The choice we are given is to either believe or not. The natural man cannot accept the things that come from God. Faith is gifted to our spiritual selves through an act of grace that lends itself to faith which we then bolster through aligning ourselves more and more with the will of God despite the sinful desires of the flesh, which we have hopefully come to recognize as ploys from the enemy of life (Satan), and paths that lead to death. Armed with that knowledge, like a former smoker who knows that one cigarette will lead to addiction and death, with the help of the Holy Spirit of God we become better and better equipped to deal with the desires of the flesh that are at odds with the desire of the Spirit. The corruptible will not put on the incorruptible until after the resurrection and judgement of all. Then sin will be no more, and even death shall be banished. Come Lord Jesus!!!
Free Will thread, Hiz and Blain
- Thread starter Stunnedbygrace
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In order to see how and why God did things, we have to see the context.
God is a relational God. He created man to have a relationship with. He wants to restore mankind to a relational staus, by making us alive in him.
You cannot have a relationship with a robot. A robot does what you tell it to. it is programmed that way, It can not say no. So you can not love a robot. because the robot has no need of you. and can not return that love back.
So to have a relationship. You have to be able to receive love and be blessed. or reject love and not be blessed.
Yes. That means God created mankind with the ability to say, No God. I do not want you. I chose to be my own God.. Because the only other option God had was to make us all robots with no free thinking ability..
Since God gave us the ability to say No God. He also had to give us the ability to say yes God (even after we rejected him) but saying yes would not be enough. He had to make amends first. He had to justify the ungodly. Redeem the lost. Save the dead. and atone the guilty. He did this by the cross.
Just like he gave Adam and eve the ability to say No God.. He gave all in Adam the ability to say Yes God, (with the help of the HS, who convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment, so the world has no excuse) He never removed our free will. That is what he wanted to begin with, To serve us. and we receive his love..
God is a relational God. He created man to have a relationship with. He wants to restore mankind to a relational staus, by making us alive in him.
You cannot have a relationship with a robot. A robot does what you tell it to. it is programmed that way, It can not say no. So you can not love a robot. because the robot has no need of you. and can not return that love back.
So to have a relationship. You have to be able to receive love and be blessed. or reject love and not be blessed.
Yes. That means God created mankind with the ability to say, No God. I do not want you. I chose to be my own God.. Because the only other option God had was to make us all robots with no free thinking ability..
Since God gave us the ability to say No God. He also had to give us the ability to say yes God (even after we rejected him) but saying yes would not be enough. He had to make amends first. He had to justify the ungodly. Redeem the lost. Save the dead. and atone the guilty. He did this by the cross.
Just like he gave Adam and eve the ability to say No God.. He gave all in Adam the ability to say Yes God, (with the help of the HS, who convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgment, so the world has no excuse) He never removed our free will. That is what he wanted to begin with, To serve us. and we receive his love..
A little encouragement:
Psalm 143:10, "Teach me to do Your pleasure, For You are my Strength. Let Your beautiful Spirit lead me In the land of straightness."
Romans 8:14-15, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of Yah, these are sons of Yah. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
Psalm 143:10, "Teach me to do Your pleasure, For You are my Strength. Let Your beautiful Spirit lead me In the land of straightness."
Romans 8:14-15, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of Yah, these are sons of Yah. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, YHWH Shammah, coming down from YHWH out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father.
Ezekiyl 48:35, "The distance around the city will be eighteen thousand measures; and the name of the city from that day will be: YHWH SHAMMAH (YHWH Is There)."
Revelation 21:4-8 And YHWH will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away. And He Who sat upon the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me: Write, for these words are true and faithful.And He said to me: It is done! I am Aleph and Tau, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things; and I will be his Father, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and worshipers of false gods, and all liars, will have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone--which is the second death."
Ezekiyl 48:35, "The distance around the city will be eighteen thousand measures; and the name of the city from that day will be: YHWH SHAMMAH (YHWH Is There)."
Revelation 21:4-8 And YHWH will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away. And He Who sat upon the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me: Write, for these words are true and faithful.And He said to me: It is done! I am Aleph and Tau, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things; and I will be his Father, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and worshipers of false gods, and all liars, will have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone--which is the second death."
I may have come to a conclusion...I don't think it does me any harm to think that I had no part in my being saved by my own free will - to think that I had no choice BUT to sin before I met Him, and to think I was incapable of choosing to not sin because it was just my nature from birth to do so. And I don't think it does me any harm to think He chose me rather than me choosing Him. If it causes me to trust Him more and trust myself less, I don't think I am harmed by this way I see it. To think I was born blind and could not choose to see or believe...doesn't appear to me to bring any harm to myself. So it's okay. 
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I may have come to a conclusion...I don't think it does me any harm to think that I had no part in my being saved by my own free will - to think that I had no choice BUT to sin before I met Him, and to think I was incapable of choosing to not sin because it was just my nature from birth to do so. And I don't think it does me any harm to think He chose me rather than me choosing Him. If it causes me to trust Him more and trust myself less, I don't think I am harmed by this way I see it. To think I was born blind and could not choose to see or believe...doesn't appear to me to bring any harm to myself. So it's okay.
Just my view
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I may have come to a conclusion...I don't think it does me any harm to think that I had no part in my being saved by my own free will - to think that I had no choice BUT to sin before I met Him, and to think I was incapable of choosing to not sin because it was just my nature from birth to do so. And I don't think it does me any harm to think He chose me rather than me choosing Him. If it causes me to trust Him more and trust myself less, I don't think I am harmed by this way I see it. To think I was born blind and could not choose to see or believe...doesn't appear to me to bring any harm to myself. So it's okay.
They believe in total depravity and irresistible grace.
I think Christians are split down the middle when it comes to this topic. I don't think either position is harmful if the outcome is that we rely on God and seek his grace to enable us to overcome sin. Personally, I can't get past my own consciousness of my free will. I know where EG is coming from because I have had similar thoughts. I don't know if this is something we fully understand in this life. There have been great saints that held to both schools of thought
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I can think of 2 scriptures that speak of God working in us to do His will. How that comes about is open to debate I suppose.
Here He gives us both the desire and the capability to do what pleases Him.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Here is Hebrews God is equipping us to do His will - working in us....and it is all through Jesus Christ. That's why we need to constantly be hearing messages about Christ and what He has done. Christ is central to all things. He is the first and the last in all things.
Hebrews 13:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Here He gives us both the desire and the capability to do what pleases Him.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Here is Hebrews God is equipping us to do His will - working in us....and it is all through Jesus Christ. That's why we need to constantly be hearing messages about Christ and what He has done. Christ is central to all things. He is the first and the last in all things.
Hebrews 13:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
I may have come to a conclusion...I don't think it does me any harm to think that I had no part in my being saved by my own free will - to think that I had no choice BUT to sin before I met Him, and to think I was incapable of choosing to not sin because it was just my nature from birth to do so. And I don't think it does me any harm to think He chose me rather than me choosing Him. If it causes me to trust Him more and trust myself less, I don't think I am harmed by this way I see it. To think I was born blind and could not choose to see or believe...doesn't appear to me to bring any harm to myself. So it's okay.
This is not to say that God did nothing to make my surrender possible, for He revealed Himself to me in a number of ways over quite a period of time as I sought Truth in my life. God knows that as sinners we do not necessarily seek Him, but if we are diligently seeking truth, then Jesus Christ is going to show up as the embodiment of Truth, because He is the ground of our being. We live and move in Him, and all things are held together by Him In other words, I agree that the important thing is that you believe Jesus Christ to be Who the Holy Spirit of God reveals Him to be to you. Your understanding may in fact be instrumental in helping others from the unique view that you hold, just as it would for anybody else who endeavors in the fields of God to bring in the harvest.
Haha, I spoke too quickly. Maybe you are a Calvinist after all. You just stated in your own words 2 of the 5 points
They believe in total depravity and irresistible grace.
I think Christians are split down the middle when it comes to this topic. I don't think either position is harmful if the outcome is that we rely on God and seek his grace to enable us to overcome sin. Personally, I can't get past my own consciousness of my free will. I know where EG is coming from because I have had similar thoughts. I don't know if this is something we fully understand in this life. There have been great saints that held to both schools of thought
They believe in total depravity and irresistible grace.
I think Christians are split down the middle when it comes to this topic. I don't think either position is harmful if the outcome is that we rely on God and seek his grace to enable us to overcome sin. Personally, I can't get past my own consciousness of my free will. I know where EG is coming from because I have had similar thoughts. I don't know if this is something we fully understand in this life. There have been great saints that held to both schools of thought
Haha, I spoke too quickly. Maybe you are a Calvinist after all. You just stated in your own words 2 of the 5 points
They believe in total depravity and irresistible grace.
I think Christians are split down the middle when it comes to this topic. I don't think either position is harmful if the outcome is that we rely on God and seek his grace to enable us to overcome sin. Personally, I can't get past my own consciousness of my free will. I know where EG is coming from because I have had similar thoughts. I don't know if this is something we fully understand in this life. There have been great saints that held to both schools of thought
They believe in total depravity and irresistible grace.
I think Christians are split down the middle when it comes to this topic. I don't think either position is harmful if the outcome is that we rely on God and seek his grace to enable us to overcome sin. Personally, I can't get past my own consciousness of my free will. I know where EG is coming from because I have had similar thoughts. I don't know if this is something we fully understand in this life. There have been great saints that held to both schools of thought
If I had the free will to stop or to control my murdering, why did I struggle to stop it for so long without much success, because I always eventually failed again, and only when I just said, I give up, I can't be good, and if I am to be good, You will have to do it, THEN I began to see great victories and my bitter resentments and murders stopped? No matter how hard I tried by my will to be good, it just didn't happen...
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And to me it gives God a bad name to say that I had something good in me already that helped me to be saved. Go figure...
But to say I can chose to trust God is not the same as saying there is something good in me.. In fact. For me to repent and have faith in God, I have to Admit, there is no good in me. so it would be the exact opposite.
I do not see the resemblance between God not giving a person free will. and that meaning we have some good in us..
I guess it's just in how you view it. I see that it can be viewed two different ways, and yet both people can be walking in the Spirit. It bothers me to say that there was something I was born with, called free will, that enabled me to salvation, because if it enabled me to salvation, then there was something good in me before my birth in Spirit. So from what I gather, that makes me calinistic.
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I guess it's just in how you view it. I see that it can be viewed two different ways, and yet both people can be walking in the Spirit. It bothers me to say that there was something I was born with, called free will, that enabled me to salvation, because if it enabled me to salvation, then there was something good in me before my birth in Spirit. So from what I gather, that makes me calinistic.
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I guess it's just in how you view it. I see that it can be viewed two different ways, and yet both people can be walking in the Spirit. It bothers me to say that there was something I was born with, called free will, that enabled me to salvation, because if it enabled me to salvation, then there was something good in me before my birth in Spirit. So from what I gather, that makes me calinistic.
When you need to admit there is NOTHING good in you to repent and trust God.
it seems the opposite. To me, someone who thinks there can be good in me that would never freely chose to repent and have faith in God.