God's sovereignity and man's "freedom"...

[Laish]

The word "sovereign" is not found in the KJV so I am curious how people use the Bible to define God's attributes.

Neither iare the words King James Version only found there .
Here is a few helpful verses on God’s sovereignty
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Psalm 115:3[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Proverbs 16:9[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Job 42:2[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Proverbs 19:21 [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] Psalm 103:19 [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Romans 8:28 [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Romans 9:18 [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Psalms 135:6 [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.
There ya go .
Blessings
Bill [/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Nehemiah6]

Psalms 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Your translation has actually changed the meaning of this verse. Here is what we have in the KJB:

Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

We have the past tense in this verse, while yours has the present tense, and it does make a difference. Had your translation been correct then God would have brought about the salvation of each and every Jew at the time of Christ. Why? Because He chose Israel to be a "chosen people" for Him. In the same Psalm (v 4) we read: For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Yet, that is NOT what happened, and the Lord lamented over Jerusalem and its inhabitants.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Mt 23:37).

This Scripture not only confirms the free will of men (and ye would not) to either believe God or disbelieve God, but it TOTALLY DEMOLISHES the fallacy of *Unconditional Election* (according to Five Point Calvinism). If Calvinistic election had been biblical, each and every Jew in Jerusalem and Judea would have been saved. After all, the LORD had chosen Jacob for Himself.

 

[Snoozy]

hi brother nehemiah. remember that not all israel is israel like paul says.

u did something wrong in the old testament and u were cut off from the people

 

[Nehemiah6]

hi brother nehemiah. remember that not all israel is israel like paul says.

u did something wrong in the old testament and u were cut off from the people

Understood. But according to Calvinism, all Israel would automatically be all Israel.

After all they were "unconditionally elected". And that was really my point.

For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

 

[Laish]

Your translation has actually changed the meaning of this verse. Here is what we have in the KJB:

Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

We have the past tense in this verse, while yours has the present tense, and it does make a difference. Had your translation been correct then God would have brought about the salvation of each and every Jew at the time of Christ. Why? Because He chose Israel to be a "chosen people" for Him. In the same Psalm (v 4) we read: For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Yet, that is NOT what happened, and the Lord lamented over Jerusalem and its inhabitants.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Mt 23:37).

This Scripture not only confirms the free will of men (and ye would not) to either believe God or disbelieve God, but it TOTALLY DEMOLISHES the fallacy of *Unconditional Election* (according to Five Point Calvinism). If Calvinistic election had been biblical, each and every Jew in Jerusalem and Judea would have been saved. After all, the LORD had chosen Jacob for Himself.

Well I am Reformed to get the mater strait I had never heard of Calvin until well after I was saved . I dont follow him I follow what is found in scripture.
an as for your Post in general I had a chuckle. Sense it is obvious you don’t understand what Reformed folks believe,
concerning God’s sovereignty or His will as shown in the scriptures. If you want to confront a man on his beliefs know what they are first . It’s like pointing at the spare tire in the trunk of a man’s car and then say that’s why you don’t like the radio. That’s just silly .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Nehemiah6]

an as for your Post in general I had a chuckle. Sense it is obvious you don’t understand what Reformed folks believe, concerning God’s sovereignty or His will as shown in the scriptures. If you want to confront a man on his beliefs know what they are first . It’s like pointing at the spare tire in the trunk of a man’s car and then say that’s why you don’t like the radio. That’s just silly.

Well, instead of mocking my post you should have shown everyone how I have misunderstood Reformed Theology. In fact, I understand it very well, so why don't you tell us why the chosen people of God were not unconditionally chosen as per Calvinism? After all election and chosen mean the same thing. Or perhaps you see what a great fallacy it is, but cannot admit it to yourself or to others.

 

[Laish]

Your translation has actually changed the meaning of this verse. Here is what we have in the KJB:

Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

We have the past tense in this verse, while yours has the present tense, and it does make a difference.

Ok how is it changed ? I read it and understand it the same way in the NASB ESV KJV NKJV YLT .
aditional question who do you think is the he is that I put in bold . That could change things too .

Blessings
Bill

 

[Nehemiah6]

Ok how is it changed ? I read it and understand it the same way in the NASB ESV KJV NKJV YLT.

Just because the modern versions follow each other like lemmings does not mean they are correct. Here is the verse in Hebrew (right to left) and the literal reading (left to right):

כֹּ֤ל אֲשֶׁר־חָפֵ֥ץ יְהוָ֗ה עָ֫שָׂ֥ה בַּשָּׁמַ֥יִם וּבָאָ֑רֶץ בַּ֝יַּמִּ֗ים וְכָל־תְּהֹומֹֽות׃

All after pleased the LORD [that] did [He] in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and in all deep places.

The King James Bible follows this and places [that] in italics

Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

Therefore in conformity to the past tense, everything from verse 7-12 speaks about the past doings of the Lord.

additional question who do you think is the he is that I put in bold . That could change things too.

While the "he" is not in the Hebrew, it is implied, therefore the KJB did not put that in italics. It is a reference to God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

.......

God determined Israel, the birth and even the crucifixion of Jesus. There are too many examples to even list. The truth is that God can do what He wants. No way around that. Do you honestly believe solely by reading Scripture that God declared only how things will end in the book of Revelation but for the rest of human history we are just "free falling"?
Isn't that like deism? Go figure.

John146 is an open theist. Proceed with caution.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What? What? Which Bible have you been reading?

An antiquated 17th century version. Yes, version.

 

[SovereignGrace]

There we go.

While the word sovereign may not be found in your favorite bible translation, the concept certainly is.

God is the ruler and king of all. Sovereign Lord. Almighty.

Trinity isn't in the bible but can be easily taught.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm not sure what you mean by the bold portion above.

Man's "freedom" is in the bible. But in proper context, that "freedom" is restricted to their nature. Like someone in a jail cell. They freely move within that cell, but can't go past those prison bars. Ppl freely move within the confines of their nature, but can't go past it. Those Pharisees and Joseph's brothers freely acted within the confines of their nature when they did what they did. No one forced them to do their wicked deeds. They, in accordance to their wicked hearts, freely did what they did.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I was drinking sprite and now it is all over my keyboard.

I started laughing at the "that is quite the feat on this site"

 

[joaniemarie]

Sister you can pray all you want to and you will never change the Lord's mind, it is our minds that change in prayer as we pray and seek the Lord we see that the Lord's way is best and that our way is never best, remember what the Spirit said in the book of Numbers 23:19 “God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?”

Isaiah adds to this truth about the Lord's nature, Deuteronomy 29:29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.”

Isaiah 40:13-14 “Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord,or what man shows him his counsel?14 Whom did he consult,and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice,and taught him knowledge,and showed him the way of understanding?”

It amazes me that we as specks of dust on a bigger speck of dust in a universe so massive that we cannot see it with our natural vision, think that we can influance God or tell Him what is best. Because that is exactly what is being thought when we say we can change God's mind on something that we have limited information on and He has all the information, because He knows the beginning from the end. We do not even know what we are going to have for breakfast tomorrow, yet we think we have power to change the Lord's mind.

Jesus taught us to pray, “Your kingdom come, your will be done,on earth as it is in heaven.”

Well Johnny., I know in the scheme of things it's not God's idea that I pray for a German Shepherd dog. It's not God's idea that I pray for a house in the country with a certain kind of sink and faucet. It's not His idea I pray for a pair of shoes that won't hurt my feet. Yet God in His love and generosity gave those things and more to me just because I asked and He loves me. He could have given me another trailer but instead He gave me a little house and then 2 dogs. (one a perfect gentle German Shepherd)

There are many things that I pray for that are not important in the hierarchy of importance in this life to anyone but me. Yet the Lord has considered me who you consider a tiny speck of sand in the scheme of things on the planet., and answered my prayers. Jesus said if we have seen Him we have seen the Father.

If you believe God is a far off., not interested in you anymore than a speck of dust in the world of hundreds of millions of billions of other specks of dust totally unimportant., than yes., you won't influence God to answer your prayers because you wouldn't have believed the Bible when it says you are more important that the lilies of the field or the birds of the air. I draw your attention to Psalms 23 and the words of God about Jesus our Good Shepherd who loves His sheep and hears them and they hear Him.

[SUP]1 [/SUP]The Lord is my Shepherd [to feed, guide, and shield me], I shall not lack.
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]He makes me lie down in [fresh, tender] green pastures; He leads me beside the still and restful waters.
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]He refreshes and restores my life (my self); He leads me in the paths of righteousness [uprightness and right standing with Him—not for my earning it, but] for His name’s sake.
[SUP]
4 [/SUP]Yes, though I walk through the [deep, sunless] valley of the shadow of death, I will fear or dread no evil, for You are with me; Your rod [to protect] and Your staff [to guide], they comfort me.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with [SUP][a][/SUP]oil; my [brimming] cup runs over.
[SUP]
6 [/SUP]Surely or only goodness, mercy, and unfailing love shall follow me all the days of my life, and through the length of my days the house of the Lord [and His presence] shall be my dwelling place.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't believe a person can have growing faith on this side of heaven if one believes what they say or do in their life regarding their relationship with the Lord Jesus doesn't matter in the scheme of things.


Why pray for God's will if you have no part in your relationship with Him for seeing it come to pass? Does God expect us to live in this way? I don't believe so.

He doesn't expect us to live in mystery about how He relates to us IN Christ. Jesus came so we could see God and relate to Him where we are. He wants us to live in faith believing He will do as He promises. We can know He is all powerful and all good and He can do all things and most of what He does we are not aware since it's God who keeps the universe going. But in this realm of our lives., He wants us to depend on Him as we see Jesus.


We can also know He cannot lie. It's not that He won't lie., He cannot lie. Do you want to take that into consideration? God can do anything He wants but God cannot lie. Do some want to argue that God can lie if He wants to? That is how silly this subject can go. Some can "theorize" God right out of their day to day lives and then the devil wins.

Prayer is about our wills being bent to God's, not vice versa.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I do not know what to say.

Are you saying God does not know the future? Last time I checked knowing the future was one of the qualifications to be God. That is what the trial of the false gods is about in Isaiah, the idols are told to tell what will happen in the future and what has taken place and for what reason. But the idols cannot do any of it.

Again, John 146 is an open theist. Tread lightly.

 

[joaniemarie]

That is called an Anthropomorphism.

God already knows, when God repents or changes His mind in the scriptures, it is not like a human being saying "oops!".

You cannot just take a verse that states God repents and then make that the end all be all for the rest of Scripture. You must look at the entire revelation, with both eyes open.

Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';"

Can't help but laugh at you guys with the big words about God's amazing sovereignty and putting in the word... "anthropomorphism" The ascribing of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals or natural phenomena. (had to look that one up)

So., when I pray to my Father.... and when the Bible says for us to see Jesus and we will also see the Father I should realize God is not intending to be familiar or intimate or showing us His love with and for us in our humanity? No., I don't think so guys. Jesus came to meet us where we are in our humanity. There is a time for big words and ideas and then there is a time for getting down to where the rubber meets the road where most of us are. Prayer changes things. Relationship changes things.

God's will for us is always good and yet because of our foolishness or for lack of faith believing Him., we can miss out on all kinds of things He wants for us. Knowing the truth will set us free but first we have to know it and then believe it. It takes an action on our part called faith. We have these things by grace through faith.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Can't help but laugh at you guys with the big words about God's amazing sovereignty and putting in the word... "anthropomorphism" The ascribing of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals or natural phenomena. (had to look that one up)

So., when I pray to my Father.... and when the Bible says for us to see Jesus and we will also see the Father I should realize God is not intending to be familiar or intimate or showing us His love with and for us in our humanity? No., I don't think so guys. Jesus came to meet us where we are in our humanity. There is a time for big words and ideas and then there is a time for getting down to where the rubber meets the road where most of us are. Prayer changes things. Relationship changes things.

God's will for us is always good and yet because of our foolishness or for lack of faith believing Him., we can miss out on all kinds of things He wants for us. Knowing the truth will set us free but first we have to know it and then believe it. It takes an action on our part called faith. We have these things by grace through faith.

Yes, prayers change things. But God ain't one of them.

If God changes His mind, then He is not immutable.

Romans 1:22,23 in full display.

 

[joaniemarie]

Yes, prayers change things. But God ain't one of them.

If God changes His mind, then He is not immutable.

Romans 1:22,23 in full display.

OK, so how do you know what God's will is if He is so far away and uninterested in your day to day life? Does the Holy Spirit witness with your spirit? How do you go about your daily life with such an impersonal God? Isn't God your Father too? Isn't He touched by your weaknesses? Isn't He moved by your prayers? The Bible says He is so I prefer to believe He is than He isn't. Your views on God are too far away for me to grasp.
And the Bible also says that we need to "with all the saints begin to grasp the height and length and breath of His love for us"

 

[SovereignGrace]

OK, so how do you know what God's will is if He is so far away and uninterested in your day to day life? Does the Holy Spirit witness with your spirit? How do you go about your daily life with such an impersonal God? Isn't God your Father too? Isn't He touched by your weaknesses? Isn't He moved by your prayers? The Bible says He is so I prefer to believe He is than He isn't. Your views on God are too far away for me to grasp.
And the Bible also says that we need to "with all the saints begin to grasp the height and length and breath of His love for us"

Father knows best. That's why our wills are bent towards His.