Healing: A Question to Ponder

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Depleted

Guest
I don't believe that ANY sickness is caused by God, OR by satan. Sickness exists because we live in an extremely evil, fallen world. Can satan have influence on diseases? I believe so, yes, BUT only GOD can cure them entirely.. :)
Okay, then, and then that plague in the wilderness when God wiped out a bunch of Israelites was caused by ____? (Fill in that blank, please, because I'm not getting that.)
 
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Depleted

Guest
Ahh okay, I figured you meant that. You're lucky, if you had said demons, I was gonna punch you in the nose..lol jk :eek: :p
(Now imagining how much pain is caused by a ladybug's leg punching someone in the nose, although I can see myself hurting my own nose trying to get the bug off my nose in a hurry.)
 
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secondtimearound

Guest
Isn't God healing someone every time "done primarily for God's glory and to demonstrate His power?"
Sure, but this was a case of raising someone from the dead. And I am certainly not suggestion this was done without compassion, but it was done primarily to display such resurrection power IMO. He could have went straight to Lazarus while he was still just sick.

In my post, I was trying to show that another motivation maybe was for the sake of Lazarus' sisters? Maybe as a result of their faith but maybe because Jesus loved (yes, yes... He loves everybody!) them and wanted to bless them? To 'second' BenFTW's suggestion that compassion could have been one the Lord's motivations. Surely, we agree He is compassionate as well as worthy of glory?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Many blessings.
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
Hey folks... How is everybody..... I was wonderin if I could put in my wooden nickle worth of sense..... This is a very interesting subject and I was wonderin if I could come in from a different direction although I think it's already been touched on...... So..... Faith and faith in healing...... This is my view.........
Today's society, especially the " gentiles".....are today's "Israel" walkin in the desert for 40 years....even if they saw the signs and wonders how long would it last for some of them?. Truly....there are some whose faith is everything to them...God needs them to reach those who "will not stay" and those "yet to come"....he tried so many different ways to reach his people....they same today.....he knows how certain people can be reached and what it takes.... Apostle Paul "the thorn in his side" yet he preached and proclaimed the word in his faith....i don't think he was the only one that knew about the "thorn in his side"..im sure there were countless others yet they say it did not move his faith... Jacob wrestled with the Angel of the LORD and when he touched the socket of his hip he became lame and needed a crutch to help him....but because of his hip, an entire race will not eat the part of the hip where that tendon was......those of us with physical afflictions are beautiful.. Glorious children of God that were given the type of faith to reach only those that we can reach... Because of our "afflictions" we are in places that are desperate for God's word where people without those afflictions would not go..... God is a wonderful Father.....His reasoning and plans are far beyond anything we could ever imagine.....i do not think we do not have "enough faith" to be healed..... I think some of us have a very special calling.....
And ya gotta appreciate this one.................best movie EVER!!!!!

 
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secondtimearound

Guest
No way! You're a newbie? Some folks fit in so quickly I think they've been around forever. lol
I've lurked in forums, off and on, for nearly 20 years. Joined one or two way way back, but never hardly participated. It was mostly to access images or other resources that are usually unavailable to guests.

Tried to join here a few months back but it failed for some reason. You're the lady who passes out bibles around Acre Homes, right? I'm out on the NW side of town, but often come down somewhat that way to Spring Branch to visit a friend. We're practically neighbors!

I've read of your struggles and have been blessed by your resilient attitude and dedication over the last year or so. Sometimes deeply convicted for some of the miniscule things that upset my little unimportant apple cart.

You are an impressive woman of God.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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For the bolded part... and sometimes he doesn't? Or there are other reasons besides that that God heals? Or the other healings based on something other than God? I thought all healing was God's compassion.

I'm just getting to the point of wondering if death isn't God's compassion too -- speaking of the death of believers. (No idea about the death of nonbelievers.)
The other, and main reason, is because Jesus paid for that healing through His flesh. So when a person gets healed, Christ is receiving that which is His. Though He did this in love, purchasing such healing through His suffering, this is applied by faith. One is based on God's compassion and mercy in the moment (for the sick), and the other is someone grabbing hold of their healing found through Christ (and God gives it to them because in Christ, the promises of God are "yes" and "amen.")

Their faith is with expectation and God grants it because Christ already paid for it. The one without faith isn't taking hold of the promise, for whatever reason. Yet, God still divinely intervenes.

Hope that clarifies it. :)
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
The other, and main reason, is because Jesus paid for that healing through His flesh. So when a person gets healed, Christ is receiving that which is His. Though He did this in love, purchasing such healing through His suffering, this is applied by faith. One is based on God's compassion and mercy in the moment (for the sick), and the other is someone grabbing hold of their healing found through Christ (and God gives it to them because in Christ, the promises of God are "yes" and "amen.")

Their faith is with expectation and God grants it because Christ already paid for it. The one without faith isn't taking hold of the promise, for whatever reason. Yet, God still divinely intervenes.

Hope that clarifies it. :)
Ben.

You ever heard of "suffering for blessing" or " undeserved suffering" or "evidence testing?"
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Ben.

You ever heard of "suffering for blessing" or " undeserved suffering" or "evidence testing?"
I can vaguely guess what those things mean, but go ahead and explain it so I don't make any assumptions. :)
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
I can vaguely guess what those things mean, but go ahead and explain it so I don't make any assumptions. :)
Those are doctrines for people who get past whining and complaining and pleading to God to remove suffering and utilize His problem solving devices(bible doctrine) to HANDLE the suffering.

What you are teaching, leaves the sheep WITHOUT the problem solving devices for their suffering. All the sheep will know to do is "pray for release." and run to some "spiritual leader" to heal them. Or just "know" that they are healed.

And they have no idea why they are not healed. And have no idea how to HANDLE it.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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I was saved into the Charismatic movement. So my earliest experience was all about these gifts. "What gifts do you have?" "Must have some gifts." And so on.

I think they over emphasize them sometimes. Then later, I sort of rebounded back past the neutral center and got very strict about word studies. A bible church. Word and only more Word. No more goofing around and sit quietly still.

It is fascinating that you mention your wife's experience at that age. I came to faith at 18. But when I was about 6 there was an event that I will never forget. My mom left us kids alone at home. It was the 60s. No big deal!

My brother and I were in our backyard playing baseball with the neighborhood kids. There was a disputed call at 2nd base and an argument ensued. So one of the neighborhood kids picked up second base, which was a plank of wood with two nails in it on one and swung it at my brother. The nails caught him just below his eye and slit him wide open. He was bleeding very badly. While still standing there for a few seconds shocked and not knowing what to do, I looked up and my great grandmother was suddenly there. It was a small town and she lived about 10 minutes away.

She drove him to get medical help. Later on the adults were discussing this and they asked how she knew to come to our house or why did she? She said "I don't know? I just felt really strongly that I needed to go there." She was an old conservative Lutheran. She was not seeking signs or gifts or anything like that. I am not certain, but I do not think that they believe in such things??

But if you have not already done the math in your head, she HAD to have received this 'impression' and driven, or started driving, BEFORE my brother even got hit! Yeah... me too. :eek:

I am not sure if she ever fully appreciated what happened that day? All she would ever say is I left in such a hurry I forgot to turn off the water hose that she was watering the garden with when she got the impression. Returning, hours later, the garden was now a 'pond'. So she would just get embarrassed about that. And people would express amazement and ask what about the boy? And, always practical as she was, she would just say "he needed to go the doctor" and really say no more.

She witnessed a miracle, no... she PARTICIPATED in a miracle, and all she worried about was over watering the garden. LOL

But there was no way this was a mere coincidence. She said she got a strong 'impression'. (exactly how does one describe such events?) And that conservative old German Lutheran woman may not have gone around calling down fire from Heaven, but she did not tell lies!

I don't know if this is a 'gift', but it was something supernatural. And I think it would fall under the category of gifts.

She 'laid hands' on him... when picking him up and putting him into the car to drive to the doctors office! So no miraculous healing. Not even attempted. But everything we needed to take care of the situation was provided. And in a timely manner.

If it were up to me, I might trade gifts for escaping the ramifications of that ominous biblical passage. But it is not up to me.

God bless.
And that my friend says it all right there.
Jesus said we will lay hands on the sick and they will recover - not we will produce a flashy stage play and they will recover. The gifts of the Spirit are in a gentle word, not a shouting cacophony. It's in that bit of quiet company, not the forehead slap that pushes one to the ground. It's in that quiet 'aha' moment, not the 20 minute verbose interpretation of a 30 second 'prophecy'. Cessationists will reject the babble and act stupid crowd and because of them say the gifts have ceased. They will say what happened with your brother and great grandmother was merely God at work, and not what Paul had talked about. But that was exactly what Paul was talking about! The Gifts of the Spirit are intended to help us produce the fruit of the Spirit, not to amaze and astound us. Your great grandmother was given a gift of knowledge, acted on it in faith, and delivered a gift of healing to your brother. That's the most pure form of the gifts one can receive and be part of!

OP, this is what you want to seek out, not the circus act. Because like the widow who gave the penny, this family has demonstrated the true gifts far more than all the circus acts you'll find in church!




 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Those are doctrines for people who get past whining and complaining and pleading to God to remove suffering and utilize His problem solving devices(bible doctrine) to HANDLE the suffering.

What you are teaching, leaves the sheep WITHOUT the problem solving devices for their suffering. All the sheep will know to do is "pray for release." and run to some "spiritual leader" to heal them. Or just "know" that they are healed.

And they have no idea why they are not healed. And have no idea how to HANDLE it.
Their problem solving is Jesus. lol It is the Holy Spirit. It is our heavenly Father. He is their strength. To any problem that could possibly arise in a person's life the Lord has an answer and solution.

In regards to handling it, perseverance. Has God given you a promise? Hold dear to it, He is faithful.
 
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secondtimearound

Guest


And that my friend says it all right there.
Jesus said we will lay hands on the sick and they will recover - not we will produce a flashy stage play and they will recover. The gifts of the Spirit are in a gentle word, not a shouting cacophony. It's in that bit of quiet company, not the forehead slap that pushes one to the ground. It's in that quiet 'aha' moment, not the 20 minute verbose interpretation of a 30 second 'prophecy'. Cessationists will reject the babble and act stupid crowd and because of them say the gifts have ceased. They will say what happened with your brother and great grandmother was merely God at work, and not what Paul had talked about. But that was exactly what Paul was talking about! The Gifts of the Spirit are intended to help us produce the fruit of the Spirit, not to amaze and astound us. Your great grandmother was given a gift of knowledge, acted on it in faith, and delivered a gift of healing to your brother. That's the most pure form of the gifts one can receive and be part of!

OP, this is what you want to seek out, not the circus act. Because like the widow who gave the penny, this family has demonstrated the true gifts far more than all the circus acts you'll find in church!



Wow, thank you very much. I cannot express how much this has blessed me. You've added a new dimension to my own personal experience.

I totally agree about not seeking out the sensational. How unfortunate that some may be greatly harmed because of those antics. I bought into that too much initially too. Not because I thought it was right, but as a young believer, everything was so different. So many things seemed so strange and new to me. Why not that too? But over time I began to see through it all. Sure, I'd love to say I never fell for that stuff in the first place. Oh well.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Blessings my friend.
 
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Gr8grace

Guest
Their problem solving is Jesus. lol It is the Holy Spirit. It is our heavenly Father. He is their strength. To any problem that could possibly arise in a person's life the Lord has an answer and solution.

In regards to handling it, perseverance. Has God given you a promise? Hold dear to it, He is faithful.
All well and Good Ben. Sounds nice and is true. But it is not the first problem solving device in Gods plan or program.

The first is rebound. name and site any known sins or human good if we have them. the second is being filled with the Spirit and THEN faith rest.

What good do we do to someone that is really suffering and just say,"persevere brother or sister!" who hasn't heard that and who has been helped by that?

There are pragmatic steps in Gods plan for dealing with problems and suffering..............and just being healed is not for the vast majority. Even common sense and real world experience in Christianity proves this.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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I don't get this. Do you not now or ever "believe" God can heal you?
I meant that I don't believe you have to have a certain level of faith to be healed. OF COURSE I believe God can heal me. :) But I do not believe I need a specific amount of faith for it to happen.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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Okay, then, and then that plague in the wilderness when God wiped out a bunch of Israelites was caused by ____? (Fill in that blank, please, because I'm not getting that.)
​I'm talking about diseases such as cancer, diabetes, etc etc... God doesn't cause those. The plague wasn't a sickness, it was more of a pestilence..
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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(Now imagining how much pain is caused by a ladybug's leg punching someone in the nose, although I can see myself hurting my own nose trying to get the bug off my nose in a hurry.)

​This made me LOL... :)
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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Dear sister,

I (Natascha, Planitsoon's wife) read your post and I am so sorry for your painful journey. I was personally raised in a family where my father had a healing ministry. I have seen instant miracles, I have seen people being healed after lots of prayer and a long time struggle and I also have seen a lot of people that received a lot of prayer and not receive healing at all while we really needed to see them healed. I understand that it is very hard to believe in instant healing if you have never seen it for yourself. I have had cancer myself and have 5 kids to raise. They told me it went through my whole body. It was hard for me because I have seen instant miracles but also for me it did not happen. I felt my body weaken and I could not believe this was happening to me. I know what it is to go through tears and begging and prayer from others and see nothing happen. I know the loneliness and despair. Also I screamed and cried out to God although I saw many being healed through my own prayer. I had prophecy's and visions when I was young. And thought my faith in God was amazing. Then the time of pain came and I felt lonely and fearful. But although I truly suffered for more than a year and could barely move I knew that instant miracles happen but not for me on that moment. People came to me and said you don't have enough faith as if I needed to hear that. Bull.... that makes me always so angry and always has. I always say, if you have such a big faith than you pray for me. Instead of taking in out on the sufferer. I told a friend of mine you talk like your father the Devil. And I meant it and still do. How can you accuse a sufferer of being a victim. It always made me furious and especially when I was myself in that situation. If I pray for people, I take responsibility and if it does not work I know that I have to grow more. So hey I understand a little where you come from and I can see your heart and love that you don't blame God. I didn't blame Him ever either but I do blame the body of Christ who is not strong enough to protect there own. My husband found a natural way for me to get healed praise God. And we learned a lot in that time. The word WHY is still there but I believe that if others don't have the answer I'm going to look for it myself and I pray that God will give me the revelation and wisdom. I have seen people die that were not supposed to die and I have a lot of questions too, but the biggest problem with this all I believe is the body of Christ itself. We should be stronger and care more for another and those who can, should stand for those who can't. I pray with all of my heart looking back of how I felt and many others with you in times of pain and despair and torture. That we (I) will grow so strong one day that we can carry one another and will see the will of God manifest in our lives the way it should be. We are born in a war, on a planet full of sickness, weakness and pollution. And we need each other as a backbone to lean on. I would love to pray for you and see how much mercy together we can receive to see you healed like many others have. You and me are not less than all those others who did receive healing. In Gods eyes we are all the same. Jesus died for them just as much as he died for you. I can so feel you frustration and anger and don't worry I understand, God understand I'm sure He is frustrated too just like Jesus was with His disciples when He said how long do I have to bear with you when they could not heal the boy that was thrown in the fire. I was angry too, not that it took any of my love and honour for God away. Not at all. Like you I did never put it on God. Last week I saw healing through our prayer again in different people because I will not stop. Although again I'm suffering from something new. I will keep on fighting for others and myself and look up to the only one who really understands what I feel. My Jesus, I knew in those time and still now that He is there for me and always will be. Although I do not have all the answers I know they are there and one day here or in Heaven I will know them. I would love to pray for you ladybleu. With tears in my eyes and heart I write this letter and hope that you won't give up your hope on God. Because on the end of the day He is all we have. It has never been Gods will for you to be sick I do not believe that at all. But I do know that you need a breakthrough and the enemy hates your guts and it is him who is giving you a bad time. You are still standing and still hoping I'm sure somewhere in your heart that your break through will come and the enemy will be cast out of your life. Thank you so much for sharing your heart I hope that I have sown a little hope in there again and want to tell you I will stand in prayer with you if you want.

Natascha



​Thank you, Natascha.. I would enjoy that.. :)
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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I think of it like this
death is the absence is life and all life is from God (what we do with that life is our choice). We die and suffer from disease because of the consequence of sin. I believe God keeps us safe and protects us from lots of these consequences and protects us from the devils power to hurt us. But for reasons beyond our understanding God will allow the sin or the devil to affect us, (think of Job). I believe we are often healed before we even know we have the disease.