God's sovereignity and man's "freedom"...

[preacher4truth]

What does Isaiah 46:10 really say? It says that God has declared from the beginning how the end will turn out. Read Revelation and see the Lord ruling and reigning in the new heavens and earth for eternity. It doesn't say He has determined every thing in between.

That is about one of the most obtuse misinterpretations of Scripture I've seen in awhile, and that is quite the feat on this site. I'd congratulate you but I'm not handing out any trophies for ignorant misusage of Biblical texts today.

When God says he has declared the beginning from the end, it entails all that is in between. The context of the passage and the rest of Scripture validate this, thus the balance of the text: "...and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,"

John146 and his versology need to be withstood as most if not all of his false teachings stem from this faulty out of context wresting of truth.

 

[Bogadile]

That is about one of the most obtuse misinterpretations of Scripture I've seen in awhile, and that is quite the feat on this site. I'd congratulate you but I'm not handing out any trophies for ignorant misusage of Biblical texts today.

When God says he has declared the beginning from the end, it entails all that is in between. The context of the passage and the rest of Scripture validate this, thus the balance of the text: "...and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,"

John146 and his versology need to be withstood as most if not all of his false teachings stem from this faulty out of context wresting of truth.

I was drinking sprite and now it is all over my keyboard.

I started laughing at the "that is quite the feat on this site"

 

[preacher4truth]

I was drinking sprite and now it is all over my keyboard.

I started laughing at the "that is quite the feat on this site"

Imagine the weak little god who doesn't know all the things in between. And learns. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pathetic.

Hey, if you're ever here in town, I'll get you a new Sprite and buy you dinner. We can laugh together and have real fellowship!

(and just wait, john146 or one of his ilk will one-up the last obtuse misinterpretation. It's just a matter of time!)

 

[Bogadile]

Imagine the weak little god who doesn't know all the things in between. And learns. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pathetic.

Hey, if you're ever here in town, I'll get you a new Sprite and buy you dinner. We can laugh together and have real fellowship!

(and just wait, john146 or one of his ilk will one-up the last obtuse misinterpretation. It's just a matter of time!)

"Wow! That was unexpected!" -god of opentheism
"Oops!" -god of opentheism
"How'd that happen?" -god of opentheism
"Whats going on now?" -god of opentheism

 

[Johnny_B]

If only you could figure out how to use your favorite buzz word.

There is no question that God is sovereign. It is Gods way or the highway. We need to be like Joshua.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It would be even greater if people would read or quote Joshua in context, he speaks of the election of Abraham, Isacc and Jacob, Esau, Moses and Aaron in his influanced proclaimation from the Lord, in "thus says the Lord" Joshua first speaks of God's sovereignty it is how he first begins his proclaimation of the Lord's message. Joshua 24:2-5

“And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.4 And to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. And I gave Esau the hill country of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt.5 And I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt with what I did in the midst of it, and afterward I brought you out.”

What did Paul say about Jacob and Esau, Romans 9:11-13 “though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Joshua also speaks of God's sovereignty, with what he says in verse 5, which the Lord said He was going to do in Genesis 15:13-14 “Then the Lord said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years.14 But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions.” Which He in His sovereignty brought to pass in Exodus, I do not understand why people think that the Lord is not all powerful, all knowing and brings about what He says He will do, anything less then that is man.

 

[joaniemarie]

I don't believe a person can have growing faith on this side of heaven if one believes what they say or do in their life regarding their relationship with the Lord Jesus doesn't matter in the scheme of things.


Why pray for God's will if you have no part in your relationship with Him for seeing it come to pass? Does God expect us to live in this way? I don't believe so.

He doesn't expect us to live in mystery about how He relates to us IN Christ. Jesus came so we could see God and relate to Him where we are. He wants us to live in faith believing He will do as He promises. We can know He is all powerful and all good and He can do all things and most of what He does we are not aware since it's God who keeps the universe going. But in this realm of our lives., He wants us to depend on Him as we see Jesus.


We can also know He cannot lie. It's not that He won't lie., He cannot lie. Do you want to take that into consideration? God can do anything He wants but God cannot lie. Do some want to argue that God can lie if He wants to? That is how silly this subject can go. Some can "theorize" God right out of their day to day lives and then the devil wins.

 

[John146]

Imagine the weak little god who doesn't know all the things in between. And learns. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pathetic.

Hey, if you're ever here in town, I'll get you a new Sprite and buy you dinner. We can laugh together and have real fellowship!

(and just wait, john146 or one of his ilk will one-up the last obtuse misinterpretation. It's just a matter of time!)

Weak little God? It actually makes Him more mighty knowing He is working in and through our choices to bring about His glory. Wow! What a mighty God we serve!

Did not God learn what it was like to be a man in the flesh? Have you read Hebrews?

 

[notuptome]

It would be even greater if people would read or quote Joshua in context, he speaks of the election of Abraham, Isacc and Jacob, Esau, Moses and Aaron in his influanced proclaimation from the Lord, in "thus says the Lord" Joshua first speaks of God's sovereignty it is how he first begins his proclaimation of the Lord's message. Joshua 24:2-5

“And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.4 And to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. And I gave Esau the hill country of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt.5 And I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt with what I did in the midst of it, and afterward I brought you out.”

What did Paul say about Jacob and Esau, Romans 9:11-13 “though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Joshua also speaks of God's sovereignty, with what he says in verse 5, which the Lord said He was going to do in Genesis 15:13-14 “Then the Lord said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years.14 But I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions.” Which He in His sovereignty brought to pass in Exodus, I do not understand why people think that the Lord is not all powerful, all knowing and brings about what He says He will do, anything less then that is man.

That God demands man to choose does not lessen or threaten Gods sovereignty. Gods love demands that man choose to allow God to manifest His love in us and turn from evil. Gods mercy makes it possible for man to choose and not be subjected to immediate judgment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[John146]

From man's perspective they repented and God relented of the judgment He was about to bring on Nineveh. Mind you that later on it was actually destroyed.

Jeremiah 18 explains this principle further.

You're calling God a liar if you say He knew ahead of time Nineveh would repent and in turn He would not destroy them in forty days. Did God lie?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I have heard this several times that God's sovereignty and man's freedom are like two parallel lines that will meet in eternity. Thanks to Dr. R.C. Sproul, he has debunked this ideology.

In the above picture, you see two railroad tracks that run parallel to each other. If you look off into the distance, it does look like they meet on the horizon. However, in reality, they do not. If these two tracks meet, 1) they are not parallel to each other, and 2) the train and all the ppl on it are in grave trouble, as they will crash. So, in reality, God's sovereignty and man's "freedom" will never meet anywhere.

Man does have a "freedom", but this "freedom" is confined to his nature. Look no further than Joseph being betrayed and sold into slavery by his brothers. They wanted to kill him, but one of his brothers, I think it was Reuben, talked them out of doing that, and sold him into slavery instead. No one coerced them into doing this, as they freely and gladly ridded themselves of their younger brother. As Joseph told them later, "you did it for evil, God did it for good." So there's man's freedom and God's sovereignty in full view.

Then there's the cross of the Christ. As Peter stated "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."[Acts 2:23] Again, no one coerced them into having the Christ crucified. They acted in accordance with their wicked hearts, as they hated the Christ with nary a cause to do so. As the Christ plainly stated, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’[John 15:25]

So, the sooner ppl realize that God's sovereignty and man's "freedom" will meet nowhere, and that both are biblically true, the sooner we can go on to debating real truths.

I don't believe that anyone denies the fact that what God has said he will do - he will do. Jesus was to come from the bloodline of Joseph - and in that - God turned the evil that his brother's did to good in order for the Christ to come from the bloodline preordained (predetermined) by God . . . God did not devise that his brothers do evil so that good may come.

No one has denied that God did not have a predetermined plan for the salvation of man . . . a perfect sacrifice to redeem mankind and in that God has declared the beginning from the end . . The beginning - Genesis - And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; and he will crush your head and you will strike his heel . . . the end - Revelation - He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God . . He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but
it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11
​

And what is predetermined, within that plan of salvation, is that man has to believe in the one and only begotten Son of God in order to be reconciled to God.

 

[Johnny_B]

A good question is what does God's sovereignty have to do with how we view Him and us? Does it mean God never changes His mind? Does it mean we can be on a course of destruction (and rightly so) but when we pray in the name of Jesus., God changes our course?.... but if we didn't pray., our course might not have been changed? Yes. Prayer changes things.

God's sovereignty is a fact but how it plays out in our lives is a mystery. What is not a mystery is we need to have a close relationship with Jesus every day that includes talking to Him and Him talking to us through the Holy Spirit and by reading the Bible and "allowing" the Holy Spirit to lead us if we want God's will done in our lives. If we don't do those things., God's will is not going to be done in our lives.

For myself., I don't worry about the major mysteries anymore but I do want to be in His will and how to be in His will is not a mystery.

Sister you can pray all you want to and you will never change the Lord's mind, it is our minds that change in prayer as we pray and seek the Lord we see that the Lord's way is best and that our way is never best, remember what the Spirit said in the book of Numbers 23:19 “God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?”

Isaiah adds to this truth about the Lord's nature, Deuteronomy 29:29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.”

Isaiah 40:13-14 “Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord,or what man shows him his counsel?14 Whom did he consult,and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice,and taught him knowledge,and showed him the way of understanding?”

It amazes me that we as specks of dust on a bigger speck of dust in a universe so massive that we cannot see it with our natural vision, think that we can influance God or tell Him what is best. Because that is exactly what is being thought when we say we can change God's mind on something that we have limited information on and He has all the information, because He knows the beginning from the end. We do not even know what we are going to have for breakfast tomorrow, yet we think we have power to change the Lord's mind.

Jesus taught us to pray, “Your kingdom come, your will be done,on earth as it is in heaven.”

 

[Bogadile]

You're calling God a liar if you say He knew ahead of time Nineveh would repent and in turn He would not destroy them in forty days. Did God lie?

I do not know what to say.

Are you saying God does not know the future? Last time I checked knowing the future was one of the qualifications to be God. That is what the trial of the false gods is about in Isaiah, the idols are told to tell what will happen in the future and what has taken place and for what reason. But the idols cannot do any of it.

 

[Johnny_B]

Yes ma'am. Amen!

What a great thought. Thank you. Prayer has the ability to change God's mind and alter the course of history.

Wow this is a high view of man and a low view of the Lord, to think that man knows better than the Lord and that man can change the Lord's mind. That does not sound like the God of Scripture.

 

[notmyown]

not to stray too far off-piste, but God uses means to accomplish His ends, right?

through the proclamation of the Gospel (means) God saves those who believe (end).
though i agree prayer changes us, and through it God teaches us to align with His will, i also think in some way i don't understand o), God uses our prayers as a means to accomplish His purposes.

not that He doesn't know all, or couldn't do whatever pleases Him anyway, or changes His mind.
but that we have this blessing to participate through prayer....
i know i worded that poorly; hope someone comprehends what i'm saying.

and correction appreciated.

 

[Bogadile]

not to stray too far off-piste

Hey, are you finnish?

I ask because "piste" means point in finnish! So you said "off point" which would make sense, kind of like off topic. Interesting. But you probably meant off topic in some other language.

 

[notmyown]

Hey, are you finnish?

I ask because "piste" means point in finnish! So you said "off point" which would make sense, kind of like off topic. Interesting. But you probably meant off topic in some other language.

i wish! lol

it's a skiers phrase here, and now i know why! thank you.

 

[John146]

Wow this is a high view of man and a low view of the Lord, to think that man knows better than the Lord and that man can change the Lord's mind. That does not sound like the God of Scripture.

Not so my friend. God is reachable and touchable through our prayers. Don't you believe in the power of prayer? Why pray?

 

[Mercy4u]

So, the sooner ppl realize that God's sovereignty and man's "freedom" will meet nowhere

To humble ourselves and line our will, with the will of God is actually crucial for mankind. It is salvation for the unbeliever and the means to maturity for believers.

Colossians 3:25 (NASB95)
25 For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.


1 Peter 1:17 (NASB95)
17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;


Acts 10:34–35 (NASB95)
34 Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

Psalm 9:8
New American Standard Bible
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.

 

[John146]

I do not know what to say.

Are you saying God does not know the future? Last time I checked knowing the future was one of the qualifications to be God. That is what the trial of the false gods is about in Isaiah, the idols are told to tell what will happen in the future and what has taken place and for what reason. But the idols cannot do any of it.

I am saying that what if God has chosen to limit His knowledge of man's future decisions? He certainly knows us better than we know ourselves. God has declared in His word many things that are certain in the future and He will see that it comes to pass. But what if there are some things that aren't knowledge until the decision is made?

God has chosen to remember our sins no more. Has He not? Aren't you glad when we are in His presence He is not remembering the sinners we were on earth? There will be no sin or remembrance of sin in heaven.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I have heard this several times that God's sovereignty and man's freedom are like two parallel lines that will meet in eternity.

Since R. C. Sproul is a dyed-in-the-wool Calvinist, we can t really expect him to expound on the real Bible teaching on God's sovereignty and man's free will. We should simply examine the Scriptures for the truth. So what do we find:

1. God is indeed on His throne, therefore He is sovereign over the entire universe. Christ is also on His throne and will come to earth as King of kings and Lord of lords. So there is no disputing the sovereignty of God.

2. God created mankind as free moral agents, in the image of God, and also planted a conscience within every human being. The conscience is de facto the Law (the Ten Commandments) for those who are without the Law.

3. Ever since the Fall of Adam and Eve, all human beings are tainted with the virus of sin, and possess the Adamic sin nature. Therefore there is none righteous, no not one, and all men need to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

4. Man's free will cannot possibly conflict with God s sovereignty, since all men are mere mortals. However, man s free will is in conflict with God s HOLINESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. Hence all men everywhere are commanded to repent and obey the Gospel.

5. The concept of *total depravity* as taught by Calvinists is totally false. Sinners can and do respond to the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit and are saved thereby. Here is the Scripture that demolishes so-called *total depravity*:

THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED IN THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

SINNERS ARE CONVICTED BY THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL AND THE HOLY SPIRIT
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (Acts 2:37)

SINNERS ARE COMMANDED TO REPENT AND BE CONVERTED
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

SINNERS ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:41)

Just from these Scriptures, we can see that God was not playing favorites. The Gospel was preach to ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, which meant that every Jew who heard this message was offered the gift of the Holy Spirit (which is also the gift of eternal life). While a great multitude was saved, there were some who heard and did not repent. Hence the persecution of the apostles and Christians in Jerusalem. But there is absolutely no indication that God elected some Jews to be saved and selected some to be damned. Thus ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. This in itself proves the great fallacy of *unconditional election* as taught by Calvinists.