God's sovereignity and man's "freedom"...
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A Brother at church was praying for a job at a certain police dept. He took a test, but didn't see the back of one page, and because he didn't answer those ?, he wasn't hired. He was hired at another precinct that is about 10-15 minutes from the precinct he wanted. A month or two later, that precinct had a huge layoff. He would have gotten laid off if he'd been hired there, because He changed His mind and had given him that job.
Father knows best.
Father knows best.
Finally looked up "open theism". Here's what I found.
Open Theism is the thesis that, because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions. Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future.
To think that God is working in and through each of our decisions to bring about His glory! Wow! We have a mighty God!
Again, prophecy is future knowledge of God and there is nothing man or Satan can do to thwart these purposes to come to pass. God knows the end from the beginning. However, our current condition is based upon what we do with His word.
Open Theism is the thesis that, because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions. Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future.
To think that God is working in and through each of our decisions to bring about His glory! Wow! We have a mighty God!
Again, prophecy is future knowledge of God and there is nothing man or Satan can do to thwart these purposes to come to pass. God knows the end from the beginning. However, our current condition is based upon what we do with His word.
You mean I'm against the belief system of James White? I'll take it...
Did God not change His direction concerning Nineveh?
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
and yet...10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Did God not change His direction concerning Nineveh?
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
and yet...10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Hebrew does not have a past tense.
Hebrew verbs do not look at time. They describe quality of action. The Hebrew perfect (which is used here) expresses action completed. The imperfect describes action which is incomplete. The present describes action which is ongoing. These descriptions of the tenses is rather simplistic [it is a great deal more complex]. In any case any or all the tenses can refer to present, past, or future time.
Hebrew verbs do not look at time. They describe quality of action. The Hebrew perfect (which is used here) expresses action completed. The imperfect describes action which is incomplete. The present describes action which is ongoing. These descriptions of the tenses is rather simplistic [it is a great deal more complex]. In any case any or all the tenses can refer to present, past, or future time.
To be more precise, He was to come through the lineage of Judah and not Joseph. God used the wickedness of his(Joseph) brothers' heart to bring His ppl into Egypt to feed them through the famine. Romans 8:28.
Many deny this, even you. The plan is to actually save ppl from their sins, not give them just a chance. Salvation is an actuality, not a possibility.
And yet they can not believe apart from divine quickening. Unless God first wroughts grace in their hearts, they can not and will not believe. Salvation is an inward act that starts within the hearts of the lost and comes out, not outward and then inward.
I viewed this, knowing it was directed at me(I have you on ignore again, and this time permanently), and you're a walking heresy. Heresy begets heresy. Your theology is sad to behold. Please do not bother responding, because I won't see it. Unless someone quotes it, that it.
Your heresies know no bounds. Sad. Really, really, REALLY sad.
Your heresies know no bounds. Sad. Really, really, REALLY sad.
I have heard this several times that God's sovereignty and man's freedom are like two parallel lines that will meet in eternity. Thanks to Dr. R.C. Sproul, he has debunked this ideology.
In the above picture, you see two railroad tracks that run parallel to each other. If you look off into the distance, it does look like they meet on the horizon. However, in reality, they do not. If these two tracks meet, 1) they are not parallel to each other, and 2) the train and all the ppl on it are in grave trouble, as they will crash. So, in reality, God's sovereignty and man's "freedom" will never meet anywhere.
Man does have a "freedom", but this "freedom" is confined to his nature. Look no further than Joseph being betrayed and sold into slavery by his brothers. They wanted to kill him, but one of his brothers, I think it was Reuben, talked them out of doing that, and sold him into slavery instead. No one coerced them into doing this, as they freely and gladly ridded themselves of their younger brother. As Joseph told them later, "you did it for evil, God did it for good." So there's man's freedom and God's sovereignty in full view.
Then there's the cross of the Christ. As Peter stated "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."[Acts 2:23] Again, no one coerced them into having the Christ crucified. They acted in accordance with their wicked hearts, as they hated the Christ with nary a cause to do so. As the Christ plainly stated, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’[John 15:25]
So, the sooner ppl realize that God's sovereignty and man's "freedom" will meet nowhere, and that both are biblically true, the sooner we can go on to debating real truths.
In the above picture, you see two railroad tracks that run parallel to each other. If you look off into the distance, it does look like they meet on the horizon. However, in reality, they do not. If these two tracks meet, 1) they are not parallel to each other, and 2) the train and all the ppl on it are in grave trouble, as they will crash. So, in reality, God's sovereignty and man's "freedom" will never meet anywhere.
Man does have a "freedom", but this "freedom" is confined to his nature. Look no further than Joseph being betrayed and sold into slavery by his brothers. They wanted to kill him, but one of his brothers, I think it was Reuben, talked them out of doing that, and sold him into slavery instead. No one coerced them into doing this, as they freely and gladly ridded themselves of their younger brother. As Joseph told them later, "you did it for evil, God did it for good." So there's man's freedom and God's sovereignty in full view.
Then there's the cross of the Christ. As Peter stated "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."[Acts 2:23] Again, no one coerced them into having the Christ crucified. They acted in accordance with their wicked hearts, as they hated the Christ with nary a cause to do so. As the Christ plainly stated, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’[John 15:25]
So, the sooner ppl realize that God's sovereignty and man's "freedom" will meet nowhere, and that both are biblically true, the sooner we can go on to debating real truths.
The Joseph story is my favorite story and it does not support Calvinism... it never did. God did not make people sin in that story. Everyone... understands that God can use sin for a good. The difference is Calvinist claim God causes evil...determines it... making him the evil-doer. Other lines of thought claim God does not cause/determine evil but uses the evil others have done... God works it out into a good. God is in control regardless of our free-willed actions.
God's will is to allow men to choose. That's His sovereign will. This doesn't make God less powerful or less in control. God doesn't need to cause/determine evil to be in control.
I viewed this, knowing it was directed at me(I have you on ignore again, and this time permanently), and you're a walking heresy. Heresy begets heresy. Your theology is sad to behold. Please do not bother responding, because I won't see it. Unless someone quotes it, that it.
Your heresies know no bounds. Sad. Really, really, REALLY sad.
Your heresies know no bounds. Sad. Really, really, REALLY sad.
Well, then quit using free will. Free means w/o restrictions. The lost's will is not free, but bound in sin.[Matthew 6:24 Romans 6:6 & 6:16]
Whoa there buckaroo. I never said God makes anyone sin. Just stop it. I said God uses the wicked to fulfill the His purposes. Who stirred up the Assyrians hearts to attack Israel? Hmmmmm?[1 Chronicles 5:26] God stirred up Pul's and Tilgath-pilneser's spirits to attack Israel.
Ah, unless man has a say, then God can not save them. That's an anemic, weak, puny, minuscule 'god' you have there.
Revelation 19:6b
“Hallelujah!
[FONT="]For the Lord our God, the All-Powerful, reigns!” NET
“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.” NASB
“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.”NIV
“Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” KJV[/FONT][FONT="] (shades of Handel’s Messiah!)
All these versions convey the same thing! God is sovereign! God is in control!
[/FONT]
“Hallelujah!
[FONT="]For the Lord our God, the All-Powerful, reigns!” NET
“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.” NASB
“Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns.”NIV
“Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” KJV[/FONT][FONT="] (shades of Handel’s Messiah!)
All these versions convey the same thing! God is sovereign! God is in control!
[/FONT]
God uses primary and secondary means to fulfill His purposes. But God does not make anyone sin. Its their wicked heart that causes them to do that.
Arminians believe they can lose their salvation just by walking outside and Molinists have a whacko view of God's omniscience. I am gladly in neither camp.
Arminians believe they can lose their salvation just by walking outside and Molinists have a whacko view of God's omniscience. I am gladly in neither camp.
Brother here is the problem, man in his own wisdom, think that if God causes/made anyone to be/do anything it makes Him a tyrant. When the Scriptures show that the Lord causes men to be born again and made them alive, that is the ones He choses to so with.
Ephesians 2:5 “even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved” While we were in our sins, being an enemy of the Lord He made us alive or born again so that we could see the kingdom of God.
I Peter 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”
John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
When we are not in Christ or in our flesh Romans 8:7-8 “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
Ephesians 2:5 “even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved” While we were in our sins, being an enemy of the Lord He made us alive or born again so that we could see the kingdom of God.
I Peter 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”
John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
When we are not in Christ or in our flesh Romans 8:7-8 “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
Well, Brother Johnny, they said that God gives every man a choice to serve Him or not. That is not found anywhere in God's holy writ. When God told Moses to go and get the Jews out of Egypt's vice-like grip, not once did God command Moses to tell Pharaoh and the Egyptians to serve Him, rather, He said 'let My ppl go that they may worship Me.'
When the oracles of God were entrusted to the Jews[Romans 3:2], they were not entrusted to any other nation.
When Joshua said 'choose this day....', that was given solely to the Jews, God's chosen ppl, and not all mankind indiscriminately.
When the scapegoat took the confessed sins and iniquities of Israel into the wilderness, the sins of the Assyrians, Jebusites, Hivites, Hittites, Egyptians, Philistines, et al, we not included.
God gave the nation of Israel a sacrificial system that no other nation had.
God is a particular God to a particular ppl.
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;[2 Peter 2:9]
When the oracles of God were entrusted to the Jews[Romans 3:2], they were not entrusted to any other nation.
When Joshua said 'choose this day....', that was given solely to the Jews, God's chosen ppl, and not all mankind indiscriminately.
When the scapegoat took the confessed sins and iniquities of Israel into the wilderness, the sins of the Assyrians, Jebusites, Hivites, Hittites, Egyptians, Philistines, et al, we not included.
God gave the nation of Israel a sacrificial system that no other nation had.
God is a particular God to a particular ppl.
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;[2 Peter 2:9]