How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[posthuman]

How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]?

o friend, the bloodprice was paid!

this is why He sent His Son, His perfect image enfleshed - to take upon Himself the penalty of sin, so that you could be reconciled to Him by looking for His mercy, believing on His propitiation.

it is the gospel; the redemption of the ungodly by faith in Jesus Christ and His finished atoning work!

joy has come! risen with the Son!

 

[Roberth]

Ezekiel is just saying that a son isn't responsible for his fathers sin and vice-versa. In other words, we are all responsible for our own sins. So even if a father wanted to take responsibility for his sons sins, the fathers sacrifice would not be acceptable, because he too was guilty of breaking the law and condemned to death by the law.

But Ezekiel doesn't state that both are sinners in his example.

Ez 18:19 ....When the son has done what is lawful and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. 20 The person who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own.

What the prophet is saying is that righteousness can't be transferred from the innocent to the guilty. Therefore Christ couldn't die for our sins because He isn't the sinner. Christ's death instead of our death doesn't legally answer the justice of the law!

So the question remains: How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

 

[laymen]

But the law condemns sinners. It demands their death. Christ wasn't a sinner, so how could His death satisfy the broken law?

 

[Roberth]

....the women caught in adultery the law said that she must be stoned and instead JESUS had mercy on her.

Yes, you are right...therefore He legally satisfied the demands of the justice of His own law. How?

 

[laymen]

Sorry here is the rest. ran out of room.

 

[Roberth]

Jesus laid down His life on His own accord. Thus the law was not broken and God's integrity is intact.

Jesus is God....He cannot die. He is immortal. "Only God hath immortality". God isn't the one who sinned...we are the sinners. No law can condemn a innocent man instead of the guilty. No law, not even God's law. Again, how did Christ legally save us from the justice of His law. No one has answered the question, yet.

 

[passing_through]

The Sin of the whole world was laid on Jesus, Jesus was separated from God on our account, God couldn't look on Jesus because, for the purpose of atonement, he became sin who knew no sin, somehow, some where, God saw the travail (spl?) of Jesus soul and was eternally satisfied, Sin was judged, debt paid.

 

[Roberth]

The Sin of the whole world was laid on Jesus....

That's a metaphor that explains a truth. Sins aren't objects to be laid on someone. Again, that doesn't answer the question.

 

[posthuman]

What the prophet is saying is that righteousness can't be transferred from the innocent to the guilty. Therefore Christ couldn't die for our sins because He isn't the sinner. Christ's death instead of our death doesn't legally answer the justice of the law!

in Christ, we die also, so that we may be raised up again with Him. i am living dead - the sinner in me is crucified, and a new man lives. through Christ we pass from death into life, the flesh fully condemned by the law, and the spirit fully justified by His grace.

even under the law, sins of the unrighteous were forgiven through the shedding of a spotless animal's blood. as in Egypt, the Lord looked over the house which was marked by blood. this was His mercy, accepting atonement and forgiving on the basis of faith and obedience to His statute. now, our passover Lamb is slain, and the Almighty watches over the hearts of those who are sprinkled with that blood, so that the angel that brings death passes by.

it wasn't the blood of goats and bulls that He thirsted for, but righteousness. and it wasn't the blood that satisfied Him, but obedience, and His faithfulness to His own promise to show forgiving kindness, according to His covenant. but as a like picture, the innocence of the slain lamb was transferred to the guilty, and acceptable under the law. so too, Christ's righteousness is attributed to those who accept Him as their atonement. this fulfills the law; it doesn't contradict it.

may He open your eyes to see, that you might share our joy, and also praise Him as we do!

 

[Roberth]

laymen,

The gospel is not what "we" do....That is legalism. The gospel is what Christ did 2000 years ago. The gospel is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ as the Son of Man.

 

[posthuman]

Yes, you are right...therefore He legally satisfied the demands of the justice of His own law. How?

the weightier matters of the law are mercy and compassion. its purpose isn't mere condemnation.

 

[posthuman]

The gospel is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ as the Son of Man.

and what is the purpose of that birth, life, death and resurrection? do you know it?

 

[posthuman]

No law can condemn a innocent man instead of the guilty.

in the Torah, an innocent goat or a dove or a lamb was slain, and when Jah looked down on the altar and saw the blood, He looked over the sin of the ungodly, who trusted in His faithfulness to accept this sacrifice as atonement for sin.

forgiveness of sin, and justification before God has always been according to His mercy, even under the law.

 

[Roberth]

in Christ, we die also, so that we may be raised up again with Him.

Okay, I like where you are going, only your verb tenses are incorrect. The Bible says it like this:

"our old self was crucified with him" Rom 6:6 " One died for all, then all died" 2 Cor 5:14

Notice that our old self was (past tense) crucified with Christ. Also notice that when One died, all died in Him.

As to being raised with Him, notice the following:

Eph 2:5....even when we were dead in our transgressions (sinners), (God) made us alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved, 6 and raised us up with Him (past tense), and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus


Col 1:13 For He (God the Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins....


According to Paul our new life (our glorified, sinless life) has already been transferred to heaven "in Christ"!

 

[Roberth]

in the Torah, an innocent goat or a dove or a lamb was slain,....

Yes, and that was symbolic. Paul states, "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins" (Heb 10:4)

This, therefore, doesn't explain how Christ legally saved us in Himself and yet satisfied His law that condemns us.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Yes, you are right...therefore He legally satisfied the demands of the justice of His own law. How?

By being the atonement for sin on our behalf.The lamb of GOD(perfect lamb)that took away the sins of the world and his sacrifice was accepted now under Grace for those that believe in the WORD of GOD,when GOD looks at us he sees the blood of JESUS.

 

[posthuman]

in re: verb tense -- i was speaking as though to one outside looking in, of the Church as an entity. the gospel is still preached, and sinners still come to knowledge of God - so those being brought in still die in Him, to be raised with Him.

but yes, like you say, speaking as though to brothers and sisters in Christ, and for ourselves, this has happened - as Paul writes, speaking to those who already believe, "consider yourselves dead to sin & alive to God" (Romans 6:11) - past tense, not "crucify yourselves" but "take up your cross" - having been crucified, and in spirit, having been raised up and set in heavenly places, while the flesh & all creation awaits its redemption on that day.

yes

Yes, and that was symbolic. Paul states, "For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins" (Heb 10:4)

yes, a symbol, an obedient symbol, yet a symbol, pointing to Christ. because forgiveness of sin, even under the law, is the Lord's mercy - not as a wage earned.
He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion.

 

[Roberth]

the weightier matters of the law are mercy and compassion. its purpose isn't mere condemnation.

The law demands justice, not compassion. Here's Paul:

Gal 3:10 ... "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM"

If you fail, in one point, the law curses you by placing you in death row awaiting the judgment. The law is not a friend to the sinner.

Here's what Paul says of the law: "the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones" 2 cor 3:7

 

[Roberth]

.... the gospel is still preached, and sinners still come to knowledge of God - so those being brought in still die in Him, to be raised with Him.

No, absolutely not....That's not the gospel. Our death in Christ occurred over 2000 years ago when He, as the Son of Man, died on the cross. Therefore all men have been justified unto life in the doing and dying of Christ (see Rom 5:18), but yet not all men will receive this truth (the gospel). For those who reject the gospel they remain under law. In the judgment the law will condemn the unbeliever to eternal damnation (goodbye to life forever).

 

[posthuman]

i have to go to sleep now. maybe this will help you see where i'm coming from:

And the word of the Lord came to Zechariah, saying,
“Thus says the Lord of hosts, Render true judgments, show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor, and let none of you devise evil against another in your heart.”
(Zechariah 7:8-10)

the weightier matters of the law:
justice and mercy and faithfulness.
(Matthew 23:23)

Let your compassion come to me that I may live,
for your law is my delight.
(Psalm 119:77) ​