How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

senzi · Oct 18, 2015

They are not standing on a righteousness of faith in christ, but one of obedience to the law.[/QUOTE?When struggling with sin, how can one stand on a righteousness of faith in Christ.

I am sorry, but there is only one way I can properly answer you and do you justice in reply. If you want the answer to your question, please read this response, then the next one I will put up. They answer your question

Don’t try to be good enough

If I asked a professional poker player to have a game of poker with me for a ten pence
stake, he might oblige, but there wouldn’t be any excitement in the game for him, would there? The stake is too small. If the following week he was playing a game in Las Vegas and there was a million dollars on the table, however, he’d be greatly excited then, wouldn’t he? The stakes would have his heart pounding I am sure. It is not possible to do anything that involves high stakes without great excitement surging through the individual’s body, is it?
Many take up sports that have an element of risk or danger in them so they may experience the thrill in doing so. Some jump off bridges from great heights, with ropes securely fastened to their bodies at one end, and to the bridge at the other, with enough slack to send them hurtling hundreds of feet toward the ground below. When the slack is exhausted, they come to a juddering halt, and dangle in the air for a short time, exhilarated by the thrill of the event. So it is fair to say the higher the risk involved in an activity, the greater the excitement it causes in the individual. The higher the stake a person plays for, the more the adrenalin flows.
There is one thing that dwarfs all others when it comes to battling for high stakes and taking the greatest risks, however, and that is when you believe eternal life is at stake. After all, what higher stake could a person play for than eternal life, and what activity could carry more risk than one that could send you to hell? People of faith know more than anyone of excitement being stirred in them, for they are playing for the highest stakes of all − and it isn’t a game! So what does the excitement focus on during this highest of all stakes battle? It must focus on what decides the outcome of it, for therein lies the risk and danger.
Now suppose a young man in his late teens goes to a church service one night and becomes a Christian. He believes God has wiped the slate clean because He has forgiven any sin in his life and is, therefore, spotless in God’s sight because Jesus died for his sins. This young man comes from a loving, secure home. He has hardly drunk, he has never smoked or used bad language, and he has not as yet had a serious girlfriend. Such a person you may think is off to a flying start as a Christian because he doesn’t have what people often consider the “taboo” sins that must cease in order for a person to attain Heaven.
So he sets out on the Christian walk. He is convicted to live his life as a Christian must, for the law has been put on his heart, and he is determined to follow his heart’s desire. The next day he goes out with some friends. They stop in a cafe for something to eat and a scantily clad and attractive young lady walks in. Excitement is stirred in him as she stands close by. The young man immediately has a conscience at his thoughts. Though he previously found women extremely attractive and had improper thoughts concerning them, for the first time, his conscience hurts him. He mustn’t have those kind of thoughts now that he is a Christian.
The next week he is out again with friends and sees a provocative-looking woman walking down the road. This time the excitement stirred in him is even greater. The improper thoughts, therefore, are much worse than they were on the previous occasion. He dwells on them a little longer than he did the last time. This makes him feel far worse than he did previously. If he wants to be a Christian, those thoughts have to stop.
A few days later he is watching television. A show comes on that he has seen many times before. He is very troubled. Week after week he has seen the woman who hosts the programme and hardly given her a second glance, but now he is looking at her in a different way, one that stirs up a hornet’s nest in his mind.
Over the next few weeks the excitement grows when he thinks of or comes into contact with women. The resulting impure thoughts gradually worsen. He is very concerned. When he first became a Christian he used to ask God once a week to forgive him of any imperfections in his life, but now he asks every other day. At first he had no doubt God immediately forgave him, but now that the sin is getting worse, he is not so confident. How can he be a Christian and have the thoughts he is having?
The excitement women stir in him mounts, it becomes relentless. The impure thoughts magnify tenfold. He finds himself now daily pleading with God to forgive him for the wrong in his mind. He tries his hardest to resist such thoughts, but the harder he tries the worse they get. It is like trying to cut through a swarm of bees with a sword; his efforts come to nothing. He stops socialising with other young people at the church because they wouldn’t want to know him if they understood the real him beneath the skin.
Eventually he finds the excitement that women stir in him is out of control. He goes to church less frequently and spends far less time praying and reading his Bible. He is discouraged, wearied by his failed efforts to resist.
The final straw comes when he hires out a pornographic film. He can’t be a Christian. He tried his hardest, but failed. In the few months since he got saved, he just ended up a worse sinner. The weird thing is before he became a Christian he looked at women and coveted them at times, but thoughts such as the ones he is having now had never consumed his mind. He walks away depressed, convinced he will end up in hell. Even though he is sure God exists and Jesus died on the cross to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, he couldn’t be good enough for God. He was too weak and ill disciplined.
Now this young man became a Christian. He was immediately sin conscious we can say. Before God placed the law on the young man’s heart and wrote it on his mind, he committed sin, for improper thoughts and lust break the law of God, but before he became a Christian, he would not have recognised his improper thoughts as sinful. For as we previously saw, it is only when we are conscious of God’s laws that we become conscious of our sin because when we see our shortfall in obedience to those laws, the light is turned on. So the young man earnestly desired the sin to cease, for he had been born again, but his sinful nature, which is basic to all and has been around since the time of Adam, didn’t want to stop sinning. It cannot, friend, for by its definition, it is a nature that desires to break the law of God.
Now why did such fear and excitement overcome the young man where lust was concerned? Because he believed the outcome of this highest-of-all-stakes battle hinged on ceasing his sin, in this case his improper thoughts. He was fully convinced this was the truth. The risk (or danger) of hell centred on that one thing. Now, friend, you simply cannot be in a battle for the highest of all stakes, with, therefore, the greatest of risks attached to it without huge excitement being stirred up in you. That is human nature, and that excitement will inevitably focus on what decides the outcome of the battle. Whenever impure thoughts came to the young man, therefore, great excitement overcame him at the same time. What must be the result? The sinful nature had a field day; he became swamped by lust and believed he was condemned.
You see, friend, there is no faith in fear, and there is no victory unless the truth of the Gospel is followed. If that young man had looked to Jesus and trusted that He died for his sins when improper thoughts came over him, those thoughts would have never posed any great risk or danger, would they? Huge excitement would, therefore, have never overcome him where lust (or coveting) was concerned. There would have been no high stakes battle concerning lust. The problem is the young man did not stand on a justification of faith in Christ, but one of works of the law (ceasing lust), for lust is breaking the law of God. Let us not forget, as well, had the young man looked to Jesus and trusted that He atoned for his sins, rather than trying to be justified before God by works of the law, he could not, and would not have used that as a licence to sin, for he desperately wanted to be free of the sin in his heart. That would not change if he had looked to Christ and stood by faith in Him. He would still have hated the sin and wanted to be free of it, but he would not have let the sin condemn him.
Now we can say the young man would have felt alive before the law came to him because there was no condemnation then, but once it did come, sin (consciousness) sprang to life in him and he died spiritually. The commandment he believed would give him life if he obeyed it, instead brought death (condemnation), for he could not keep it. Sin, through the commandment, slew him, and yet he knew the law itself was holy, just, and good. He (his sin) was the problem, not the good and holy laws of God.
Now, friend, listen to the words of Paul in Romans 7:9-13. He is speaking of a time the law came to him when he came of age to make a commitment to God. This would have been before his conversion to Christianity, therefore:

Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin (consciousness) sprang to life and I died. [SUP] [/SUP]I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [SUP] [/SUP]For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. [SUP] [/SUP]So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
[SUP] [/SUP]Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. (NIV)

You see, friend, Paul the Pharisee, and the young man both had something in common. They both believed they had to be good enough for God. Because that is what they believed, they were slain by sin according to the law’s requirements.

senzi · Oct 18, 2015

onlinebuddy said:

They are not standing on a righteousness of faith in christ, but one of obedience to the law.[/QUOTE?When struggling with sin, how can one stand on a righteousness of faith in Christ.

This is how I believe you cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness:

A man stumbles into a church service one night in a desperate state. The years of drunken revelry, sleeping with woman after woman and constantly seeking to gratify the flesh have caught up with him. He is broken, alone and in despair. He would never have thought of entering a church, believing it could offer no hope for someone such as he, but for some reason he was irresistibly drawn to enter the building. He feels uncomfortable as he walks through the door. Churches aren’t for people like him but for those who have lived decent, upright lives, people who have pure hearts and minds, people who have not been corrupted as he has been by the world. To his great surprise, however, when the altar call is given, he stumbles forward to accept Christ as his Saviour.
A kindly old man chats with him after the service. He tells him a battle will now follow so that he can see victory over the sin he is a slave to. The man tells him this victory can only be won, however, by looking to Jesus and trusting that He died for him. That is the only righteousness he can have before God. The new convert considers this a very strange battle to be in, with strange rules that don’t make sense, but there is something about this kindly old man that makes the new convert trust him. He has so much love for him, a filthy rotten sinner, it exudes from every part of the man sitting next to him. The man gives the new convert a few simple scripture verses and advises him to place them in rooms in his home. Then when the battle becomes difficult, he can look to them and gain strength. The new convert takes them, along with a New Testament the old man gives him.
He walks away from the church, slightly bemused. His life has been in a terrible state for years. He is a habitual thief who has spent time in prison, he is a slave to alcohol, he swears like a trooper, and he has had many affairs. For a long time he has been desperate for a way out, but never once dreamed of turning to God. He’d imagined he would have had to live an almost perfect life or God would have cast him into hell. He was too weak for that. He had no strength left. He was broken from living a life steeped in the worst of sin. Yet now this old man was telling him all he had to do was trust Jesus. That would decide the battle ahead.
So the man starts out on his walk. As we previously discussed, some sin the new convert can immediately stop, for it has not tied itself so tightly around him that he is a slave to it. So this man determines not to steal again, which immediately brings positive fruit from his new found Christian walk. He also determines there will be no more affairs. Even the bad language immediately starts to lessen, so evidence of his change of heart by being born again is already plain to see.
The drinking is not so straightforward, however; he has been its slave for many a year. A couple of days after the man gets saved, he is sitting at home in the evening. All of a sudden a huge desire for alcohol comes over him. He has a drink, hoping to satisfy the craving, but it doesn’t. His conscience hurts him as he pours the second drink, but the pull of alcohol is fierce. By the time he takes the third drink, he is not thinking so clearly because the alcohol is having an effect. Eventually he drinks far too much before stumbling into bed.
When he wakes in the morning, he feels anguish in his heart. Things were going so well, but now he has let God down. A voice whispers in his head, You’d better give up with God, for Christians cannot go around drinking as you did last night. You can’t stop being a slave to sin and get where you need to be if you drink like that. The man pauses. The voice sounds reasonable. He knows he cannot cross over to where he needs to be if he continues to drink as he did the night before. He remembers, however, the old man telling him the night he got saved that only one thing could make him acceptable in God’s sight − faith in His Son − and that would bring him the victory. So despite his sorrow for how he acted, he determines to trust in this truth rather than dwell on his failure. It isn’t easy to do, but he perseveres. He looks to Jesus and trusts he is still saved. The voice in his head tells him he is just faking his Christianity, but the man determines to keep looking to Christ and carries on in the faith.
A couple of days later the same thing happens. The man drinks far too much and wakes up in great sorrow for his actions the night before. The voice inside his head tells him he will have to give up on Christianity now. God may have forgiven him once for drinking too much, but he won’t a second time. If he remains a Christian, he is making a mockery of the faith. He is as good as promoting sin. Once again, the man pauses. The voice sounds reasonable and logical.
He rings the kindly old man who spoke to him the night he got converted and truthfully tells him about his drinking and the voice inside his head. To his amazement the man tells him not to worry because he’s winning the battle, and Satan must be getting worried if he’s accusing him that much. He reminds him he must keep looking to Jesus and trusting he is saved because Jesus died for him, and not look to his imperfections and failures. He puts the phone down, surprised by the man’s words, though reassured by what he told him. Once again, however, he considers this battle to have strange rules that don’t seem logical at all. He has to fight his natural reasoning and understanding to hold onto faith in Christ.
For a time the lapses continue where alcohol is concerned. After each occasion, the man wakes in the morning feeling terrible because he drank so much the night before. Each time, the voice inside his head increases its accusations: “You’re just a hypocrite”; “You’re faking your Christianity”; “You can’t be a Christian and drink as you do.” Despite the accusations, however, the man clings to Christ. He trusts what the old man told him the night he was saved.
After a time something startling happens; the man finds he is becoming more able to resist the alcohol. Bit by bit he is able to markedly resist his drinking. Eventually the amount he drinks is so little it has no adverse effect on him at all. He is thrilled. That kindly old man in church was right; he was seeing the victory by faith in Christ. He praises God for what He has done for him, through Jesus.
With his mind now free from thinking about alcohol, however, another weakness is unleashed. All of a sudden his mind is flooded with impurity. A voice whispers in his ear: “You can’t be a Christian and have thoughts like that; you’re just faking it.” Satan plants a few scripture verses in the man’s head to endorse this view, for he is not averse to quoting scripture out of context when it suits him. For a second the man pauses. The voice in his head again sounds reasonable. He cannot ignore what scripture plainly states. But then he looks at the scripture verse the old man gave him that is pinned on his wall: “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” He is grateful for those words and looks to Jesus, trusting he is still saved and not condemned.
The voice inside his head once again tells him he’s a hypocrite and just fooling himself, but he won’t be swayed. He has seen the victory over alcohol by faith and trusts he will have victory over the impure thoughts, as well. For a time the impure thoughts flood his mind. He keeps looking to Jesus, clinging to Him as a limpet clings to a rock. He holds onto what the man told him. He only has one righteousness in God’s sight, faith in His Son. As the battle rages, however, the voice inside his head is relentless: “You’re a hypocrite”; “You’re just faking your Christianity”; “You’re weak”; “You’re useless”; “You’re too dirty and rotten to be saved”; “You have to be pure to be a Christian, not like you are. You’re just a sinner.”
“Yes, I am a sinner!” the man finally cries out in anguish. “But Jesus died for sinners!” All of a sudden the room gets very quiet. The only sound is the traffic outside on the street. He can’t hear the voice in his head anymore; it has gone strangely quiet. The man is grateful and keeps looking to Jesus. He has gone too far now to turn back. He suddenly knows he will keep trusting no matter what happens, for Jesus is all he has. He is in a boat with Jesus, and he can only sink if Jesus sinks. The impure thoughts start to lessen, and the man is surprised by how quickly this is happening. He is seeing the victory, just like he saw victory over alcohol. By now, all his bad language has also ceased.
Satan realises this man will not be swayed from trusting Jesus died for him, so he is forced to give up, move on, and try to find someone else to devour. He will return at times to see how the man is doing and fire some arrows at him, but he has lost the main battle. He only had one thing to begin with to try to turn the sincere-of-heart convert away, and it didn’t work. Satan uses the good and holy laws of God to try to make a convert feel condemned.
The man is not perfect in the flesh. He will be a work in progress all his life, for he lives in a body of weak flesh. By faith in Christ, however, he has crossed over from offering himself as a slave of sin, to offering himself as a slave of righteousness, which leads to holiness.
Now, friend, what kind of man do you think will emerge from that battle? Well we know he won’t be a proud man, for he never won the battle; Jesus did. He just stood by faith in Him. He will love God greatly for changing a sinner such as he. He will know the great love, mercy, and compassion of God, and he will want to tell others of what God has done in his life. He will witness of the grace he has received. He will be a merciful person, for he has obtained great mercy. He will want to be faithful, for he knows God has loved him much, forgiven him much, and delivered him from the pit he was in.
Now that man never looked to the law and strove to obey it. He looked to Jesus and trusted Him. By doing so, the higher points of the perfect, holy, and righteous law of God are now evident in his life.
He was involved in the same high-stakes battle as the young man from the previous chapter, but the young man hinged everything on trying to defeat the sin (a work of the law), whereas this man hinged everything on trusting Jesus. The young man, therefore, got excited about the sin, whereas this man got excited about Jesus. The young man had followed the way of Paul the Pharisee, this man, the way of the Gospel that Paul the Christian preached in Romans 6:14: “[SUP] [/SUP]For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. (through faith).” (NIV)

senzi · Oct 18, 2015

onlinebuddy said:

They are not standing on a righteousness of faith in christ, but one of obedience to the law.[/QUOTE?When struggling with sin, how can one stand on a righteousness of faith in Christ.

In case you don't want to read what I put up. The born again Christian hates the sin and wants to see victory over it. However, they do not look to the sin and strive to defeat it if they are a slave to it, they look to Christ and trust him to give them victory over the sin, while doing so they stand on the truth that Christ is their right standing before God, their sin cannot condemn them. This is not an excuse to be lazy, they are desperate to see the sin defeated, but they cannot do it themselves.

It is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the spirit of God, who trust in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh(ourselves)
While you are seeking justification by faith in Christ in order to cross over from being a slave of sin to being a slave of righteousness negative thoughts will flood your mind that you cannot truly be a Christian, imperfect as you are, you are just faking it. But you have to ignore that negativity and keep looking to Jesus.,
The great preacher Charles Spurgeon said when people become Christians it is like approaching a huge mountain. Most try and climb the mountain, but it is too steep, they have to give up and keep coming back to where they started. But each time they try and fail to climb the mountain they are getting more and more weary until they are worn out with their failed efforts. He likened this to the way of law. But he said at the foot of the mountain was a narrow gorge, so narrow that most failed to see it. He said it was the way of Jesus and led to the other side.
If you are looking to Christ in your heart and trusting him to give you victory over the sin by standing in a righteousness of faith in him, it is not possible for you at the same time to willkingly want to gratify the flesh.

The best way to fight a lustful thought is to look to Christ.
When I became a Christian I in effect stood on a righteousness of being good enough under the law. I became corrupted on the inside.
When grace finally discovered me, I was thrilled, for the first time in my life I believed I could be a Christian, for my salvation hinged on Christ, not my own personal goodness. But what of the sin that had wrapped itself so tightly around me? For six years I had been a slave to a sin that left me feeling dirty and worthless. This sin had grown the harder I tried to obey the law to attain Heaven. How was this sin to be defeated for I desperately wanted it to cease. Well I got down on my knees and asked God to deal with it through Christ, then for the first time in my life, I trusted Jesus I was saved because he died for me, it had nothing to do with my personal goodness(which has to0 be according to the law) For the next three days this particular sin continued. It wasn't easy, a voice in my head kept telling me I could not be a Christian with such sin in my life, but for the first time in my life I ignored that voice(though it was not easy to do) I looked away from myself and to Jesus and simply trusted I was saved because he died for me, he was my only right standing before the Father. After four days, this sin which I had been a slave to for six years stopped, praise God!!
The harder I tried to defeat it to attain heaven the worse sinner I became. When I looked to Christ and trusted he was my righteousness, the sin stopped. As Paul states:

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace(through faith) Rom 6:14

In my view, that is the most understated of all Pauls verses, for it is the key to victory. Many people can write books on how to overcome sin, but Paul tells us in eighteen words

ukok102nak · Oct 18, 2015

prove-all said:

blessed are those who speak the words of god who is good and doesn't lie
For he is the truth and
also his only begotten son
Our Lord god Jesus Christ who is our saviour when the time comes . ...

:smoke: my brethren keep your faith always :happy:
The way you it was shown to you by the spirit of goodness
And also to all the people here
my fellows :happy: my brothers and my sisters
who have seen the truth in the holy scriptures
no matter how it pains them because they are been put into trial
To determine who will endure all the things that is written . ...

God bless us all

:ty:

ukok102nak · Oct 18, 2015

senzi said:

onlinebuddy said:

They are not standing on a righteousness of faith in christ, but one of obedience to the law.[/QUOTE?When struggling with sin, how can one stand on a righteousness of faith in Christ.

This is how I believe you cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness:

A man stumbles into a church service one night in a desperate state. The years of drunken revelry, sleeping with woman after woman and constantly seeking to gratify the flesh have caught up with him. He is broken, alone and in despair. He would never have thought of entering a church, believing it could offer no hope for someone such as he, but for some reason he was irresistibly drawn to enter the building. He feels uncomfortable as he walks through the door. Churches aren’t for people like him but for those who have lived decent, upright lives, people who have pure hearts and minds, people who have not been corrupted as he has been by the world. To his great surprise, however, when the altar call is given, he stumbles forward to accept Christ as his Saviour.
A kindly old man chats with him after the service. He tells him a battle will now follow so that he can see victory over the sin he is a slave to. The man tells him this victory can only be won, however, by looking to Jesus and trusting that He died for him. That is the only righteousness he can have before God. The new convert considers this a very strange battle to be in, with strange rules that don’t make sense, but there is something about this kindly old man that makes the new convert trust him. He has so much love for him, a filthy rotten sinner, it exudes from every part of the man sitting next to him. The man gives the new convert a few simple scripture verses and advises him to place them in rooms in his home. Then when the battle becomes difficult, he can look to them and gain strength. The new convert takes them, along with a New Testament the old man gives him.
He walks away from the church, slightly bemused. His life has been in a terrible state for years. He is a habitual thief who has spent time in prison, he is a slave to alcohol, he swears like a trooper, and he has had many affairs. For a long time he has been desperate for a way out, but never once dreamed of turning to God. He’d imagined he would have had to live an almost perfect life or God would have cast him into hell. He was too weak for that. He had no strength left. He was broken from living a life steeped in the worst of sin. Yet now this old man was telling him all he had to do was trust Jesus. That would decide the battle ahead.
So the man starts out on his walk. As we previously discussed, some sin the new convert can immediately stop, for it has not tied itself so tightly around him that he is a slave to it. So this man determines not to steal again, which immediately brings positive fruit from his new found Christian walk. He also determines there will be no more affairs. Even the bad language immediately starts to lessen, so evidence of his change of heart by being born again is already plain to see.
The drinking is not so straightforward, however; he has been its slave for many a year. A couple of days after the man gets saved, he is sitting at home in the evening. All of a sudden a huge desire for alcohol comes over him. He has a drink, hoping to satisfy the craving, but it doesn’t. His conscience hurts him as he pours the second drink, but the pull of alcohol is fierce. By the time he takes the third drink, he is not thinking so clearly because the alcohol is having an effect. Eventually he drinks far too much before stumbling into bed.
When he wakes in the morning, he feels anguish in his heart. Things were going so well, but now he has let God down. A voice whispers in his head, You’d better give up with God, for Christians cannot go around drinking as you did last night. You can’t stop being a slave to sin and get where you need to be if you drink like that. The man pauses. The voice sounds reasonable. He knows he cannot cross over to where he needs to be if he continues to drink as he did the night before. He remembers, however, the old man telling him the night he got saved that only one thing could make him acceptable in God’s sight − faith in His Son − and that would bring him the victory. So despite his sorrow for how he acted, he determines to trust in this truth rather than dwell on his failure. It isn’t easy to do, but he perseveres. He looks to Jesus and trusts he is still saved. The voice in his head tells him he is just faking his Christianity, but the man determines to keep looking to Christ and carries on in the faith.
A couple of days later the same thing happens. The man drinks far too much and wakes up in great sorrow for his actions the night before. The voice inside his head tells him he will have to give up on Christianity now. God may have forgiven him once for drinking too much, but he won’t a second time. If he remains a Christian, he is making a mockery of the faith. He is as good as promoting sin. Once again, the man pauses. The voice sounds reasonable and logical.
He rings the kindly old man who spoke to him the night he got converted and truthfully tells him about his drinking and the voice inside his head. To his amazement the man tells him not to worry because he’s winning the battle, and Satan must be getting worried if he’s accusing him that much. He reminds him he must keep looking to Jesus and trusting he is saved because Jesus died for him, and not look to his imperfections and failures. He puts the phone down, surprised by the man’s words, though reassured by what he told him. Once again, however, he considers this battle to have strange rules that don’t seem logical at all. He has to fight his natural reasoning and understanding to hold onto faith in Christ.
For a time the lapses continue where alcohol is concerned. After each occasion, the man wakes in the morning feeling terrible because he drank so much the night before. Each time, the voice inside his head increases its accusations: “You’re just a hypocrite”; “You’re faking your Christianity”; “You can’t be a Christian and drink as you do.” Despite the accusations, however, the man clings to Christ. He trusts what the old man told him the night he was saved.
After a time something startling happens; the man finds he is becoming more able to resist the alcohol. Bit by bit he is able to markedly resist his drinking. Eventually the amount he drinks is so little it has no adverse effect on him at all. He is thrilled. That kindly old man in church was right; he was seeing the victory by faith in Christ. He praises God for what He has done for him, through Jesus.
With his mind now free from thinking about alcohol, however, another weakness is unleashed. All of a sudden his mind is flooded with impurity. A voice whispers in his ear: “You can’t be a Christian and have thoughts like that; you’re just faking it.” Satan plants a few scripture verses in the man’s head to endorse this view, for he is not averse to quoting scripture out of context when it suits him. For a second the man pauses. The voice in his head again sounds reasonable. He cannot ignore what scripture plainly states. But then he looks at the scripture verse the old man gave him that is pinned on his wall: “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” He is grateful for those words and looks to Jesus, trusting he is still saved and not condemned.
The voice inside his head once again tells him he’s a hypocrite and just fooling himself, but he won’t be swayed. He has seen the victory over alcohol by faith and trusts he will have victory over the impure thoughts, as well. For a time the impure thoughts flood his mind. He keeps looking to Jesus, clinging to Him as a limpet clings to a rock. He holds onto what the man told him. He only has one righteousness in God’s sight, faith in His Son. As the battle rages, however, the voice inside his head is relentless: “You’re a hypocrite”; “You’re just faking your Christianity”; “You’re weak”; “You’re useless”; “You’re too dirty and rotten to be saved”; “You have to be pure to be a Christian, not like you are. You’re just a sinner.”
“Yes, I am a sinner!” the man finally cries out in anguish. “But Jesus died for sinners!” All of a sudden the room gets very quiet. The only sound is the traffic outside on the street. He can’t hear the voice in his head anymore; it has gone strangely quiet. The man is grateful and keeps looking to Jesus. He has gone too far now to turn back. He suddenly knows he will keep trusting no matter what happens, for Jesus is all he has. He is in a boat with Jesus, and he can only sink if Jesus sinks. The impure thoughts start to lessen, and the man is surprised by how quickly this is happening.He is seeing the victory, just like he saw victory over alcohol. By now, all his bad language has also ceased.
Satan realises this man will not be swayed from trusting Jesus died for him, so he is forced to give up, move on, and try to find someone else to devour. He will return at times to see how the man is doing and fire some arrows at him, but he has lost the main battle. He only had one thing to begin with to try to turn the sincere-of-heart convert away, and it didn’t work. Satan uses the good and holy laws of God to try to make a convert feel condemned.
The man is not perfect in the flesh. He will be a work in progress all his life, for he lives in a body of weak flesh. By faith in Christ, however, he has crossed over from offering himself as a slave of sin, to offering himself as a slave of righteousness, which leads to holiness.
Now, friend, what kind of man do you think will emerge from that battle? Well we know he won’t be a proud man, for he never won the battle; Jesus did. He just stood by faith in Him. He will love God greatly for changing a sinner such as he. He will know the great love, mercy, and compassion of God, and he will want to tell others of what God has done in his life. He will witness of the grace he has received. He will be a merciful person, for he has obtained great mercy. He will want to be faithful, for he knows God has loved him much, forgiven him much, and delivered him from the pit he was in.
Now that man never looked to the law and strove to obey it. He looked to Jesus and trusted Him. By doing so, the higher points of the perfect, holy, and righteous law of God are now evident in his life.
He was involved in the same high-stakes battle as the young man from the previous chapter, but the young man hinged everything on trying to defeat the sin (a work of the law), whereas this man hinged everything on trusting Jesus. The young man, therefore, got excited about the sin, whereas this man got excited about Jesus. The young man had followed the way of Paul the Pharisee, this man, the way of the Gospel that Paul the Christian preached in Romans 6:14: “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. (through faith).” (NIV)

:hmm: who is this man my brother

the life story of that man seems familiar to us :happy:

:smoke: we hope you could explain to us my brother :happy:

God bless us all

:ty:

onlinebuddy · Oct 18, 2015

Senzi, I appreciate all your effort. I have read your short version (in red). Will definitely read the long version. Will get back to you with my thoughts.

PeterJens · Oct 18, 2015

senzi said:

I like your stories. You cannot conquer sin unless you understand yourself, and look to Jesus.
The problem for many is looking to Jesus sounds like a religious phrase.
I look at this as seeing the love Jesus has for me in his actions, thinking about his dedication and direction. Praise and worship give focus as well.

Allowing yourself to be attracted to women, to understand provocative dress and behaviour, and most of all to love the person and not the pretence also works. For some young men, women are another universe, so understanding them as friends and people helps.

What people often miss, is sin is about actions not thoughts. Thoughts do not condemn people, but so many feel guilty, as if attraction is wrong. Unfortunately many talk about legalism, and talk about purity in terms of not having simple reactions to people. A person who has many interactions, a long track record understands much of reality that the inexperienced do not know or understand. So in the real world both examples given are theoretical constructs, and we all are a mixture of both.

Because we walk under grace it does not mean we do not have struggles, and need to work on a change of heart and understanding. Often such issues are lifelong, and our hearts only change slowly. Walking in purity is more about honouring the Lord while working on the walk.

I take your point, it is easy to think about self justification, and the walk is about rules and not love from the heart. If you start with trying to love the most annoying person you know, you will understand how far we often are from the heart of the Lord.

VioletReigns · Oct 18, 2015

Roberth said:

Read the following (its a bit long):

I would like to confess that this is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. I have heard lots of talks, I have read a lot of material on this verse, but I am afraid I have to disagree with all of them. Let me give you a typical interpretation of verse 31 that you often read and hear:

“Do we then make void the law through faith? No! By faith God gives us His Spirit. He gives us power. And we are able to keep the law by God’s power, and by keeping the law, we are establishing the law.”

That is a typical interpretation of verse 31. I would like to suggest that this is far from what Paul is talking about. I’ll give you three reasons:

It does not agree with the context.
It does not agree historically.
It does not agree with the grammar.

We need to be honest with every text that we read. Paul is not saying here that by faith we keep the law through the grace of God, through the power of God, and that way we establish the law. Let me explain each one of them.

First of all, contextually. Paul is not dealing in this passage which we have covered with the doctrine of Sanctification. He is dealing with the doctrine of Justification by Faith. Yes, Paul has much to say in Romans on this doctrine of Sanctification, in chapters 6, 7, and 8. And Paul has much to say on the issue of Christian living, which must be in harmony with the law, in chapter 12 up to chapter 16. But here, in this passage, he is not dealing with the subjective experience of the Christian. He is dealing with the truth of the righteousness of God which justifies us apart from the works of the law. So the context won’t allow you to give you that interpretation.

Let us look at the second problem, historically. What do I mean that this interpretation disagrees historically? Well, it is impossible. I am going to make a statement first, and I will explain it, because I know that many will misunderstand me just making the statement: “It is impossible for you and me to establish the law.”

Now I do not mean by that it is impossible for you and me, by the grace of God, to keep the law. I am not discussing that. We will come to that when we come to the sections on sanctification and the sections on Christian living. What I am saying here, and what Paul is saying here, is that it’s impossible for you and me, and it has never happened in the history of the human race, or in the history of the Christian church, where any believer has established the law.

Now to explain that. What do I mean? What does Paul mean when he uses the word establish? It means that the law is totally and fully satisfied with you. When every demand of the law on you has been satisfied, then and then only you have established the law. And that is impossible. I’ll tell you why folks. The law demands two things from you and me. Not one, but two things:

The law demands perfect righteousness from you and me.
Because we are sinners, the law demands from you and me justice. Now it is true, Paul says in Romans 8:4 that [beginning at the end of verse 3]:
And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

If we walk in the Spirit, the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us. But the righteousness of the law is not the justice of the law. The justice of the law is that [Eze. 18:4 & 20]:
The soul who sins is the one who will die.
And the death that the law demands from you and me as sinners is not the first death, it’s good-bye to life forever. Therefore, it is impossible to meet the justice of the law and still live because, when you die the second death, that’s the end of you.

So there are two requirements that the law demands from each one of us. If you fail to fulfil those two requirements, you cannot establish the law, the law will condemn you, you’re still under the curse. But in Christ the law has been established. Christ met on behalf of all people the two demands. By His perfect life, He has met the positive demand of the law, which the Bible calls the righteousness of the law. And, by His death, He has met the justice of the law, so that, in the doing and the dying of Christ, the law has been established. That is what Paul is saying in verse 31. I’ll come back to it.

Let’s go to number three: grammatically. You see, the word “faith” is the key state word in this verse, 31:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [Some translations read: Do we then make void the law through faith?]

Now the word “faith” has more than one meaning in the New Testament. Paul is not saying here, “Do we then make void the law through our faith?” He is not discussing the believer’s faith, which is one of the key definitions of faith in the New Testament. But he’s not discussing that, because, in the original, which is not in the English [translations of the] Bible, in the original, the word “faith” is preceded by the definite article. So what Paul says here is:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [Some translations read: Do we then make void the law through the faith?]

When he uses the word faith with the definite article, it can have more than one meaning. I want to give you an example of what it can mean before I turn to this verse. Turn your Bibles to a very important passage, Galatians chapter 3, the passage that brought a tremendous controversy, not only in the Christian church, but in ours, 100 years ago. Galatians chapter 3, and I want to look at two verses, 23 and 25. And here Paul does the same thing. He uses the word faith with the definite article. I read in verse 23:

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

Now what is Paul saying in verse 23? The word “faith” here is not applying to the believer’s faith but to the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ. So what Paul is saying here in Galatians 3:23 is: “Before Christ came, historically, before He came to this world, before Christ came and redeemed us by His life and death, the human race was kept in prison. We were all in death row legally before Christ came.”

In other words, even Enoch and Moses, even Elijah, had no right to be in heaven. But they were there because of a promise. If Christ had failed to keep that promise, they would have to come down and die. But the fact is that, legally, the whole world was in prison, sentenced to eternal death, until the faith of Christ came. That is why Paul says in Galatians 3, verses 24-25:

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

In verse 23, the faith had not come; in verse 25, He had already come. But after the faith had come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law [or “under the schoolmaster,” as some translations read] because Christ has set us free.

So the word faith in Galatians 3 does not refer to the believer’s faith, but to the object of the believer’s faith, which is Jesus Christ.

With this in mind, let’s go to Romans 3. How then does Paul use the word “faith” in verse 31 of chapter 3? Well, the context tells us here that he is discussing the doctrine of Justification by Faith. He has told us in verse 28 that the righteousness of God which justifies us by faith is apart from the law. That means our keeping of the law does not contribute towards the righteousness which justifies us. But the question in verse 31 is, “What about God’s righteousness? Does God’s righteousness satisfy the law?” In other words, is God righteous when He justifies us sinners? Can His righteousness stand up with the law in the judgment? The answer is yes.
In other words, what Paul is defending here is, once again, the legal framework of the atonement. That’s why, if we destroy the legal framework of the atonement, which some of our theologians are trying to do, we have destroyed one of the key passages, one of the key teachings of the New Testament.

Let me ask you a question. If you stand before the judgment seat of God today, and the law says to you, “Have you obeyed me?” What are you going to say?
“Well, we have been taught that the law no longer applies.”
And God will say, “Who told you that?”
“Well, some theologian with a Ph.D.”
And God will say, “Since when was he your Saviour?”
The Bible is the measuring stick of truth. And the Bible says [Heb. 9:22]:

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

On the cross, Jesus met the justice of the law. And, by His life, He met the positive demands of the law. And when I stand before the judgment seat of God, and the law of God says to me, “Have you obeyed me?” I will not say to the law, “Well, I did my best.”
The law says, “I did not ask that question.”
“Well, I kept most of the law.”
The law will say, “I did not ask you that question either. Have you obeyed me in every detail?”
“Well, I goofed up a few times.”
And the law says, “I’m sorry, you must die. Once is enough.”
But I thank God I will not answer the law that way. I will say, “Yes, I have obeyed you perfectly.”
The law will say, “When did you obey me perfectly?”
“When I was in Christ. Then I had perfect obedience.”
But the law will say, “You’re a sinner, you must die.”
And I will say to the law, “Well I have bad news for you, I have already died.”
The law will say, “When did you die?”
I will quote to the law Galatians 2:20:

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live....

The law will say, “Well, if that’s your position, then you are free to live.”
And I will say to the law, “Thank you.”

Because, in Christ, the law has been established on behalf of you and me. That is what verse 31 says. God doesn’t bypass His law to justify us. God holds His integrity to His law when He justifies me through His Son Jesus Christ. Because, in His Son’s holy history, God has met every demand of the law for you and for me. That is the “good news” of the Gospel.

Holy cats, are you kidding me?? Why don't you just go ahead and paste the entire NT here?! Wowzers. Can you imagine a throng of sick and hurting people dropping everything they're doing and following hard after Jesus for healing and spiritual nourishment and then Jesus holding them captive with a long and tedious rant such as this that you've posted, Robert?

Oy vey! Seriously, THINK!!! Think with the mind of Christ. He came to set us free from all this heavy jargon and jumping through all manner of hoops to live the abundant life in Him.

Do we not understand the deception of living under law? For it presents something forbidden, which stirs within us the desire to obtain it. And then, when we get what we thought we wanted, we discover it is never enough.

We have been taught to seek fulfillment in that which can never bring it. Our law-based perceptions have reinforced the lie that God just doesn’t want us to enjoy the good stuff of life, when in fact, the good stuff of life is exactly what Christ is all about.

It's only Jesus Himself we need. Nothing else. And we have Him. End of story. It's finished. That's what's so amazing about grace.

Abing · Oct 18, 2015

Just looking at these threads is exhausting. Let alone reading them. I should just go read the bible...

mpaper345 · Oct 18, 2015

Roberth said:

This seems to be saying,not an innocent person wanting to bear the iniquity of a guilty person,or having to,but everybody is responsible for their own sin.You are not blamed for the sins of your father,or any one else,but you are blamed for your own sins,and do not bear the iniquity of anybody else,including your family,parents,and children.

onlinebuddy · Oct 18, 2015

mpaper345 said:

The context of Ezekiel 18 is that of a father-son, and not that of a sinner-savior.
So it does not apply to Jesus dying for our sins, in our place.

THE CONTEXT:
The people of Israel were having 2 contentions against God.

Contention no 1 => They were using a proverb to imply that children are condemned for the wrongdoings of their parents. v1-2

Contention no 2 => They were saying that God was unjust by being good to evildoers and punishing the righteous. v25.

God clears both these contentions.

Contention no 1 is cleared in verses 5 - 13(righteous father-unrighteous son) and 14 - 18(unrighteous father-righteous son)
Through Ezekiel, God is telling them that a righteous father will not be held guilty for his unrighteous son. The unrighteous son must die and not the father. (verses 5-13)
Similarly, a righteous son will not be held guilty for the sins of his unrighteous father. The unrighteous father must die, and not the son.(verses 14-18).

Contention no 2 is cleared in verses 21-23 (wicked person repenting) and verses 24-25(righteous person sinning)
A wicked person who repents will live (v21-23)
A righteous person who sins will die (v24-25)
Bottomline: God takes no pleasure in punishment, but wants men to repent and live (v32)

onlinebuddy · Oct 19, 2015

Roberth said:

Roberth, Your entire argument hinges on Ezekiel 18:20. Wondering if there's a verse in the Pentateuch that says that an innocent man cannot die for a sinner.

onlinebuddy · Oct 19, 2015

..and yes, the bible says that mankind is "condemned" as a result of Adam's sin. So I stand corrected.

Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.[Romans 5:18]

onlinebuddy · Oct 19, 2015

] What is "our old self"?

Answer to # 1: Our old self is the life we received from Adam. All of us share his fallen life, indwelt with iniquity (our bent-to-self). Theologians call this "our corporate fallen life".

Roberth said:

Yes, the word "old self" or "old man" or sarx can apply to our fallen life due to Adam.
That fallen nature is just a part of our problem.
Our own willful sin poses a greater threat to us in eternity.
Do you have any reason why "old self" does not mean our pre-conversion self, ridden with willful sin, and devoid of the Holy Spirit.
I say this because the context is about not being slaves to sin.

onlinebuddy · Oct 19, 2015

Roberth said:

If our old self died in Christ 2000 years ago, what does Paul tell us to "crucify" or "put off" or "take off" in the b/m verses?:
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.[Gal 5:24]
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;[Eph 4:22]
Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices [Col 3:9]

If the "old self" died at the cross with Christ 2000 years ago, why is Paul telling believers to deal with its desires?

onlinebuddy · Oct 19, 2015

senzi said:

The Law was legal contract between God and the Jews. That age is over.
The curse of the law has been broken in this church age.
The "thou shall not"s will not control or intimidate the believer,
because the believer knows that they cannot.
They have learned from history.
The finished work of Jesus saves the believer.
Acceptance by God no longer depends on performance.

What about the law then?
The law is as holy as it ever was.
The law remains, but believers are not under its jurisdiction.

The non-believer does not know the law,
and God will not judge them by what they do not know.
Yes, every non-believer will hear the message of Jesus.
If they reject Jesus, they stand condemned,
because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only son (john 3:18).
Jesus is bigger than the law. The words of Jesus is the law.
So the gentile non-believer is not under the Law.

Yes, the non-believing Jew is under the Law. Israel (the Jews) has rejected Jesus. The gospel first came to them, but they have rejected Jesus as their messiah. Therefore the gospel has come to the gentiles.
However, God is not done with Israel. HE will judge the Israel (the Jews) by the Law of Moses, but that will happen once grace is withdrawn.

onlinebuddy · Oct 19, 2015

So, the purpose of the Law has not fully been accomplished. God still has some unfinished business with Israel, his firstborn, who has rejected him. Their judgment is pending. Till the law accomplishes its purpose, not the smallest stroke will disappear.
However, the law has accomplished its purpose with the believer, in this Church age. It has made the believer realize that they cannot be saved by their own effort. They either accept the finished work of Jesus, or be condemned.

onlinebuddy · Oct 19, 2015

onlinebuddy said:

So, the purpose of the Law has not fully been accomplished. God still has some unfinished business with Israel, his firstborn, who has rejected him. Their judgment is pending. Till the law accomplishes its purpose, not the smallest stroke will disappear.
However, the law has accomplished its purpose with the believer, in this Church age. It has made the believer realize that they cannot be saved by their own effort. They either accept the finished work of Jesus, or be condemned.

Correction:**
Israel, his chosen people,

Roberth · Oct 19, 2015

onlinebuddy said:

I made some changes....Do you agree?

Roberth · Oct 19, 2015

onlinebuddy said:

It's over in the sense that God has legally introduced a "better covenant", but there are folks today who think they do not need the righteousness of Christ. Hence, they have rejected the new covenant (a better covenant) and are therefore still under the old covenant. The covenants are not conditional upon time. That's the heresy of dispensionalism. Everyone who rejects Christ rejects the new covenant. Therefore they remain under the law.

How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

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