Faith is our righteousness - Christ is our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins

[PeterJens]

This does not prove one can lose salvation.

a DOG is always a dog. He will return to his own vomit.

You justification for dismissing Peters whole argument is very weak.
Peter says these people knew faith, walked in it and walked away. It would have been better if they had known nothing.

You are just literally ignoring his obvious warning that though they are brothers, and know the reality of God, they have chosen something different.

Now you can say Peter was wrong, but it is plain what he believed. It is only to accept this would undermine your OSAS belief which for you is unbelief, so ofcourse you deny the obvious.

 

[FreeNChrist]

lol.. Please No KJV only here..

Or CLV's......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You justification for dismissing Peters whole argument is very weak.
Peter says these people knew faith, walked in it and walked away. It would have been better if they had known nothing.

Your ignoring all of scripture.

God says a person adopted into his family are new creatures We are no longer dogs, who do things like dogs. we are made new in Christ,,

You ignore the fact that God changes people. Because you want to save yourself. and like the phairsee, does not want anyone to tell you how much of a sinner and unworthy you are..

My God changes people. they no longer go back to their vomit, because they KNOW what their vomit is.. A dog eats it because he does not know any better...

You are just literally ignoring his obvious warning that though they are brothers, and know the reality of God, they have chosen something different.

No, they were not my brothers, they were still dogs. meaning they had not yet been changed, If they had been changed, they never owuld have left.. They left as ohn said, to PROVE THEY WERE NEVER OF US

Maybe they were your brothers? WHo had never been created anew in Christ, but were still dogs trying to earn their way into the masters house?

Now you can say Peter was wrong, but it is plain what he believed. It is only to accept this would undermine your OSAS belief which for you is unbelief, so ofcourse you deny the obvious.

No, Peter was not wrong, You are wrong in what you think he actually said, All over the bible warnings are given to many people to make sure they are of the real faith and not just playing the game or being wanna be's, but that they were actually true faith born again believers.

I have had people I have had to give peters warning too. Because they acted like they were still dogs. and not new creatures.. It is a warning that yes, is still effective today.

 

[PeterJens]

You will notice people use words like "Why bother to find the truth"

The reason is the bible has a context, and concepts, ideas need to tie together.
EG was a reformed believer for many years of his life, a legalist by his definition. He thought is was true.
He now follows a form of hyper-grace, and says his past beliefs are wrong. Now this is a problem. Same bible, same verses, different interpretation, but similar absolute certainty he is right.

So what brought conviction was interpretation, assumptions and beliefs. These colour the words, and put emphasis in one area and not another. The problem is we actually build models in our heads and they are what we actually believe, which we fit information into. We change these models depending on information that comes in. The more certain we are the more fixed the ideas become even though they might be wrong.

The only way we can be certain of different ideas or concepts is testing them, and understanding where they come from.
So the answer is always bother, and find resolution and why there is resolution or where you compromise is.

Nothing in the christian faith is simple as CC demonstrates, and the problem of free will, is people will go off at tangents on the simplest of excuses.

 

[FreeNChrist]

You will notice people use words like "Why bother to find the truth"

The reason is the bible has a context, and concepts, ideas need to tie together.
EG was a reformed believer for many years of his life, a legalist by his definition. He thought is was true.
He now follows a form of hyper-grace, and says his past beliefs are wrong. Now this is a problem. Same bible, same verses, different interpretation, but similar absolute certainty he is right.

So what brought conviction was interpretation, assumptions and beliefs. These colour the words, and put emphasis in one area and not another. The problem is we actually build models in our heads and they are what we actually believe, which we fit information into. We change these models depending on information that comes in. The more certain we are the more fixed the ideas become even though they might be wrong.

The only way we can be certain of different ideas or concepts is testing them, and understanding where they come from.
So the answer is always bother, and find resolution and why there is resolution or where you compromise is.

Nothing in the christian faith is simple as CC demonstrates, and the problem of free will, is people will go off at tangents on the simplest of excuses.

2 Corinthians 11:3

"But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You will notice people use words like "Why bother to find the truth"

The reason is the bible has a context, and concepts, ideas need to tie together.
EG was a reformed believer for many years of his life, a legalist by his definition. He thought is was true.
He now follows a form of hyper-grace, and says his past beliefs are wrong. Now this is a problem. Same bible, same verses, different interpretation, but similar absolute certainty he is right.

This guy still does not know what I believe. Nor does he have any right to judge. You can not judge what you do not know.

I grew up baptist.. Some of my pastors believed like Peter jens here. Some of them did not.. It was all over th eplace. My Dad (one of the most self righteous legalistic people I have ever met)

So what brought conviction was interpretation, assumptions and beliefs. These colour the words, and put emphasis in one area and not another. The problem is we actually build models in our heads and they are what we actually believe, which we fit information into. We change these models depending on information that comes in. The more certain we are the more fixed the ideas become even though they might be wrong.

The problem was I took what men who were in power over me (pastors and teachers) and thought, they were from God, so they could never lead me astray. I thought the KJV was the only bibe, and if you were not bapttist, you were headed to hell..

What I learned was to stop listening to men, And open my eyes, and study, actually study with a clean slate, open mind.. and I would see truth..

some poeple (like peter here) still listen to men, they have programed responses.. And still think they know what others believe, because they are still listening to men.

The only way we can be certain of different ideas or concepts is testing them, and understanding where they come from.
So the answer is always bother, and find resolution and why there is resolution or where you compromise is.

Yep.Like you do.

Paul said we are saved by grace through faith, And those who are saved are CREATED a new creature, for good works..

Paul said we used to be sinners, but we were washed, justified and sanctified in the name of Jesus

Paul said we used to act like the world. But we were made new, and we have a new nature, which can not act like our old nature.

But you think a dog can be saved, and return to his vomit..

Nothing in the christian faith is simple as CC demonstrates, and the problem of free will, is people will go off at tangents on the simplest of excuses.

you are proof of this.

You wash down the law. think you can make it , and earn it,, And so everyone who says they are so powerless up and against the law. and earning Gods love are evil.

You need to look inside before you can judge outside..

 

[PeterJens]

Your ignoring all of scripture.

EG your idea is simply brain-washing. Peter used an analogy of a dog and a pig saying spiritually when we come to faith, that is our position, so why would we return to it after being transformed. You are taking it that the illustration is saying they never believed in the first place, even though Peter is saying they did.

Now saying I am ignoring all of scripture is just your stupid blanket statement. I am sure before you conversion to hyper-grace you would have used the same language, because it is just a dismissive term with no weight.

Now I am reading a passage about what it says, not using my model to invent that it cannot mean the obvious because that would mean I am wrong. It is your reading of scripture, and if you can do this to a plain passage like this, I know where you come from, and it is your own imagination. It cuts no ice with me, because you deny Peter and his meaning.

The bible does not warn about real faith, it just says these people had faith, God spoke to them. Scripture warns those in the Kingdom about false teachers, messiahs etc who misslead. Very little is written about restoring someone to faith, because I think the idea is mainly once the opportunity is rejected, that is normally it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG your idea is simply brain-washing. Peter used an analogy of a dog and a pig saying spiritually when we come to faith, that is our position, so why would we return to it after being transformed. You are taking it that the illustration is saying they never believed in the first place, even though Peter is saying they did.

So peter took an example. which goes AGAINST what it woud be in reality.

And that is how we are to understand him?

Thats like saying God will renew the earth, But he did not mean he will renew the earth..

You have to take all of scripture. You sayng peter means this does not mean a thing.. IT IS YOUR OPINION>

Now saying I am ignoring all of scripture is just your stupid blanket statement. I am sure before you conversion to hyper-grace you would have used the same language, because it is just a dismissive term with no weight.

Hyper grace? Never heard of it. And if your going to sit there and continue to bear false witness against me, All you do is prove you do not have a leg to stand on, and like all legalists, you have to attack others because you have no argument.

Come to me when you understand grace, and maybe we can talk..

Now I am reading a passage about what it says, not using my model to invent that it cannot mean the obvious because that would mean I am wrong. It is your reading of scripture, and if you can do this to a plain passage like this, I know where you come from, and it is your own imagination. It cuts no ice with me, because you deny Peter and his meaning.

So am I.

Many people come to church, they hear the gospel. They even participate and are blessed by God by association of being with Gods people.. Just like a gentile in Israel would be blessed by being with the jews.. even if he was not a walking Jew.. as long as he did not live like a gentile.

If that person does not come to Christ completely. He will fail, Like a dog, he will return to his vomit, Because that is what he is, a dog. You can teach a dog a new trick, but he will always return to what he is, A DOG!!.

will it be worse for these people? You bet, Imagine having the truth in your hands, Walking in it for months, years, maybe even decades, but never actually trusting in that truth, never experiencing the truth of that truth,, And then one day, thinking you are saved because you played church, find out you were lost all along..

You netter believe it will be worse for them.

There is nothing made up about my belief, it makes total sense, It lines up with the rest of scripture. and it lines up with the examples peter used..

Yours does not.. You can say it does all you want, it does not make it fact.

The bible does not warn about real faith, it just says these people had faith, God spoke to them. Scripture warns those in the Kingdom about false teachers, messiahs etc who misslead. Very little is written about restoring someone to faith, because I think the idea is mainly once the opportunity is rejected, that is normally it.

The bible does not have to warn about real faith, because those who have real faith would never fall away, or reject Christ, they have experienced his true love, they know were they came from, and will never walk away.

The bible exposes a false faith.. and has been since day one..

Your faith my friend, is false.

1. You do not have faith God has perfected those who believe forever
2. You do not have faith God has made dogs new creatures
3. You do not have faith God will change a life so drastically they would never fall to where they were before salvation
4. You do not have faith God will keep his promise.

You can have your wishy washy faith

I will keep my humble faith powered By God.. for it will never fail

 

[Grace777x70]

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

Doing righteous deeds because Christ has made us righteous is what 1 John chapter 3 is talking about. This shows the difference between the devil and those that belong to Christ. John was describing a believer and an unbeliever.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness comes to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now! This "righteousness " will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man..you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells..

 

[Grace777x70]

The scriptures I gave above will drive D.I.Y.self-effort righteous/holiness types crazy...it's the nature of the beast.

 

[PeterJens]

You wash down the law. think you can make it , and earn it,, And so everyone who says they are so powerless up and against the law. and earning Gods love are evil.
You need to look inside before you can judge outside..

EG I got to laugh. You do not read what I write or you are lying about it. Why do you want to slander me?
Where in your mind do you think if I say I am saved by faith alone that I believe I earn my salvation?
It is simply lying and not reading what I am writing. Now you can ofcourse in your own mind say "He is a legalist, so though he says that he is actually justifying himself" but that is in your head and nothing to do with me.

Now you have serious problem if you call another believer a liar, and doing something other than what they are telling you.
That is called slander which is a sin. I know you have no problems saying people are lying when they state what has happened to them, but this reflects on you own world and not the honesty and integrity of others.

 

[PeterJens]

So peter took an example. which goes AGAINST what it woud be in reality.

Ok my friend. Let me take your analogy to its other end. Let us say gentiles are dogs and pigs.
What are they when they are saved?

If they are saved dogs and pigs, then Peters example is about ones spiritual position before God and the people of Israel, and sick or wallowing in mud is about dwelling in sin.

So Peter is saying a non-Jew comes to faith and realises they are a sinner and are saved. They then fall away and go back to sin, the vomit, which is just disgusting and unworthy. End of story.

 

[Grace777x70]

Compliments of mailmandan on 2Peter 2:20

Please show me the words "forfeited being God's child" or "no longer a child of God." Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires.

They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356

that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution.

Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside

 

[PeterJens]

You can have your wishy washy faith
I will keep my humble faith powered By God.. for it will never fail

I have to say, you are right, there has always been a divide between us. It is of no surprise because all the language I would use you already have had to 30+ years which you now have thrown out for your legalism and grace split.

We have established it rests on calvanism, and goes back to Augustine. And yes in your view I am a legalist.
The problem is we have a different view of faith.

I would say the area I was weak on is how a christian while learning to walk would avoid the legalist dilemma of breaking fellowship and remaking it, on identified and non-identified sin. This is not the experience of christians. But if faith itself is the covering, the direction of the walk, whether well or badly, makes the difference, that fills the gap.

Now this is close to a grace view, but you have faith being unimportant once the walk has begun.
It appears though you have added a rider, the true believer would never fall away or loose faith.

Our area of difference though is on what is a righteous walk. Paul is even not so clear on this. It appears all the apostles agree it is about the relationship, the dwelling on Gods word, His Spirit, walking in love that makes it clear to the individual.

A woman wondered if her work was pleasing to God. The pastor just said everyday bring your work to the Lord when you are working and He will lay it on your heart where you should be. She soon got the answer she needed.

Our interaction is not helpful, because you do not discuss points just dismiss them, which is not a discussion or even close to interaction, but then I know you now very well, so I suppose I am the mug to believe you have another side to who you are.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG I got to laugh. You do not read what I write or you are lying about it. Why do you want to slander me?

Who is slandering you?

You teach salvation can be lost. it must be earned by our obedience.

The law teaches you must be perfect. or you are under a curse.

So who is slandering who?

Where in your mind do you think if I say I am saved by faith alone that I believe I earn my salvation?

it is not the words "faith alone" it is what you says is required after faith to maintain salvation.

Paul had to warn the galation church and call them fools because they taught salvation by faith (the spirit) but said salvation must be perfected in the flesh (works.)

Thats what you teach.

so was he not talking to you also?

It is simply lying and not reading what I am writing. Now you can ofcourse in your own mind say "He is a legalist, so though he says that he is actually justifying himself" but that is in your head and nothing to do with me.

So you believe in eternal security That all who have true faith in Christ are secure in christ, and can never fall away from salvation, Because it is of faith alone right??

thats what I thought.

You do not practice what you preach

Now you have serious problem if you call another believer a liar, and doing something other than what they are telling you.

1. You do that to me every time you speak. so whats your point? Don;t you realize you have three fingers pointing at you every time you try to point at others?
2. The bible calls you a liar. I am just stating what the bible says.

That is called slander which is a sin. I know you have no problems saying people are lying when they state what has happened to them, but this reflects on you own world and not the honesty and integrity of others.

Stop talking about others so called lack of integrity, when in doing so, you destroy your own..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok my friend. Let me take your analogy to its other end. Let us say gentiles are dogs and pigs.
What are they when they are saved?

If they are saved dogs and pigs, then Peters example is about ones spiritual position before God and the people of Israel, and sick or wallowing in mud is about dwelling in sin.

So Peter is saying a non-Jew comes to faith and realises they are a sinner and are saved. They then fall away and go back to sin, the vomit, which is just disgusting and unworthy. End of story.

BAD BAD BAD EXAMPLE..Try sticking to all of scripture. a gentile who gets saved, is no longer a jew or gentile. they are children of God.. (for there is neither jew or gentile, slave or free etc etc)



A gentile fell back to sin because they were still a gentile. and were not made a new creature, which is neither jew or gentile..

You do not want to get rid of your self righteousness do you? WHy? What is so hard about humility? Does that offend you so much?

 

[John146]

You can never know for sure you have eternal life until you die.

I have to say, you are right, there has always been a divide between us. It is of no surprise because all the language I would use you already have had to 30+ years which you now have thrown out for your legalism and grace split.

We have established it rests on calvanism, and goes back to Augustine. And yes in your view I am a legalist.
The problem is we have a different view of faith.

I would say the area I was weak on is how a christian while learning to walk would avoid the legalist dilemma of breaking fellowship and remaking it, on identified and non-identified sin. This is not the experience of christians. But if faith itself is the covering, the direction of the walk, whether well or badly, makes the difference, that fills the gap.

Now this is close to a grace view, but you have faith being unimportant once the walk has begun.
It appears though you have added a rider, the true believer would never fall away or loose faith.

Our area of difference though is on what is a righteous walk. Paul is even not so clear on this. It appears all the apostles agree it is about the relationship, the dwelling on Gods word, His Spirit, walking in love that makes it clear to the individual.

A woman wondered if her work was pleasing to God. The pastor just said everyday bring your work to the Lord when you are working and He will lay it on your heart where you should be. She soon got the answer she needed.

Our interaction is not helpful, because you do not discuss points just dismiss them, which is not a discussion or even close to interaction, but then I know you now very well, so I suppose I am the mug to believe you have another side to who you are.

 

[jandian]

This does not prove one can lose salvation.

It serves as a warning to those who are just spectators in any church, whoo has not made a profession of faith yet. to stop playing games and make a decision, for it will be worse for you if you do not. when you go to hell. then for someone who did not even know God, or outright just refused to believe anythign about God and it will

a DOG is always a dog. He will return to his own vomit.

You can escape the pollutions of this world by spectating in church?

When people take a position that they will believe what they want, its a really scary thing.

 

[PeterJens]

They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep.

Dogs were a description of the samaritans.
Pigs were people who were more interested in their own condition and not how they can find truth or reality.

Everytime sheep are mentioned, as in "My sheep know my voice" they were never anything else other than sheep.
Sheep that are lost. So transformation in this cross parable does not work.

There are sheep and goats. But would you say goats going back to their vomit or wallowing in the mud? No it would not fit.
So I think Peter is not following a simple pictorial narrative.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have to say, you are right, there has always been a divide between us. It is of no surprise because all the language I would use you already have had to 30+ years which you now have thrown out for your legalism and grace split.

We have established it rests on calvanism, and goes back to Augustine. And yes in your view I am a legalist

See there you go. You have not established anything, but you own false pretense of what others believe.

you just proved you listen to men
you just proved you never listen to a word anyone says.

I AM NOT CALVANIST, I AM NOT AUGUSTINIAN..


but you are so churched, and so sure everyone who disagrees with you must be a calvinist or augustinian.. you can not hear a word they say.. You just slandered me again,, I guess that is alright.. You have no sense of morality, no wonder it is so easy for you to lie about others. .

The problem is we have a different view of faith.

your right, we do. And not only a different view of what it is, but who it is in..

I would say the area I was weak on is how a christian while learning to walk would avoid the legalist dilemma of breaking fellowship and remaking it, on identified and non-identified sin. This is not the experience of christians. But if faith itself is the covering, the direction of the walk, whether well or badly, makes the difference, that fills the gap.

Now this is close to a grace view, but you have faith being unimportant once the walk has begun.
It appears though you have added a rider, the true believer would never fall away or loose faith.

Faith is an assurance,,

how can you have an assurance if you doubt?

If you doubt God can keep you. you have no faith in God. your faith is in self. and that is not faith.

Our area of difference though is on what is a righteous walk.

Yeah your right, Your view would more resemble the pharisee. Mine resembles the tax collector. who gets on his knees because he knows he is not worthy.

The pharisee watered down Gods law. Thats wht you and those like you do.. Because you could never live or stand firm if you understood what Gods law required. you would have to bury it all on the cross. and be totally reliant on your faiht in Christ.

Like paul was..

Paul is even not so clear on this. It appears all the apostles agree it is about the relationship, the dwelling on Gods word, His Spirit, walking in love that makes it clear to the individual.

A woman wondered if her work was pleasing to God. The pastor just said everyday bring your work to the Lord when you are working and He will lay it on your heart where you should be. She soon got the answer she needed.

Our interaction is not helpful, because you do not discuss points just dismiss them, which is not a discussion or even close to interaction, but then I know you now very well, so I suppose I am the mug to believe you have another side to who you are.

You do not make points, You shove what you think, and if people disagree with you,

You do not even listen to what people say, you say they believe things they do not, or teach things they do not.

If they do not agree with you, they are judged, condemned, slandered, or attacked.

Thats why we can not have a fruitful discussion..