How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[senzi]

This could be a long discussion lol. So verse six says we will no longer be slaves of sin. If we move on to verse 17 paul states though the romans used to be slaves to sin they wholeheartedly followed the pattern of teaching they eere given(grace) they have been set free feom sin and have become slaves of righteousness, in verse 19 paul states this leads to holiness. So being set free from being a slave of sin to being a sla e of righteousness does not mean sinless perfection.
If you move on to gal 2:16&17 we see this crossing over feom one state to the other is not by works of the law(striving to obey the law) but it is achieved by faith in christ. It takes time!!! Something those who only look at a few literal statements in s ripture fail to note
I better stop there lol

 

[onlinebuddy]

I agree with senzi's answer about what the "old life" is.

Roberth,
I know you will talk about our old Adamic condition, right? Go ahead; I'm listening.
...but logging off for the moment. Will return later.

 

[senzi]

So we too ha e put our faith in christ jesus that we might be justified by faith in christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
If whle we see to be justified in christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that christ promotes sin? Absolutely not, if I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker gal2:16&17
What justification is paul speaking of for he is speaking of a justification that clearly takes time. The moment you accept christ as your saviour you are justified in Gods sight for heaven. If you died the next day you would be accepted by God for heaven.
The justification paul is speaking of is being changwd from slaves of sin when we come to christ into slaves of righteousness leading to holiness. For we cannot eemain dominated by sin(being slaves of sin) but as paul says:
When we were yet without strength christ died for the ungodly rom5:6
We are weak, helpless babes in the faith when we come to christ. Much sin we can immediatley cease ouselves for we are not its slave, but what of the rest? What of the sin rhat may have dimibated our lives for years if not decades, how is this to be dealt with by us who are as yet weak and without strength? Paul tells us we seek to be justified in this sense by faith inchrist not striving in ourselves toobey the law(we do the woek to remove the sin) we trust in christ to cross over from ine state to the other
Why does paul ask the question does christ promote sin? Because while you are teusting cheist to get you to where you need to be it takes time. During this time if trusting jesus it will be evident youare a sinner. How will that look to someone who does not understand the gospel? Here before them is someone rejoicing in bei g saved while having evident sin in their life. Howe er, though the new convert rejoices in their salvation they hate the sin rhat still binds them for they have been born again. Bu they are still entitled to rejoice despite such imperfections otherwise they must go around in sackclith and ashes until they are as pure as the driven snow!
Immediatly after paul asks the question he answers it.
Absolutely not! If iI rebuild what iI have destroyed iI peove i am a lawbreaker. What has oaul cobstantly sought to destroy? A law of righteousness_striving to obey the law to be justified vefore God. Therefore if he rebuilt what he has sought to destroy he wiuld fail in his efforts and simy prove he was a lawbreaker
These verses from galatians, in my view show us so much as to hiw we must set out on the christian walk

 

[senzi]

My apologies for bad spelling mistakes, but it is so hard using my mobile to write. Please bear with me

 

[Roberth]

.... verse six says we will no longer be slaves of sin....being set free from being a slave of sin to being a sla e of righteousness does not mean sinless perfection.l

Paul is discussing two things in Romans chapter 6:

a] The gospel, that which saves and

b] the fruits of the gospel, that which demonstrates.



6:3 ...Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Baptism is a symbol of a greater reality. It is a public confession declaring our union by faith to Christ and Him crucified. This means His death to sin becomes our death to sin; His burial becomes our burial and, just as God raised Christ up with a glorified, sinless humanity, we too must allow that same power, now dwelling in us through the Holy Spirit, to control us in newness of life.

Thus far Romans 6:3,4 is dealing with "the fruits of the gospel".

Next I'll discuss Romans 6:5-11

 

[BradC]

Yes, but that doesn't answer my question: How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? I ask this because the law of God clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty.

God's states, through Ezekiel, that an innocent, sinless man such as Christ, can't die for sinners who have broken His law. Why? Jesus isn't the sinner, we are, and the law condemns sinners, not Christ the sinless one.

Christ was the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes (Rom 10:4). We are sinners not only because of the law but through conception, being born into sin through Adam who transgressed. Before the law came sin was in the world but not imputed (Rom 5:13).

Rom 5:12-18
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

God made justification of sin a gift of grace through his Son for ungodly sinners. Jesus had to become sin literally, who knew no sin (or never sinned) that we might be justified to receive a free gift of imputed righteousness with no works of the law through the flesh (Gal 2:16). Our sin was transferred to him and he became the sacrificial lamb (our scapegoat) who bore our sins upon his own body (Is 53:6, 1 Pt 2:24, 3:8, 2 Cor 5:21, Heb 9:28). When all our ungodly sin was transferred to his body on the cross, he was no more innocent and was at that moment forsaken by God in his humanity because of our sin (Ps 22:1, Mt 27:46).

Rom 4:22-25
22 And therefore it was imputed to him (Abraham) for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[Roberth]

Jesus had to become sin literally, who knew no sin (or never sinned)...Our sin was transferred to him and he became the sacrificial lamb (our scapegoat) who bore our sins upon his own body.

What do you mean that Jesus literally became sin? It sounds like your position makes Him a sinner.

 

[Mitspa]

Of course we can read on to chapter 7 ..that explains that legalism (law) actually produces sinful passions..that dying to the (ten commandments) law we die to sins power.

 

[Mitspa]

What do you mean that Jesus literally became sin? It sounds like your position makes Him a sinner.

That's exactly what the scripture says "He became sin" who knew no sin .

 

[senzi]

Of course we can read on to chapter 7 ..that explains that legalism (law) actually produces sinful passions..that dying to the (ten commandments) law we die to sins power.

Now that is getting to the core truth explained in verses 4_11. It is wonderful to read your post
God bless

 

[senzi]

For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law,(of righteousness) but under grace rom6:14

 

[Roberth]

That's exactly what the scripture says "He became sin" who knew no sin .

Okay, but we can't say Christ was a sinner, for He never sinned.

So in what sense was He made sin?

The New Testament teaches that at the incarnation Jesus Christ became, was made, shared, what we are, but what we are did not belong to him by native right. We must never ever teach that Christ HAD a sinful nature. That would be heresy. That would be making Him altogether like us. He ASSUMED our sinful nature. He TOOK upon Himself what belongs to us, not to Him.

 

[Roberth]

Of course we can read on to chapter 7 ..that explains that legalism (law) actually produces sinful passions..that dying to the (ten commandments) law we die to sins power.

But Paul asks the question: "Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law." (Rom 7:7)


So we can't equate the law with sin.


The problem is in our nature. We are naturally rebellious, therefore our "sinful passions... (are) aroused by the law" (see verse 5). The law says "don't do this or die" and this prompts our natures to rebel.

 

[Mitspa]

But Paul asks the question: "Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law." (Rom 7:7)


So we can't equate the law with sin.


The problem is in our nature. We are naturally rebellious, therefore our "sinful passions... (are) aroused by the law" (see verse 5). The law says "don't do this or die" and this prompts our natures to rebel.

Of course..who is calling the law sin? Not me! but it is the strength of sin.

 

[senzi]

The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin.
Hence paul states sinful passions are aroused in us by the law if we live under it

 

[Mitspa]

Okay, but we can't say Christ was a sinner, for He never sinned.

So in what sense was He made sin?

The New Testament teaches that at the incarnation Jesus Christ became, was made, shared, what we are, but what we are did not belong to him by native right. We must never ever teach that Christ HAD a sinful nature. That would be heresy. That would be making Him altogether like us. He ASSUMED our sinful nature. He TOOK upon Himself what belongs to us, not to Him.

You seem to have a habit of ignoring what people are saying that is a direct quote of scripture and try to make a point based on what others are not saying? No one is teaching Christ had a sin nature...that I have seen...so no need for you to make it a issue.

 

[Mitspa]

The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin.
Hence paul states sinful passions are aroused in us by the law if we live under it

Interesting...or the flesh itself is rebellious and legalism is dependent upon the flesh which cannot obey...

 

[Roberth]

Paul is discussing two things in Romans chapter 6:

a] The gospel, that which saves and

b] the fruits of the gospel, that which demonstrates.



6:3 ...Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Baptism is a symbol of a greater reality. It is a public confession declaring our union by faith to Christ and Him crucified. This means His death to sin becomes our death to sin; His burial becomes our burial and, just as God raised Christ up with a glorified, sinless humanity, we too must allow that same power, now dwelling in us through the Holy Spirit, to control us in newness of life.

Thus far Romans 6:3,4 is dealing with "the fruits of the gospel".

Next I'll discuss Romans 6:5-11

Romans 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

Again, Paul is dealing with "the fruits of the gospel".

6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin,

Here Paul is stating a historical fact. He is not writing of "the fruits of the gospel" (sanctification), but rather the gospel itself.

Paul is writing to the Roman believers. Based on the gospel, Paul states, "we know that our old self was crucified with (Christ)". Why? So that the body of sin would be done away with.

1] What is "our old self"?

2] What is "the body of sin"?

I'll give my answers and then later prove them from the Bible.

Answer to # 1: Our old self is the life we received from Adam. All of us share his fallen life, indwelt with iniquity (our bent-to-self). Theologians call this "our corporate fallen life".

Answer to # 2: "The body of sin" refers to our humanity indwelt with iniquity. The fact that we have "indwelling sin" (see Romans 7:17,18) means that our bodies are permeated with the love of self.

verse 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

"In Christ" we have a new creation that literally died to sin. In Him we are without sin, blameless before the throne of God. Again, this refers to the gospel, not the fruits of the gospel.

More later....

 

[Roberth]

Interesting...or the flesh itself is rebellious and legalism is dependent upon the flesh which cannot obey...

I believe so...

 

[Roberth]

No one is teaching Christ had a sin nature..

Okay.......