How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?
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posthuman;2312825,
I understand your point, but we need to look at your quotes in their context.
Nevertheless, the law clearly condemns sinners:
Ro 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 2:12 all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
The law demands perfection, period. Failure brings judgment, i.e., condemnation.
So I guess I need to ask another question: From what did Christ come to save us?
I understand your point, but we need to look at your quotes in their context.
Nevertheless, the law clearly condemns sinners:
Ro 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 2:12 all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
The law demands perfection, period. Failure brings judgment, i.e., condemnation.
So I guess I need to ask another question: From what did Christ come to save us?
P
Romans 8 31-35
31) what shall we say to these things ? If God is for us who can be against us? 32) He who did not spare his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33) Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It Is GOD who JUSTIFIES.34) Who is he who condemns? It Is Christ who died, yes, who is risen,who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35) Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ?
31) what shall we say to these things ? If God is for us who can be against us? 32) He who did not spare his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33) Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It Is GOD who JUSTIFIES.34) Who is he who condemns? It Is Christ who died, yes, who is risen,who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35) Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ?
I think I understand what you're getting at. If so, I agree, your question has not been answered (at least to the point I started drafting this response!). However...
First, I think you have slightly misconstrued the Ezekiel passage, "the law of God clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty." That's a bit of a narrow and wooden interpretation, and seems to disregard the immediate context.
The context of the whole chapter clearly shows that God is speaking about humans. The proverb quoted in verse 2 is not part of the biblical Proverbs; it is a saying of man, which seems to implicate God as a wrongful judge of men, who suffer for the sins of their parents. God is explaining, through Ezekiel, that He does not judge men in this way. He emphasizes His own righteous judgement, and calls all men to repent of their own sins.
Second, I think the way you put it, "clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty", is simply incorrect. This passage does not actually "prohibit" an innocent man dying for the guilty (either 'on behalf of' or 'in place of'). That phrase, and meaning, just are not there. Again, the passage is declaring that God's judgement is righteous, against man's claims that it isn't (v. 25).
I believe your question is a good one, in that you see something which doesn't make sense to you, and you're willing to ask hard questions about it. Kudos for that. I also believe that, as asked, there isn't an adequate answer for your question, because it is founded on a wrong interpretation of the Ezekiel passage.
I have found that the more my beliefs about God line up with Who He actually is, the more clearly I see Him. For example, I am convinced that God is good, so even though some scriptural passages make God look nasty, I try to look beyond the surface and see how God is actually being good, sometimes in "higher ways" (Isaiah 55:9).
First, I think you have slightly misconstrued the Ezekiel passage, "the law of God clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty." That's a bit of a narrow and wooden interpretation, and seems to disregard the immediate context.
The context of the whole chapter clearly shows that God is speaking about humans. The proverb quoted in verse 2 is not part of the biblical Proverbs; it is a saying of man, which seems to implicate God as a wrongful judge of men, who suffer for the sins of their parents. God is explaining, through Ezekiel, that He does not judge men in this way. He emphasizes His own righteous judgement, and calls all men to repent of their own sins.
Second, I think the way you put it, "clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty", is simply incorrect. This passage does not actually "prohibit" an innocent man dying for the guilty (either 'on behalf of' or 'in place of'). That phrase, and meaning, just are not there. Again, the passage is declaring that God's judgement is righteous, against man's claims that it isn't (v. 25).
I believe your question is a good one, in that you see something which doesn't make sense to you, and you're willing to ask hard questions about it. Kudos for that. I also believe that, as asked, there isn't an adequate answer for your question, because it is founded on a wrong interpretation of the Ezekiel passage.
I have found that the more my beliefs about God line up with Who He actually is, the more clearly I see Him. For example, I am convinced that God is good, so even though some scriptural passages make God look nasty, I try to look beyond the surface and see how God is actually being good, sometimes in "higher ways" (Isaiah 55:9).
Answer: Gal 4: 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeemthose who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Christ came to save or redeem sinners from under His law that justly condemns them to eternal damnation. We are told the curse of the law is the 2nd death, i.e., the lake of fire.
Most Christians say Christ came to save us from hell, but this is backwards. Christ came to save sinners, who have transgressed His law, from the curse of the law or its penalty, i.e., hell (the lake of fire).
Christ came to save or redeem sinners from under His law that justly condemns them to eternal damnation. We are told the curse of the law is the 2nd death, i.e., the lake of fire.
Most Christians say Christ came to save us from hell, but this is backwards. Christ came to save sinners, who have transgressed His law, from the curse of the law or its penalty, i.e., hell (the lake of fire).
Yes, you are right, but....if humans are to be just then God even more.....
God law's demands the death of the sinner. Christ wasn't a sinner. The law can only condemn sinners, not the righteous. If the law condemned Christ, who was perfect, then the law is unjust and God's government a lie.
Now of course I do not believe that God condemned Christ for our sins. That's unjust. So the question is still open....
God law's demands the death of the sinner. Christ wasn't a sinner. The law can only condemn sinners, not the righteous. If the law condemned Christ, who was perfect, then the law is unjust and God's government a lie.
Now of course I do not believe that God condemned Christ for our sins. That's unjust. So the question is still open....
You have to understand that dominion of the earth was given to man and man gave it to satin and the only way for man to have eternal life was to fulfill the law perfectly and JESUS although he was GOD he was also man and he fulfilled all the law and said all power in heaven and earth belongs to me.
Before he left he once again made it available to those who believe in the WORD of GOD and we have access to this Grace through Faith.
Before he left he once again made it available to those who believe in the WORD of GOD and we have access to this Grace through Faith.
Well, let me give all of you something to think on....I won't make comments for now, just 3 texts:
Romans 6:6 "Our old life was crucified with Christ so that our bodies indwelt with sin might be destroyed"
Romans 7:4 "Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the law in the body of Christ....."
Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound....
Romans 6:6 "Our old life was crucified with Christ so that our bodies indwelt with sin might be destroyed"
Romans 7:4 "Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the law in the body of Christ....."
Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound....
Not sure who these "most Christians" are (maybe people in your church?) but this Christian's immediate response was that the very name of Jesus means salvation -and from our sins!
"For he shall save his people from their sins." Matt 1:21
As for the answer to your OP, you posted a lot from Romans 6. Keep reading the chapter, and you will find the answer.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
In one sense, we sinful humans still die for our sins... in the flesh. In another, we consider ourselves dead to sin. Also, in a sense, sin is covered with blood, and the exact identity of the blood is, in a sense, not so critical (in another sense it is though). So the blood of bulls and goats was enough for a time to protect Israel from God's righteous wrath, but in reality never did take away sin. Only human blood could truly take away sin. Only righteous blood.... The procedures for sacrifice in Leviticus discuss this... the sins of the nation are "put onto" the sacrificial lamb, and "taken away" by the scapegoat. There are several sermons in that sentence! 
The law did not condemn Christ, nor did "God condemn Christ" as you say. Rather, God's law demands punishment (death) for sin. God recognized that sinful humanity could not redeem itself, ever. So God "provided himself a lamb" (Gen. 22:8). The wording there is subtle but I believe it was prophetic. Christ, who is God, took our punishment by His own choice, not by the condemnation of His Father, nor by the condemnation of the Law. I'm not sure I can put this any better, but I can state it with absolute confidence: justice was served, and it was served justly.
The law did not condemn Christ, nor did "God condemn Christ" as you say. Rather, God's law demands punishment (death) for sin. God recognized that sinful humanity could not redeem itself, ever. So God "provided himself a lamb" (Gen. 22:8). The wording there is subtle but I believe it was prophetic. Christ, who is God, took our punishment by His own choice, not by the condemnation of His Father, nor by the condemnation of the Law. I'm not sure I can put this any better, but I can state it with absolute confidence: justice was served, and it was served justly.
Is this your belief, or point of argument?
Jesus was God in the flesh, and flesh is subject to death.
Jesus came to earth to die...for our sins.
Yes, Jesus isn't the one who sinned, that's why shedding of his blood was, to the Father, an acceptable atonement for our sins.
He presented himself to the Father as a perfect sacrificial Lamb.
All the previously sacrificed animals did not bring atonement.
Jesus fulfilled the Law.
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. [Heb 9:22]
The Law was not God's provision for salvation. Jesus was!
The Law was just a shadow. Jesus fulfilled it (without breaking it) and thus made it obsolete.
The Law was not the real thing. Jesus is!
Dear OP. You seem to be (intentionally) suspended in Mosaic times.
Please move on!!!!
Feel the grace of Jesus!!!
Please do not use the "shadow" to judge the reality (i.e. Jesus).
Jesus was God in the flesh, and flesh is subject to death.
Jesus came to earth to die...for our sins.
Yes, Jesus isn't the one who sinned, that's why shedding of his blood was, to the Father, an acceptable atonement for our sins.
He presented himself to the Father as a perfect sacrificial Lamb.
All the previously sacrificed animals did not bring atonement.
Jesus fulfilled the Law.
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. [Heb 9:22]
The Law was not God's provision for salvation. Jesus was!
The Law was just a shadow. Jesus fulfilled it (without breaking it) and thus made it obsolete.
The Law was not the real thing. Jesus is!
Dear OP. You seem to be (intentionally) suspended in Mosaic times.
Please move on!!!!
Feel the grace of Jesus!!!
Please do not use the "shadow" to judge the reality (i.e. Jesus).