GOD IS SOVEREIGN AND HUMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE!

[seed_time_harvest]

I have her on ignore, but can read quoted posts.

She thinks we think God ignores those who call upon Him?!?!?! That's why you can't have civil talks with them. They accuse us of things we don't believe. God answers ALL who call upon Him in faith. He rejects none who seek Him. There's a clear disconnect in their theology they can't see is there. They think ppl walk around seeking Him but the bible says in Psalm 14 and Romans 3 that NONE understand, NONE seek Him. 1 Cor. 2:14 says the man w/o the Spirit will not receive the things of the Spirit, but rather, considers it foolishness, neither can they understand the things of the Spirit because they are SPIRITUALLY discerned.

Outside the drawing of the Spirit, NONE would seek Him. But they conflate God's drawing with trying really, really, REALLY, hard, but if they refuse that really hard attempt, God can't save them. God's drawing is an inward power, impel, lead, to literally drag off. Not dragging us kicking and screaming, but effectually drawing ppl.

God could raise the physically dead w/o their assistance, but the spiritually dead? Naw!! He needs their cooperation. They can have that 'god'. God quickens whoever He wills, and doesn't have to first gain their approval.

This comes down to a very high view of man and a horribly low view of God. Romans 9:20 and Romans 1:22 at work here. Sad. Really sad.

Would you agree that scripture that you use to buttress your position should harmonize your position even If you use the scripture that I use to buttress my position?I mean shouldn't scripture harmonize with scripture since all scripture Is GOD breathed.

If they don't harmonize then someone Is In error,do you agree with that?



Definition of buttress: something that supports or strengthens

 

[SovereignGrace]

Would you agree that scripture that you use to buttress your position should harmonize your position even If you use the scripture that I use to buttress my position?I mean shouldn't scripture harmonize with scripture since all scripture Is GOD breathed.

If they don't harmonize then someone Is In error,do you agree with that?



Definition of buttress: something that supports or strengthens

Yes. My does buttress my position. Yours? Not so much.

 

[Depleted]

Just bringing this back to our exchange in proper order.

John 3:16
King James Version(KJV)

16.)For GOD SO loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.
+++

The whosoever there does not mean only certain people are able to receive Eternal Life,because If that were true,would that be just?

Is receiving eternal life just?

Yes because we are so thankful for what HE did for the world at the cross.

So, okay. I was tried and convicted of some terrible crimes, and given the death sentence. After that, I so gratefully thank the judge for letting me off, and he is kind enough to give me eternal life?

Really? Really really? You think he is just?

Any chance you're a judge? Because if I'm ever charged with criminal activity, I so very much want to stand before you in a court. I promise I will be extremely thankful too. Extremely!!! Promise!



Now, want to try this again? Is eternal life just?

 

[Depleted]

A little strong on the judgmental element don't you think? Or is that what a contrite heat looks like in Philly? City of brotherly love.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hey. Frankly, I'm not the one who is making claims of contrite heart, nor do I believe contrite hearts save.

My question, however was contrite.

 

[ForthAngel]

Would you agree that scripture that you use to buttress your position should harmonize your position even If you use the scripture that I use to buttress my position?I mean shouldn't scripture harmonize with scripture since all scripture Is GOD breathed.

If they don't harmonize then someone Is In error,do you agree with that?



Definition of buttress: something that supports or strengthens

Free will causes scripture to contradict, election causes it to harmonize.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Would you agree that scripture that you use to buttress your position should harmonize your position even If you use the scripture that I use to buttress my position?I mean shouldn't scripture harmonize with scripture since all scripture Is GOD breathed.

If they don't harmonize then someone Is In error,do you agree with that?



Definition of buttress: something that supports or strengthens

Now, you guys throw John 3:16 at us like we don't agree with it. Yet there's also "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."[John 3:36] Now, if God loves the world, as in meaning everybody whoever lived w/o exception, how does He love those whose wrath of His remains upon them? How does God love everybody w/o exception when "The arrogant cannot stand in your presence. You hate all who do wrong.[Psalm 5:5] How does God love everybody w/o exception when "There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community."[Proverbs 6:16-19]

God hates sinners, not loves them less, but hates them. Your theology has God loving those He hates. How does your theology buttress anything????????

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Matthew 18:12-14
King James Version(KJV)

12.)How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13.)And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14.)Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

 

[ForthAngel]

Matthew 18:12-14
King James Version(KJV)

12.)How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13.)And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14.)Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Who are the sheep?

John 10
I Am the Good Shepherd
10 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.


7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

--

The sheep are his own and will be saved. So then who are his own that he lays his life down for and will be saved? Jesus already told us earlier on:

--

John 6
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”


41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.


--

Is your claim that the entire world is Jesus' sheep? If so, why are not all saved? Was Jesus telling the truth when he said ALL that the Father gives him WILL come to him? Your only choices are universalism or Jesus was lying. No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. Those that are drawn will come to him. Those to come to him he will never cast out. Those he will never cast out he will raise on the last day. Those that he raises on the last day will have eternal life.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Just bringing this back to our exchange in proper order.



So, okay. I was tried and convicted of some terrible crimes, and given the death sentence. After that, I so gratefully thank the judge for letting me off, and he is kind enough to give me eternal life?

Really? Really really? You think he is just?

Any chance you're a judge? Because if I'm ever charged with criminal activity, I so very much want to stand before you in a court. I promise I will be extremely thankful too. Extremely!!! Promise!



Now, want to try this again? Is eternal life just?

GOD Is almighty,would you agree?
I don't know If Eternal Life Itself Is just but I will trust GOD that Eternal Life Is just because GOD Is Eternal.

You may be looking at the outward appearances,GOD Llooks at the heart.
+++
Hebrews 12:23
King James Version(KJV)

23.)To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
+++
2 Corinthians 5:15-17
King James Version(KJV)

15.)And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16.)Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17.)Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Free will causes scripture to contradict, election causes it to harmonize.

Where does the bible say that?

 

[Rockrz]

Where does the bible say that?

Yeah, that be outta 1st Book of Thin Air

 

[ForthAngel]

Where does the bible say that?

Doesn't say it anywhere. It's common sense. You say man plays a part in his own salvation, scripture says contrary. So you pull passages out that say all or whosoever and pit them against clear passages that say man plays no part. Hence, free-will causes a contradiction in scripture, not that there is a contradiction in scripture, but it seems to cause one. But it can be seen clearly and without contradiction when election is harmonized with all the alls and whosoevers. Otherwise, it seems to contradict itself.

 

[Rockrz]

You say man plays a part in his own salvation, scripture says contrary

Man does have a part to play... it's man's responsibility to accept and walk in what Jesus went to the Cross to provide.

There's things all over the New Testament that reflects this... but it's designed so people wearing Calvin's religious reading glasses can't understand it cause Calvin be blind as a bat!... and fat!

 

[ForthAngel]

Man does have a part to play... it's man's responsibility to accept and walk in what Jesus went to the Cross to provide.

That's contrary to scripture. Romans 9:16

There's things all over the New Testament that reflects this... but it's designed so people wearing Calvin's religious reading glasses can't understand it cause Calvin be blind as a bat!... and fat!

Nope. Man plays no part in salvation. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Matthew 18:12-14
King James Version(KJV)

12.)How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13.)And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14.)Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Not everyone in the world w/o exception is His sheep.

These 'little ones' that He will not allow to die lost are His ppl, the elect, the sheep.+

So, how does that buttress your theology again?

 

[ForthAngel]

Man does have a part to play... it's man's responsibility to accept and walk in what Jesus went to the Cross to provide.

There's things all over the New Testament that reflects this... but it's designed so people wearing Calvin's religious reading glasses can't understand it cause Calvin be blind as a bat!... and fat!

And for future reference, if you don't start quoting me fully so it links to my full post, I'm gonna just put you on ignore. You did this on another thread and quoted others in the same reply that made it look like I was saying what they commented. Thanks.

 

[Rockrz]

That's contrary to scripture. Romans 9:16

Nope. Man plays no part in salvation. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

You don't know what you are talking about cause of those Calvin reading glasses....

So, this scripture is a lie and needs to be removed from the Bible...???

Romans 10:9,10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Well, looky there... it clearly states that man must confess with his mouth and believe in his heart.

So, looks like man does have a part to play in that man must receive and act on what God has done.

Like I said earlier, God's Word is designed so people wearing Calvin's religious reading glasses can't understand it cause Calvin be blind as a bat!... and fat... and stubborn as a cat!

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[SovereignGrace]

GOD Is almighty,would you agree?
I don't know If Eternal Life Itself Is just but I will trust GOD that Eternal Life Is just because GOD Is Eternal.

You may be looking at the outward appearances,GOD Llooks at the heart.
+++
Hebrews 12:23
King James Version(KJV)

23.)To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
+++
2 Corinthians 5:15-17
King James Version(KJV)

15.)And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16.)Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17.)Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

More eisegesis I see...

For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.[SUP] [/SUP]So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.[SUP] [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.[1 Cor. 5:14-21]

Christ died for all that those who live should live for Him and not themselves. That's the context. Christ died for those who should no longer live for themselves. He also raised again for them. Read down and see that it was us who received the message of reconciliation by the Spirit of reconciliation through that message, "Be reconciled to God." Now, in verse 19, it said "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself." Now, seeing that those who are being reconciled are not having their sins counted against themselves, that shows that 'world' does not mean 'everybody who ever lived', but all in a subset. So, those who 'Christ died for all' is referring to His ppl, His sheep, His elect.

 

[Rockrz]

Romans 6:1-8
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

 

[ForthAngel]

You don't know what you are talking about cause of those Calvin reading glasses....

So, this scripture is a lie and needs to be removed from the Bible...

Romans 10:9,10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Well, looky there... it clearly states that man must confess with his mouth and believe in his heart.

So, looks like man does have a part to play in tat man must receive and act on what God has done.

Like I said earlier, God's Word is designed so people wearing Calvin's religious reading glasses can't understand it cause Calvin be blind as a bat!... and fat... and stubborn as a cat!

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I agree with Romans 10:9-10. The elect will do this. The non-elect will reject Christ and never make a confession or believe unto righteousness or salvation

None will do this unless born again of the Spirit because the message of the cross is foolishness to the carnal mind. The work is God in the person, not because of something the person has done to merit God's' grace.

And you quoted next a verse I would use in defense of the my view. To go further, the carnal mind won't please God or submit to his law, nor can it. Someone must be born again to receive the Gospel, to believe, have faith, and to confess.

8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

The verses you quoted in no way support free-will or man's will being sovereign and God's being in subjection to man's. I know you are the king of out of context verses here, but try and read the context. Read the chapter before Romans 10.