have no fellowship, inside it is empty, an emotional missing ingredient.
In Christ the believer is alive, full of life, connected, enthusiastic, encouraged, moving forward, in communion with God.

Is this dormant spirituality brought to life, or new spirituality created in the believer?
I think scripture is unclear. Paul for me is emphasising the emptiness and contradiction in the soul of sin, which is death to who we are, the in Christ, the birth of life and rejoicing.

It is hard to see more than this, as we have nothing which suggests otherwise.
Moses, Elijah both had fellowship with God, but did they have a new birth experience, or is this only new covenant related?
Does it matter?

If this is the foundation for the idea Christ died spiritually on the cross, it is very weak, or even non-existant.

 

[pottersclay]

In genesis the death of Abel should be considered, he brought that which was excepted by the Lord.
When he was killed his blood cried out too the Lord.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have absolutely no argument whatsoever that we were all spiritually dead.

That all, born after Adam, were born into this death.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


I'm looking for the biblical principle that says a spiritual death is required to bring people into Spiritual Life and I can't find it, nor has anyone provided it.

if spiritual death is the penalty imposed on all mankind because of sin.

Then I would think the only way to redeem mankind is for the redeemer to suffer the same fate.

I know this does not help.. But like you said, it may be when we get to heaven before we figure all this stuff out.