GOD IS SOVEREIGN AND HUMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE!

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D

Depleted

Guest
I thoroughly admit Reformed Theology can easily lead people into arrogance and haughtiness.

So, here's a question for those who aren't Reformed: What's your excuse? Have you not notice the ones talking about contrite hearts haven't practice that contriteness of heart?

Or, in Philly Talk -- Yo, Babes! You're outdoing the arrogant in your arrogance! What's up with that? Can't blame us on that.
 
Dec 3, 2016
1,674
25
0
I thoroughly admit Reformed Theology can easily lead people into arrogance and haughtiness.

So, here's a question for those who aren't Reformed: What's your excuse?
What's our excuse for not being in arrogance and haughtiness???
That's a rather odd question...
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
Utter nonsense and more false assertions on your part. It doesn't shipwreck faith, unless their faith is in themselves and the false gospel of free will decisional regeneration.

And it doesn't eliminate repentance, you're merely making excuses and other things up as you go along. Repentance is part and parcel top the Gospel and your insinuation is frankly lame and unwarranted.

Let's look at Paul "shipwrecking peoples faith":

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began - Titus 1:1

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. - 2 Timothy 2:8-10

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. - Ephesians 1:4-6

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you - 1 Thessalonians 1:4

For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 1:26-31

It is pronounced often enough in the Scriptures. Perhaps if their "faith is shipwrecked" as you falsely assert, then their faith is not genuine, and their faith is in what they have done and not in what God hath wrought.


Now, do you claim Romans 8:28-39 for yourself? Please answer. Thank you.
So...

No one wants to twist these passages or add to what's there? Maybe undermine Paul's authority or something? God chose us because we first chose Him? Anybody? Gotta be some way to impose man's sovereign will into these texts. What about these:

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.


John 6
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”


41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life



John 15
14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
--

I'm struggling to find anywhere that the will of man has anything to do with anything in regards to salvation.

--

Romans 9
9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

And the accusation by those who disagree with election:


14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
 
P

psalm6819

Guest
Scoffers?





Yeah. How dare God choose to save ppl. What audacity. What nerve. He has to gain their permission first. :rolleyes:
No, how dare anyone say that the grace of God at the cost of Jesus is only available to a "chosen" few.

Don't you think the blood of Jesus is enough for all who seek Him?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Your repeated actions say you don't know "contrite heart." Matter of fact, you think you're above that.
BTW, contrite hearts would answer an earnest question asked.
A little strong on the judgmental element don't you think? Or is that what a contrite heat looks like in Philly? City of brotherly love.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
I think I know where you are going but I'll bite.

They did not choose the right way because men loved darkness.
Correct. They love darkness better than they do Light.

Now, the unregenerate don't love God. Oh, they say they love God, but won't open and read a bible that tells them about Him, won't visit a local church that preaches about Him, won't have continual fellowship with His ppl, &c.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
So...

No one wants to twist these passages or add to what's there? Maybe undermine Paul's authority or something? God chose us because we first chose Him? Anybody? Gotta be some way to impose man's sovereign will into these texts. What about these:

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.


John 6
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”


41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life



John 15
14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
--

I'm struggling to find anywhere that the will of man has anything to do with anything in regards to salvation.

--

Romans 9
9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

And the accusation by those who disagree with election:


14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
They don't believe it's all God. They say they believe it, but when they start "teaching" on here they deny what they've stated. Refromed? "Calvinists?" Doctrines of Grace believers? Salvation is 100% God. Monergism. Soli Deo Gloria. And, we not only state it, we teach it, and back it up with Scripture.

And I'm still waiting for anyone to that hates election, denies election, tries to get around election, to tell me if Romans 8:28-19 applies to them.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
They don't believe it's all God. They say they believe it, but when they start "teaching" on here they deny what they've stated. Refromed? "Calvinists?" Doctrines of Grace believers? Salvation is 100% God. Monergism. Soli Deo Gloria. And, we not only state it, we teach it, and back it up with Scripture.

And I'm still waiting for anyone to that hates election, denies election, tries to get around election, to tell me if Romans 8:28-19 applies to them.
Make that Romans 8:28-39.

While I'm on this, you really have some serious growing to do Spiritually and in knowledge if you honestly think the phrase "whosoever will" negates God's Sovereign election. Election is milk. It isn't meat. And people are gagging on it here.

Those using the phrase in that manner are only pitting Scripture against itself, going for a contradiction as their basis for belief.
 
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
Your repeated actions say you don't know "contrite heart." Matter of fact, you think you're above that.
I have her on ignore, but can read quoted posts.

She thinks we think God ignores those who call upon Him?!?!?! That's why you can't have civil talks with them. They accuse us of things we don't believe. God answers ALL who call upon Him in faith. He rejects none who seek Him. There's a clear disconnect in their theology they can't see is there. They think ppl walk around seeking Him but the bible says in Psalm 14 and Romans 3 that NONE understand, NONE seek Him. 1 Cor. 2:14 says the man w/o the Spirit will not receive the things of the Spirit, but rather, considers it foolishness, neither can they understand the things of the Spirit because they are SPIRITUALLY discerned.

Outside the drawing of the Spirit, NONE would seek Him. But they conflate God's drawing with trying really, really, REALLY, hard, but if they refuse that really hard attempt, God can't save them. God's drawing is an inward power, impel, lead, to literally drag off. Not dragging us kicking and screaming, but effectually drawing ppl.

God could raise the physically dead w/o their assistance, but the spiritually dead? Naw!! He needs their cooperation. They can have that 'god'. God quickens whoever He wills, and doesn't have to first gain their approval.

This comes down to a very high view of man and a horribly low view of God. Romans 9:20 and Romans 1:22 at work here. Sad. Really sad.
 
Last edited:

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
They don't believe it's all God. They say they believe it, but when they start "teaching" on here they deny what they've stated. Refromed? "Calvinists?" Doctrines of Grace believers? Salvation is 100% God. Monergism. Soli Deo Gloria. And, we not only state it, we teach it, and back it up with Scripture.

And I'm still waiting for anyone to that hates election, denies election, tries to get around election, to tell me if Romans 8:28-19 applies to them.
So just what was your salvation experience like? Did you just one day arrive at the conclusion that you were elect and therefore saved?

From the scriptures how would you tell someone how to be saved? What I driving for here is are you saved because you are elect or are you elect because you are saved. Your proof texts clearly teach the latter not the former.

I'm not saying this to imply that you are not saved but to bring to remembrance that you did not have so great a knowledge of theology when you received Christ as a knowledge of your sinfulness and Christ's righteousness.

When I heard the word of God and was convicted of my sin I at last saw the need to be saved. Christ presented Himself as my Savior and bid me come to Him. I was changed in an instant and was made a new creation in Christ Jesus an heir of eternal salvation. I do not reckon any of that to election but to Gods mercy and grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
A little strong on the judgmental element don't you think? Or is that what a contrite heat looks like in Philly? City of brotherly love.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Actually Depleted was spot on with her assessment, and you're meddling with her and are off track. Correcting someone as she kindly did with gentle rebuke isn't unloving anymore than telling a child the truth and correcting them.
 
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
So just what was your salvation experience like? Did you just one day arrive at the conclusion that you were elect and therefore saved?

From the scriptures how would you tell someone how to be saved? What I driving for here is are you saved because you are elect or are you elect because you are saved. Your proof texts clearly teach the latter not the former.

I'm not saying this to imply that you are not saved but to bring to remembrance that you did not have so great a knowledge of theology when you received Christ as a knowledge of your sinfulness and Christ's righteousness.

When I heard the word of God and was convicted of my sin I at last saw the need to be saved. Christ presented Himself as my Savior and bid me come to Him. I was changed in an instant and was made a new creation in Christ Jesus an heir of eternal salvation. I do not reckon any of that to election but to Gods mercy and grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You're consumed with our testimonies for some reason. :rolleyes:
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
So just what was your salvation experience like? Did you just one day arrive at the conclusion that you were elect and therefore saved?
Nope. I realized one day I was under wrath like the rest of mankind, utterly lost and needed Christ to save me. Ephesians 2:3.

From the scriptures how would you tell someone how to be saved?
I just showed you that up above. Then I'd tell them after they believed, that, if they are saved, we can now look at Ephesians 1 and tell them how God did this in His counsel, by predestining them and electing them. Yes, I'd put the babe right onto the milk of the Word. Perhaps many haven't been given this milk, so they are gagging on it now and are immature in the knowledge of the truth.

What I driving for here is are you saved because you are elect or are you elect because you are saved. Your proof texts clearly teach the latter not the former.
The texts I've given are as plain as the fact you despise Sovereign election and cling to free will error. Another thing, it is duly noted you rarely ever use any Scripture. Wonder why?

I'm not saying this to imply that you are not saved but to bring to remembrance that you did not have so great a knowledge of theology when you received Christ as a knowledge of your sinfulness and Christ's righteousness.
Oh, I don't know, it could be that you're implying I'm not saved because I believe God did the saving and not myself. I'm pretty convinced of it actually.

Some feel way more secure in their own ability to choose (which they didn't do, btw) than in the fact God actually did the choosing. In fact I feel way more secure now knowing He did that what I could not possibly do.

When I heard the word of God and was convicted of my sin I at last saw the need to be saved.
Same here. That happens to all the elect, and only to the elect.

Christ presented Himself as my Savior and bid me come to Him. I was changed in an instant and was made a new creation in Christ Jesus an heir of eternal salvation. I do not reckon any of that to election but to Gods mercy and grace.
That all happened because He elected you, and it would not have happened otherwise.

You've been given plenty of Scripture that proves God's Sovereign election. You dismiss His Word and decree outright. Certainly it isn't acceptable that He did this or you'd gladly embrace such a wonderful truth.

When are you going to believe the parts of Scripture you don't like?
 
Dec 9, 2011
13,762
1,731
113
Correct. They love darkness better than they do Light.

Now, the unregenerate don't love God. Oh, they say they love God, but won't open and read a bible that tells them about Him, won't visit a local church that preaches about Him, won't have continual fellowship with His ppl, &c.
And those that DID get saved were chosen,right? even though the scripture says whosoever will and ALL that labor and are heavy laden come unto me(JESUS),and I will give you rest.
 
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
And those that DID get saved were chosen,right?
Why the ? Are any saved w/o God choosing them?


even though the scripture says whosoever will and ALL that labor and are heavy laden come unto me(JESUS),and I will give you rest.
Exactly. Now, why do some relish in their sins and others become burdened by them?
 
P

psalm6819

Guest
Actuallyi Depleted was spot on with her assessment, and you're meddling with her and are off track. Correcting someone as she kindly did with gentle rebuke isn't unloving anymore than telling a child the truth and correcting them.
Lol so that is your idea of love?
Hence your opinion of God's mercy and lovingkindness....

Now that's sad.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
Lol so that is your idea of love?
Yes, and it is Biblical.

Hence your opinion of God's mercy and lovingkindness....
Yes, what I've stated would also reflect the same kind of love God demonstrates toward His children in Scripture.

Now that's sad.
Yes, you need to learn biblical love.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Did you just call me self absorbed?


I think I'll have to spend more time thinking about me... and see if I come up with an alternate opinion about myself.
Lol at least your Eye has a singular focus.