Holy Spirit - teaching and leading us into God
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Interesting point here. Sin is the action, the actually doing something. Sin in thought, I would class as the intended action but done by willful desire. It seems to get nitpicky , but sin is not there just because you think a random agressive thought against someone else. It is a way of picturing your emotions.
Imagine this. To understand a crime I have to imagine it in my mind. I could put myself in the persons shoes and step through the act. I can feel their feelings, and know why it happened. It does not mean I have commited this act.
So much of life is seeing things played out and then choosing what we are going to do. So our feelings of anger and frustration rise. The simple expression of this is murder of the person causing it, or so we think. It is like the mind saying, if you do this it will resolve the problem. Now if you say yes, that is right, I will do this, then that is sin. You have chosen to carry it out, not just go through the proposal. The mind is always throwing up proposals to you, some neutral some not.
Now bringing these thoughts to the Lord is saying, here I am, this is how I feel, help me is good. Now in reality peoples actions are never truly the cause of our reaction, but something within us that does not accept this behaviour and cannot cope with its implications. But we can become different, so the persons behaviour is not changing, but our understanding and reaction to it does.
Many have not learnt this simple reality, and end up saying their initial reaction is who they are, and that can never change.
But walking in Jesus changes everything. If a tree crushes your car, do you blame the tree or yourself for parking your car so near? Sin rules peoples lives, they are often chaotic forces running amuck, if you get in the way, they just beat you up. It is not personal, it is just chaos.
Jesus calls us to be pools of sanity, righteousness and light in this torn apart world.
You would not believe the forces that drive people, their insane desires to destroy and pull down others, built on greed, envy, fear. All we can change is our reaction to it, and show we are not caught up in this endless chaos.
In my innocence I often took peoples questions at face value, rather than seeing them sometimes as lies to try and test my understanding. Because I do not do this, I often fail to see people creating different approaches because I see no value in them. It sometimes helps "to be wise as serpents but as innocent as doves"
Now for Grace7x77 this real world does not exist, and engaging in righteousness is see as futile.
Imagine this. To understand a crime I have to imagine it in my mind. I could put myself in the persons shoes and step through the act. I can feel their feelings, and know why it happened. It does not mean I have commited this act.
So much of life is seeing things played out and then choosing what we are going to do. So our feelings of anger and frustration rise. The simple expression of this is murder of the person causing it, or so we think. It is like the mind saying, if you do this it will resolve the problem. Now if you say yes, that is right, I will do this, then that is sin. You have chosen to carry it out, not just go through the proposal. The mind is always throwing up proposals to you, some neutral some not.
Now bringing these thoughts to the Lord is saying, here I am, this is how I feel, help me is good. Now in reality peoples actions are never truly the cause of our reaction, but something within us that does not accept this behaviour and cannot cope with its implications. But we can become different, so the persons behaviour is not changing, but our understanding and reaction to it does.
Many have not learnt this simple reality, and end up saying their initial reaction is who they are, and that can never change.
But walking in Jesus changes everything. If a tree crushes your car, do you blame the tree or yourself for parking your car so near? Sin rules peoples lives, they are often chaotic forces running amuck, if you get in the way, they just beat you up. It is not personal, it is just chaos.
Jesus calls us to be pools of sanity, righteousness and light in this torn apart world.
You would not believe the forces that drive people, their insane desires to destroy and pull down others, built on greed, envy, fear. All we can change is our reaction to it, and show we are not caught up in this endless chaos.
In my innocence I often took peoples questions at face value, rather than seeing them sometimes as lies to try and test my understanding. Because I do not do this, I often fail to see people creating different approaches because I see no value in them. It sometimes helps "to be wise as serpents but as innocent as doves"
Now for Grace7x77 this real world does not exist, and engaging in righteousness is see as futile.
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I was studying the word conscience in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament and read this.
f. Gnosticism offers a radical solution to the conflict of conscience. It is true that instances are very sparse. But the basic dualistic solution involves a full separation between the two egos. The true I of the Gnostic is identical with the divine world of light, while the other I belongs to the chaotic world and is thus to be abandoned. In the final analysis, then, there is no bad conscience for the Gnostic. Naturally this opens the door not merely to asceticism but also to libertinism.
I will show you where what you say does not quite match what Jesus said.
You say sin is the outward action, and you aren't wrong there.
But sin is also the inward action, as Jesus said, if you have anger in your heart, you have ALREADY murdered. If you think the thought, you have ALREADY committed adultery.
It is possible to murder inwardly, but not outwardly.
But it is NEVER possible to murder outwardly unless you first did it inwardly.
So where did the sin originate? The inside of the cup or the outside?
You say sin is the outward action, and you aren't wrong there.
But sin is also the inward action, as Jesus said, if you have anger in your heart, you have ALREADY murdered. If you think the thought, you have ALREADY committed adultery.
It is possible to murder inwardly, but not outwardly.
But it is NEVER possible to murder outwardly unless you first did it inwardly.
So where did the sin originate? The inside of the cup or the outside?
P
You are framing sin in singular dimension of the old covenant.
Jesus put the weight on the thought life.
"..... And Jesus knowing their thoughts..."
"....beware of the scribes who try to appear gaunt in the marketplace as if they fast often..."
"....you Pharisees wash the hands not knowing what it is that defiled.."
In a sold out believer,the outward sins barely come into the picture.
It is the thought life that we would be forcing into submission.
If outward sin of breaking the law is our main concern,we haven't much depth or intimacy in our walk with Jesus.
Jesus put the weight on the thought life.
"..... And Jesus knowing their thoughts..."
"....beware of the scribes who try to appear gaunt in the marketplace as if they fast often..."
"....you Pharisees wash the hands not knowing what it is that defiled.."
In a sold out believer,the outward sins barely come into the picture.
It is the thought life that we would be forcing into submission.
If outward sin of breaking the law is our main concern,we haven't much depth or intimacy in our walk with Jesus.
I think we have to be careful. We are not a simple being with a defined boundary between our systems of thought, the unconscious mind and what we regard as ourselves. There are inbuilt reactions to our environment, fear, anger, laughter, hunger, cold etc. In our thoughts, ideas, approaches, inclinations can appear which we do not choose but are part of us.
Now a boundary point has to be agreed between what we choose to do, and what our systems are presenting towards us.
Now the desire is we choose internally and externally to follow the Lord and love. There is an area of dispute, between what our flesh or desires would lead us to, and what we desire in the Lord to do. Sin springs from choosing the carnal desires over the spiritual.
Now what we choose to dwell on inside, our fantasy life, what we regard as ok is important.
There is though a difference between feeling attraction to an inappropriate partner and acting on it.
Being human we will be attracted to different people in different ways, but these change depending on what we dwell on.
One problem within Islamic society is they cannot define a difference between how you react physically from what you choose to do with it. They define themselves by their intial response rather than understanding it changes with understanding and context.
Jesus is saying, you will be made angry by behaviour, but it is wrong to be angry at the person involved.
Dealing with how you respond to stimulus in the world is part of purity within. The first step is admitting what you do respond to and finding out why. If this is not possible we would be always victims of our biology and not be free or have a choice. I am sure you all have done this in your own lives, when a feeling comes upon you, but you bring it into control.
Now a boundary point has to be agreed between what we choose to do, and what our systems are presenting towards us.
Now the desire is we choose internally and externally to follow the Lord and love. There is an area of dispute, between what our flesh or desires would lead us to, and what we desire in the Lord to do. Sin springs from choosing the carnal desires over the spiritual.
Now what we choose to dwell on inside, our fantasy life, what we regard as ok is important.
There is though a difference between feeling attraction to an inappropriate partner and acting on it.
Being human we will be attracted to different people in different ways, but these change depending on what we dwell on.
One problem within Islamic society is they cannot define a difference between how you react physically from what you choose to do with it. They define themselves by their intial response rather than understanding it changes with understanding and context.
Jesus is saying, you will be made angry by behaviour, but it is wrong to be angry at the person involved.
Dealing with how you respond to stimulus in the world is part of purity within. The first step is admitting what you do respond to and finding out why. If this is not possible we would be always victims of our biology and not be free or have a choice. I am sure you all have done this in your own lives, when a feeling comes upon you, but you bring it into control.
It appears heaven is now and will be forever full of those pesky gnostics because they don't have a bad conscience.....those in heaven have a good mind set because their minds are re-newed to who they are in Christ and what He has accomplished for us...
......it's best to go by what the word says that Jesus has done in His finished work...if it says we are to have an evil conscience sprinkled clean with His blood...and to have our conscience once purged.. then we are to have no more consciousness of sins.
Again...sigh...this is not a licence to sin....it's a matter of focusing on the reality of Christ's work....if we sin...we run to our Father and deal with Him about it....Jesus is our righteous Advocate interceding for us........it's just a reality of the majestic and complete work our Lord Jesus did on our behalf.
I heard this statement one time that stuck with me.
We can say that satan has no part in us. Our history declares the effectiveness of the blood of Jesus. Anytime we visit the events of our past apart from the blood of Jesus - we visit a lie because in God's eyes it no longer exists. Our history shouts the effectiveness of the blood of Jesus.
That is why we have a good and pure conscience before God now...it's all because of what Jesus has done for us! He's awesome and mighty to save! We have a great salvation in Him.
......it's best to go by what the word says that Jesus has done in His finished work...if it says we are to have an evil conscience sprinkled clean with His blood...and to have our conscience once purged.. then we are to have no more consciousness of sins.
Again...sigh...this is not a licence to sin....it's a matter of focusing on the reality of Christ's work....if we sin...we run to our Father and deal with Him about it....Jesus is our righteous Advocate interceding for us........it's just a reality of the majestic and complete work our Lord Jesus did on our behalf.
I heard this statement one time that stuck with me.
We can say that satan has no part in us. Our history declares the effectiveness of the blood of Jesus. Anytime we visit the events of our past apart from the blood of Jesus - we visit a lie because in God's eyes it no longer exists. Our history shouts the effectiveness of the blood of Jesus.
That is why we have a good and pure conscience before God now...it's all because of what Jesus has done for us! He's awesome and mighty to save! We have a great salvation in Him.
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K
Actually you have misrepresented what Jesus was saying, and you did that by placing the word anger where it says hate !!!
Hate and anger are not the same thing.............
Apostle Paul makes it known in Ephesians 4:26 that we can get angry and it not be sin, hatred on the other hand is a feeling that has already rose within us to want the actual physical wrongful action carried out.
Also Jesus said those who "lust in the heart" has already committed adultery, lust is speaking on feelings, meaning the thought alone is not sin. It only becomes sin when feelings get involved, as Paul again says we can bring all thoughts in subjection to the way of Christ before they become sin.
Hate and anger are not the same thing.............
Apostle Paul makes it known in Ephesians 4:26 that we can get angry and it not be sin, hatred on the other hand is a feeling that has already rose within us to want the actual physical wrongful action carried out.
Also Jesus said those who "lust in the heart" has already committed adultery, lust is speaking on feelings, meaning the thought alone is not sin. It only becomes sin when feelings get involved, as Paul again says we can bring all thoughts in subjection to the way of Christ before they become sin.