FROM THE DESK OF......

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Sep 4, 2012
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You can't go wrong with the fruit of the Spirit. Make it the end all of the Christian experience and you can't go wrong. That is true spirituality. Not the gifts, not signs and wonders........ but walking in the fruit of the Spirit. That is the sum total of the Christian life. That is the compass setting that keeps the believer from being buffeted about by every wind of doctrine and driven off course. Keep that as the goal and you will not fall or be led astray.
Knowing what the fruit of the spirit is is doctrine. It all has to come back to scripture.
 
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Sure, why not.

I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

Avoid churches that think doctrinal accuracy is the measure that shows you are saved and know Christ. Walking as he walked is what it means to know him.
Which means keeping his commandments, which is doctrine

And by this we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3
 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
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There is nothing wrong with doctrine. Those that have a problem with doctrine do so because they don't know true doctrine.
Since I've been on CC I notice that there's some that hate doctrine, for they will twist & wrestle with it till those teaching it will be exhausted & quit.

Deuteronomy 32:2
[SUP]2 [/SUP] My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Proverbs 4:2
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.
Isaiah 28:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isaiah 29:24
[SUP]24 [/SUP] They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
Matthew 7:28
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Matthew 22:33 (
[SUP]33 [/SUP] And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
Mark 1:22
[SUP]22 [/SUP] And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 4:2
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
Mark 11:18
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
Mark 12:38
[SUP]38 [/SUP] And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,
John 7:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 7:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Acts 2:42
[SUP]42 [/SUP] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Acts 5:28
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Acts 17:19
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
Romans 6:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 16:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
1 Corinthians 14:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
Ephesians 4:14
[SUP]14 [/SUP] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
1 Timothy 1:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP] As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1 Timothy 1:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1 Timothy 4:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
1 Timothy 4:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1 Timothy 4:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1 Timothy 5:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1 Timothy 6:1
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
1 Timothy 6:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP] If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
2 Timothy 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2 Timothy 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 4:2
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Titus 1:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Titus 2:1
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Titus 2:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Titus 2:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
2 John 1:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
 
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Ralph-

Guest
Knowing what the fruit of the spirit is is doctrine.
And walking in it is not.

That's the difference I'm pointing out.

Don't attend a church where simply knowing doctrine is the end all of being a Christian. Attend a church where doctrine is a means to the ends, not the ends itself.

It seems us Christians think 'believing' means having and believing the correct doctrine.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
There is nothing wrong with doctrine.
Correct. Nothing wrong with doctrine.

Making it the measure of a being a spiritual Christian who is pleasing to God is where the problem lies. Actual living out the doctrines of the faith is what we exist to do. Doctrine is a tool to be used to achieve a greater goal than just knowing something.
 
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And walking in it is not.

That's the difference I'm pointing out.

Don't attend a church where simply knowing doctrine is the end all of being a Christian. Attend a church where doctrine is a means to the ends, not the ends itself.

It seems us Christians think 'believing' means having and believing the correct doctrine.
Sure I understand the difference. I lived it for many years. I eschewed doctrine for the experience, the life, the revelations. But I can tell you when you have everything stripped away through sufferings to the point that you get turned inside out, crushed, and don't know which end is up or down, you find doctrine there waiting for you. Spirit and doctrine go together like hand and glove.
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
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For years our family had the doctrines down pat AND BY GOD WE KNEW IT!!!! (picture man in 3 piece suit fist hitting pulpit)

We can have alll the doctrine in the Bible., know all the different Bible interpretations and know Greek and Hebrew and totally miss Jesus.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
So for someone like me who has gone to many churches and just immediately knew I needed to leave,(ex: you need to wear a dress if you want to come back, all of the miracles did not literally happen, if you aren't healed it's your own fault for such little faith) and who has not been able to find one, or find a meeting in someones home, what is your advice for how to become acquainted with the Holy Spirit.
Read your Bible in private without interruption at least 10 minutes a day, up to 20 or 30 minutes. More if you have the time and and a schedule open to do that. Pick up reading where you left off. Don't jump around. Then share your questions and observations with others in forums. If that's all you got, then that's all you got.



I mean, I guess the good news is Jesus said when you receive the Holy Spirit He will teach you and you won't have need of any man to teach you and He will guide you into all truth, which is a relief to someone who hasn't yet been able to find a church....so would your advice be to just keep trusting that He said the truth in that and WILL lead me to truth and teach me?
I guess so.

It's sad that it is like this in the church today. But it seems that God is not doing anything to turn it around so we have to accept it and trust him with the rest.

I've met so many people who consider 'church' to be a boring exercise in self control, where they do not get edified, and only do it because they're supposed to do it. These same people light up like little fire flies when you get them in an open group where members share and fellowship around the word under the leadership of an anointed and gifted spiritual leader.

Add heartfelt prayer and praise and worship to that (after you get built up by discussing the Word) and you have church the way God intended. It doesn't lend itself too well to the traditional and accepted business model of how to do 'church'. So the leadership doesn't pattern it's services according to this open, but controlled, style of sharing and spiritual fellowship.
 
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For years our family had the doctrines down pat AND BY GOD WE KNEW IT!!!! (picture man in 3 piece suit fist hitting pulpit)

We can have alll the doctrine in the Bible., know all the different Bible interpretations and know Greek and Hebrew and totally miss Jesus.
That's 100% true.
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
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This will be the maybe 5th time I've re posted this email from a friend this week.


We can make the scriptures "God" When I say that - it is really our "interpretation" of the scriptures that we make to be a "god" in our own mind. Without the Holy Spirit's revelation to show us Christ - we are at the mercy of our own religious un-renewed minds.


The Bible is not a roadmap or instruction manual in a"completed" sense. The Bible is NOT God - God breathed - inspired - YES!

But the Bible is a book about Jesus. The Bible is not an end to itself - the Bible speaks of Jesus. He is the true reality that the scriptures speak off ( This is why there is so much controversy on the Sabbath Day issue )


Jesus said "...you search the scriptures because you think ( human reasoning ) "in them" you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." John 5:39-40


Reading the Bible without wanting to know and see Jesus and the Father for whom they truly are is like reading someone else's love letters. You might learn a few things about love but this will not move you toward the one who wrote the letters.


Some people get confused because they think the Bible has all the answers - it does not. It does however point us to the One who "is"the answer! James never said - "If anyone lacks wisdom you should study the Bible - He said - you should ask God Himself. James 1:5 ( God may use a verse in the scriptures or a word from another teacher...etc )



God surely speaks to us through the Bible but if the Bible doesn't lead you to the revelation of the One called Wisdom - you will be no wiser than a Pharisee. If we look for Jesus - the Holy Spirit will reveal Him in the Old Testament.


A mis-guided ( albeit maybe a well intentioned ) teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to tell you what you should do, but a grace/Christ oriented teacher/preacher will use the scriptures to show you what Jesus has done and who you are in Him now because we are in Christ and He is in us. The Holy Spirit in us teaches/guides/reveals to us Jesus and the Father's true character and finished work.



Read the scriptures with the view to "see" Jesus. In Him we see the heart and will of the Father being manifested on this earth. The best translation of the Bible is Jesus!



He is the "living word" within the written word and He is flawless and free of translation errors. All of man's translations have biases and inaccuracies. Sometimes translators give their "doctrinal beliefs" when translating a verse or word.



The scriptures teach us that we are not living by the teaching of the Bible per se - we are living by the life of Christ in us. The source of our life is not the Bible - the source of our life is the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father.



In the Old Testament when it refers to "the word of God" and the life it brings - it was in reality talking about "the living word of God" ( Jesus Himself ) - of which the scriptures are a "shadow" of the real substance - Jesus. ( another reason why strict Sabbath Keepers cannot see Christ as our true Sabbath rest now in the New Covenant - they are stuck in the shadow and think that it is the real )



The Bible shows us the ways Jesus Christ wants to express His life through us to a hurt and dying world. In Him we live, move and have our being. The Bible leads us to the source of life = Jesus Himself.



The Bible is NOT God but we can make our own interpretations of the Bible to be our "god" in our own un-renewed minds. The Holy Spirit has come in us to show us the things "of Christ" and reveal them to us - His beloved children.


Unquote

I agree with this 100%. The reason people get the Bible all mixed up is that Jesus is not being seen or revealed.
 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
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Correct. Nothing wrong with doctrine.

Making it the measure of a being a spiritual Christian who is pleasing to God is where the problem lies. Actual living out the doctrines of the faith is what we exist to do. Doctrine is a tool to be used to achieve a greater goal than just knowing something.
Perhaps you're not clarifying that those of whom you say "know" doctrine do so from an arrogant, pharisaical viewpoint. In other words, knowing doctrine to elevate themselves.
Therefore, it's proper to expose the abuser of doctrine instead of marginalizing the importance of true doctrine.
It's easy to confuse those reading this to think it's a doctrine problem instead of a personal one.
 
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Doctrine isn't the goal. Walking in the spirit is. Doctrine let's us know we're listening to the right spirit.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
I can tell you when you have everything stripped away through sufferings to the point that you get turned inside out, crushed, and don't know which end is up or down, you find doctrine there waiting for you.
If you mean 'truth', and experiencing it, then I agree.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Doctrine isn't the goal. Walking in the spirit is. Doctrine let's us know we're listening to the right spirit.
I look at it the other way around. The Spirit let's us know we're listening to the right doctrine.

That is what John is talking about when he says believers have an anointing to know the truth and do not need to be told what is the truth and what is not. They can discern for themselves through the Holy Spirit that what they hear from a teacher is the truth or not. They do not have to rely on someone telling them it's the truth.


"20Although the Lord has given you bread of privation and water of oppression, He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher. 21Your ears will hear a word behind you, “This is the way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right or to the left. "-Isaiah 30:20-21
 
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Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
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True doctrine is the goal. The promise of the Spirit in the OT is "God would put His word in our hearts, and we would know them"
Something like that.

Without true doctrine, we wouldn't know Jesus, for the Gospel is true doctrine.

If this wasn't true, there wouldn't be such a spiritual war going on in the church by false prophets and teachers.
 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
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I look at it the other way around. The Spirit let's us know we're listening to the right doctrine.
It's both. The Holy Spirit leads us to Jesus through true doctrine of the Gospel, and true doctrine teaches us about the ministry and work of the Holy Spirit.

You can't have one without the other.

This is why many on CC post dozens of scriptures while not being able to know the true doctrine contained within them. Since they can't spiritually discern them, they will never know true doctrine.

This is why when I see folks improperly handle many scriptures, I don't bother to seriously read their posts, for flesh can't be trusted or qualified to teach truth.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
True doctrine is the goal. The promise of the Spirit in the OT is "God would put His word in our hearts, and we would know them"
Something like that.

Without true doctrine, we wouldn't know Jesus, for the Gospel is true doctrine.

If this wasn't true, there wouldn't be such a spiritual war going on in the church by false prophets and teachers.
What true doctrine is leading you to, that is the goal.

Doctrine is a tool that leads us to being Christ like in character. That is the end all of the Christian faith-to be like Jesus in character (peaceable, kind, loving, patient, long suffering, etc). Keep that as the goal of your faith in this life and you will not be buffeted by the ever changing winds of doctrine blowing in the church.


"And He gave some as apostles, and some asprophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine"-Ephesians 2:11-12


Keep the focus on growing up into Christ-likeness according to the fruit of the Spirit, and you will not be swayed back and forth by the ever changing winds of doctrines in the church. If your focus is on knowing correct doctrine you're going to follow various winds of doctrines blowing in the church and you will be deceived into thinking that what you believe, instead of how you behave, is what pleases God.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Perhaps you're not clarifying that those of whom you say "know" doctrine do so from an arrogant, pharisaical viewpoint. In other words, knowing doctrine to elevate themselves.
Therefore, it's proper to expose the abuser of doctrine instead of marginalizing the importance of true doctrine.
It's easy to confuse those reading this to think it's a doctrine problem instead of a personal one.
This is what I'm talking about:


‘Come now and hear what the message is which comes forth from the LORD.’ 31“They come to you as people come, and sit before you as My people and hear your words, but they do not do them, for they do the lustful desires expressed by their mouth, and their heart goes after their gain. 32“Behold, you are to them like a sensual song by one who has a beautiful voice and plays well on an instrument; for they hear your words but they do not practice them."-Ezekiel 33:30-32


This describes our churches very well. We find a false sense of fulfillment and satisfaction from learning about the truths of the faith instead of deriving that fulfillment and sense of satisfaction from actually putting the truths of the faith into practice.

Jesus said the house that will stand the coming storm of judgment is built on the firm foundation of acting on the truth, not simply knowing the truth. That's what the OP is about. The faith that saves is the faith that acts. Even Paul, the author of the 'faith apart from works' doctrine, said that:


"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love (that's what means something)."-Galatians 5:6


Faith does justify, not works of the law. But this faith that justifies apart from the works of the law keeps the law "thou shalt love they neighbor as thyself"-Leviticus 19:18. If it doesn't then that is not the faith that justifies apart from the works of the law.
 
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I look at it the other way around. The Spirit let's us know we're listening to the right doctrine.

That is what John is talking about when he says believers have an anointing to know the truth and do not need to be told what is the truth and what is not. They can discern for themselves through the Holy Spirit that what they hear from a teacher is the truth or not. They do not have to rely on someone telling them it's the truth.
John was telling his disciples that they didn't need the gnostic teachers in their midst teaching them that they needed a secret knowledge to be saved because they already had been taught the correct saving doctrine of Christ and had the anointing of the spirit of truth to walk in it. That whole epistle is a refutation of the gnostic heresy that was threatening to destroy the church with insidious false doctrines. The only way to know a false doctrine is to have the right one. The spirit alone doesn't cut it.