Fallacies of the Present Day Church

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Dec 14, 2009
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Then we realise the BENEFIT of Godliness.

'For I can do anything, but not all is beneficial'.

'You were called to be free'.

It's a strange irony, but free will allows us to see what we truly desire throughout this life. And in the end, every human asks the question 'There must be more than just living for myself'.

Like the moment a father's child is born. He is reborn with the child. 'Wow, I never knew life could be so beautiful'.

My cause is not to do 'what gets me to heaven', it's to do what's right by God, to make the lives of those around me as beautiful as I can.
 
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psychomom

Guest


This is why it is so important to understand what sin actually is.
No, I must disagree.
The Standard is Christ, and HIS righteousness,
and there is but ONE way for me to both obtain and attain it,
and that is by His grace, through the faith He placed in my heart to believe in Him.

I can strive to be righteous in my flesh, or I can receive His righteousness through faith alone. Anything less misses the mark....which is Jesus.
Wholly and completely Christlike. Nothing less can possibly satisfy the Father.
Only He is good, and only He can make me good.

Respectfully,
ellie

 
Jun 24, 2010
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No, I must disagree.
The Standard is Christ, and HIS righteousness,
and there is but ONE way for me to both obtain and attain it,
and that is by His grace, through the faith He placed in my heart to believe in Him.

I can strive to be righteous in my flesh, or I can receive His righteousness through faith alone. Anything less misses the mark....which is Jesus.
Wholly and completely Christlike. Nothing less can possibly satisfy the Father.
Only He is good, and only He can make me good.

Respectfully,
ellie
When I read and hear things spoken in this kind of light, it's like I can sense my heart being humbled and bowed low, even though outwardly I may not be their just yet in my experience, but I know it's going to take the grace of God and much patience to get me where God wants me to be in my walk of faith in Him. So no matter what capacity or place we are at in Christ, no matter how much we may have failed and even rebelled against the cross that works death in us (like Peter and the other disciples did when they all forsook Christ - Mt 26:56), the Lord abides faithful and will not forsake us. For those who continually like to beat us over the head with (Heb 10:26), I would like to present to them a verse from the same book that we can trust as a promise from God...

Heb 13:5
5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (In the greek it is a triple citation that says...'I will never, no never, no never...)

What was God's response to the children of Israel in their rebellion...

Neh 9:16-23
16 But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments,
17 And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.
18 Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said, This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations;
19 Yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness: the pillar of the cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go.
20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.
21 Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness, so that they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.
22Moreover ...thou gavest them kingdoms and nations, and didst divide them into corners: so they possessed the land of Sihon, and the land of the king of Heshbon, and the land of Og king of Bashan.
23 Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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No, I must disagree.
The Standard is Christ, and HIS righteousness,
and there is but ONE way for me to both obtain and attain it,
and that is by His grace, through the faith He placed in my heart to believe in Him.

I can strive to be righteous in my flesh, or I can receive His righteousness through faith alone. Anything less misses the mark....which is Jesus.
Wholly and completely Christlike. Nothing less can possibly satisfy the Father.
Only He is good, and only He can make me good.

Respectfully,
ellie

In what we try to do, even 'trying to have faith', 'trying to believe', all is a vain effort if we do it for our salvation. It is ALL 'trying', and sometimes trying to achieve what Christ already did.

The matter is: Jesus died because we cannot be sinless without his death. He has given us that salvation.

It is like the father who has ten sons, and all ten of the sons are wayward in some form or another, but he loves them all.

And the most wayward of them have the hardest lives because they are lost, they make bad decisions and the consequences hurt: this is the law that exists and always will, that action has consequence on earth. The better of them have easier lives and the father is pleased by them. But he longs for the most wayward sons to return to him. Even though they are lost, he knows them better than they know themselves. He is older, and wiser, and knows they can be changed.

He has an eleventh son who pleases him to no end. Who does everything the father asks. Who is perfect, humble, who realises that if even he were to die, he can have love in that action. He can love his father, and his brother. He has knowledge alike to the fathers and the father lets him in on everything because he has the mindset to comprehend it as the father comprehends it.

Jesus took what was not his sin, and made it his sin. He took what was part of us, and made it part of him. Then he died and was sacrificed to God holding all the sins of man. The sin died with him.

And he rose as he was before, perfect. For what was not his, went unto death and stayed in death. But what was his (sinlessness) stayed and he lives forever.

Man will be the same. We shall die once, and there will be a resurrection. A change, as Paul calls it. Whereby death no longer has any power.

It is then a matter of doing what is beneficial for my brother.

Jesus is my brother. God is my father. And I should love each and every person as though they were also my brothers and sisters.

A child of God is a child of God. Some are just more wayward than others.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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Nice picture. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with reality.

Operational Science (the applied science that we use every day) in no way negates the faith of the Bible.

Operational Science is limited in that it only deals with the physical universe and its observable/detectable properties. The understanding of such things such as logic and morality and even the concept of epistemology exist outside function of Operational Science.

One cannot use Operational Science to prove the existence of God or even the concept of logic. Yet we all have the reasoning capacity to know for sure that such things are real.

People like Richard Dawkin's, whose declared mission in life is to ascertain that a belief in God is superstitious nonsense, professing themselves wise are actually fools who completely ignore the elephant standing in the room with them while they keep busy constructing strawmen which they can then tear down. It's really just another facet of the art of self deception at work.

So again, nice pic but next time perhaps try and expound something more substantial than such nonsense.
 
Nov 26, 2012
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Nice picture. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with reality.

Operational Science (the applied science that we use every day) in no way negates the faith of the Bible.

Operational Science is limited in that it only deals with the physical universe and its observable/detectable properties. The understanding of such things such as logic and morality and even the concept of epistemology exist outside function of Operational Science.

One cannot use Operational Science to prove the existence of God or even the concept of logic. Yet we all have the reasoning capacity to know for sure that such things are real.

People like Richard Dawkin's, whose declared mission in life is to ascertain that a belief in God is superstitious nonsense, professing themselves wise are actually fools who completely ignore the elephant standing in the room with them while they keep busy constructing strawmen which they can then tear down. It's really just another facet of the art of self deception at work.

So again, nice pic but next time perhaps try and expound something more substantial than such nonsense.
Is there any evidence for the supernatural?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Thats a prety bad explanation there.

Faith is based on evidence. It is science that ignores evidence. whihc is proven by the fact most theories are only based between 10 and 30 % so called proof. Since when is scientific fact based on less than 50 % evidence? yet most of the so called scientific knowledge comes from these percentages. Now who is the ones who are lacking?
 
Nov 26, 2011
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Is there any evidence for the supernatural?
Yes. YOU!

Of course you can ignore such evidence and foolishly claim that natural processes can produce self consciousness or the witness of God within you.

God clearly bears witness within you that He is real. By yielding to that witness you may not know much about God but that is where diligently seeking Him out comes in. God is very close to all people but God will not force Himself upon you in violation of your own free and independent will.

God has granted you the freedom to suppress the internal witness that is your conscience if you so desire. You conscience bears witness to the light of God and it is via this light that you know the difference between right and wrong.

The first step in finding God is in yielding to the internal witness God has given all men. In other words believe that He is and then diligently seek Him out. Do that and God will open your eyes.

Most people will not do that but will rather live a self indulgent life going from moment to moment seeking the next thrill. Eventually the clock runs out and they die in their vanity for they sought solace in the things of this world as opposed to that which is eternal.

The choice is up to you.
 
Nov 26, 2012
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Yes. YOU!

Of course you can ignore such evidence and foolishly claim that natural processes can produce self consciousness or the witness of God within you.

God clearly bears witness within you that He is real. By yielding to that witness you may not know much about God but that is where diligently seeking Him out comes in. God is very close to all people but God will not force Himself upon you in violation of your own free and independent will.

God has granted you the freedom to suppress the internal witness that is your conscience if you so desire. You conscience bears witness to the light of God and it is via this light that you know the difference between right and wrong.

The first step in finding God is in yielding to the internal witness God has given all men. In other words believe that He is and then diligently seek Him out. Do that and God will open your eyes.

Most people will not do that but will rather live a self indulgent life going from moment to moment seeking the next thrill. Eventually the clock runs out and they die in their vanity for they sought solace in the things of this world as opposed to that which is eternal.

The choice is up to you.
Which God? If I ask you "Does God answer prayer"? You would say yes.
If I were to ask a Muslim does your God answer prayer they would say yes.
Who or what is answering the Muslim's prayer?
 
Jun 24, 2010
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Is there any evidence for the supernatural?
What the believer focuses upon is not the supernatural in terms of signs and wonders or even miracles, but they focus on the things which are not seen which are eternal ...

2Cor 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Any evidence that we seek from a living God is through faith, because faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen (Heb 11:1). Trusting God is faith operating according to the word and God's promises. We must trust the promises, because the promises are all yea and amen and reveal who God is...

Jn 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

When we stop trusting in the finished work of Christ, sin will take over and we will find that repentance has no power to overcome sin. The power of the cross is God's supernatural provision that is able to free a man from the bondage of sin, not repentance or penance. If we are crucified to sin through the cross how can we live in sin. If we do sin, God forbid, we confess our sin to God and rely upon the cross to empower us through death to live in resurrection life that has overcome the power of both sin and death associated with the grave.

Today so many of us get involved with doing things that are morally right and benefit others that we forget the promises of God. We go about our business and try to live a peaceful life without trusting in God's exceedingly great and precious promises. We even get caught up in doctrine that has no hope, no faith and no promise and we never get to know the living God who acts toward His people according to the promises. We never learn to leap out and believe God for an adventure of faith that is trusting in what God has promised. This is how complacency and lethargy gets in and begins to take over our capacity to believe in a supernatural God that never slumbers or sleeps.
 
Nov 26, 2012
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Thats a prety bad explanation there.

Faith is based on evidence. It is science that ignores evidence. whihc is proven by the fact most theories are only based between 10 and 30 % so called proof. Since when is scientific fact based on less than 50 % evidence? yet most of the so called scientific knowledge comes from these percentages. Now who is the ones who are lacking?
The definition of faith is "belief without evidence." If there
were actual evidence there would be no question. It shocks
me to hear you say that science ignores evidence. Please
provide a source for your claims.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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The definition of faith is "belief without evidence."
ya. and atheists have a lot of 'faith' in the Galtons' and Darwins' (uber-RELIGIOUS-eugenicists) 'theories':rolleyes:



haha.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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The definition of faith is "belief without evidence." If there
were actual evidence there would be no question. It shocks
me to hear you say that science ignores evidence. Please
provide a source for your claims.

Faith is not belief without evidence. That may be your definition but it mot certainly not the Bible's definition.

The Bible defines faith as...

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So unless you truly believe that knowledge about something can only be ascertained through empirical means (ie. observation and experience) then your definition of faith flies in the face of reason, as well as being in complete contradiction to what the Bible teaches.

Do you truly believe that knowledge is only ascertained through empiricism?
That is what it is beginning to look like and thus I hope you can be clear on the matter.
 
Nov 26, 2012
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The definition of faith I mentioned is the dictionary version.
I'm not closed off to the chance that a devine revelation can happen.
It's just that I can't take someones word for it.

Again, from which deity would such a revelation come?
Allah, Yahweh, Krishna, Buddha, etc?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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The definition of faith I mentioned is the dictionary version.
I'm not closed off to the chance that a devine revelation can happen.:)
It's just that I can't take someones word for it.
start here in sincerity, and don't give up - Divine Revelation will follow:

John 1
The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word [Logos], and the Word [Logos] was with God, and the Word [Logos] was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life,a and the life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11He came to his own,b and his own peoplec did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15(John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.


λογος noun - nominative singular masculine
logos log'-os: something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ) -- account, cause, communication, concerning, doctrine, fame, have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.


Logos
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Gospel of John identifies the Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos),[7] and further identifies Jesus as the incarnate Logos.
 
U

unclefester

Guest
The definition of faith I mentioned is the dictionary version.
I'm not closed off to the chance that a devine revelation can happen.
It's just that I can't take someones word for it.

Again, from which deity would such a revelation come?
Allah, Yahweh, Krishna, Buddha, etc?
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


If it is truly God's truth you desire, ask Him. And be prepared for His answer.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The definition of faith is "belief without evidence." If there
were actual evidence there would be no question. It shocks
me to hear you say that science ignores evidence. Please
provide a source for your claims.
lol. If there was NO evidence, there could be no faith. You do not even understand what true faith is. Why don't ya get out of yourself, and try to realize with faith ise and why it is more then mere belief?

is it not funny how science continually proves the existence of a creator? Why is it that scientists continue to ignore this reality? is it not that they are going on FAITH that they are right and all us Christians are wrong, and even though you can't prove it, you still believe there is no God?

It is funny how you slam faith, when it is you are following faith yourself!


for you see. There is more PROOF I am right, then there is lack of proof. And there is more proof you are in error, then lack of proof. So who is it that is really going on faith?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


If it is truly God's truth you desire, ask Him. And be prepared for His answer.
absolutely fes.
repentance ahead.....Lord willing:)



Luke 18
9 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 “The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 ‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 “I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”