How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[senzi]

If I said to you. If you think of a pink elephant God will condemn you to hell, what is the first thought that will come into your head if you believe me?
However, as you know no,such penalty exists you wont think about such a creature will you.

So if I said to you. If you break the law. Thou shalt not covet God will condemn you to hell, what will be the result?

 

[Roberth]

1] What is "our old self"?

Answer to # 1: Our old self is the life we received from Adam. All of us share his fallen life, indwelt with iniquity (our bent-to-self). Theologians call this "our corporate fallen life".

Any challenges here? If so, let's keep to the context. Something died with Christ as the son of man. I have stated that it was our corporate fallen life.

 

[Mitspa]

Any challenges here? If so, let's keep to the context. Something died with Christ as the son of man. I have stated that it was our corporate fallen life.

The more biblical term would be the "sarx" flesh... in context of the fallen man.

 

[senzi]

Dont forget, the law remains, only
the penalty for breaking it got removed from the christian


For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace

 

[Roberth]

The more biblical term would be the "sarx" flesh... in context of the fallen man.

Okay, we all share in Adam's sarx. Christ as God (who is Spirit) assumed our humanity from the womb of Mary. In so doing He was made the Son of Man.

Now Romans 6:6 has to do with our death in Christ. Romans 8:3 states that "God" sent "his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and condemned sin in the flesh". Sin in the flesh and the body of sin, to me, are one and the same. God did away with "our body of sin" because He "condemned sin in the flesh." This infers that Christ assumed us because of Himself He was without sin.

 

[BradC]

What do you mean that Jesus literally became sin? It sounds like your position makes Him a sinner.

He did not become a sinner but he did become sin, the sin of the first Adam. This was the sin that separated man from God with no reconciliation possible outside of a substitute for sin, the just for the unjust. Through this substitute who died, was buried and rose from the dead we can be justified and forgiven of all sin and have perfect righteousness through faith in this substitute, God's only begotten Son.

 

[Roberth]

..."God" sent "his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and condemned sin in the flesh".

What does "likeness" mean?

It cannot mean unlikeness.

Here's my thoughts:

1] Jesus is God. He is immortal. Without sin. It's impossible for Deity to sin or die.

2] At the incarnation, God mysteriously united Christ's Deity (the Son of God) with our fallen humanity that needed redeeming. Thus Christ was made "the son of man" while still retaining His Deity.

3] That fallen humanity was never His. Likewise our fallen nature was never His. He assumed us, indwelt with sin, in order to redeem us from under the curse of the law.

 

[senzi]

The power of sin is the law 1cor15:56 this refers to the law with its penalty in place for breaking it(a law of righteousness)

God created a covenant whereby he removed the true power of sin from the believers life(the penalty of sin) but it is not possible for the born again christian to use this k iwledge as a licence to sin for the law itself remains intact on their heart. Therefore the born again christians heartfelt desire to obey can now come to fruition for what opposes obedience(sin) was dealt a crushing blow at calvary by christ dying to remove its true power from your life. So paul states:
Do we then nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in christ not obedience to the law) not at all! Rather we uphold the lawrom 3:31
What a covenant!!

 

[Roberth]

Do we then nullify the law by this faith(a righteousness of faith in christ not obedience to the law) not at all! Rather we uphold the law.

Read the following (its a bit long):

I would like to confess that this is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. I have heard lots of talks, I have read a lot of material on this verse, but I am afraid I have to disagree with all of them. Let me give you a typical interpretation of verse 31 that you often read and hear:

“Do we then make void the law through faith? No! By faith God gives us His Spirit. He gives us power. And we are able to keep the law by God’s power, and by keeping the law, we are establishing the law.”

​

That is a typical interpretation of verse 31. I would like to suggest that this is far from what Paul is talking about. I’ll give you three reasons:

1. It does not agree with the context.
2. It does not agree historically.
3. It does not agree with the grammar.

We need to be honest with every text that we read. Paul is not saying here that by faith we keep the law through the grace of God, through the power of God, and that way we establish the law. Let me explain each one of them.

First of all, contextually. Paul is not dealing in this passage which we have covered with the doctrine of Sanctification. He is dealing with the doctrine of Justification by Faith. Yes, Paul has much to say in Romans on this doctrine of Sanctification, in chapters 6, 7, and 8. And Paul has much to say on the issue of Christian living, which must be in harmony with the law, in chapter 12 up to chapter 16. But here, in this passage, he is not dealing with the subjective experience of the Christian. He is dealing with the truth of the righteousness of God which justifies us apart from the works of the law. So the context won’t allow you to give you that interpretation.

Let us look at the second problem, historically. What do I mean that this interpretation disagrees historically? Well, it is impossible. I am going to make a statement first, and I will explain it, because I know that many will misunderstand me just making the statement: “It is impossible for you and me to establish the law.”

Now I do not mean by that it is impossible for you and me, by the grace of God, to keep the law. I am not discussing that. We will come to that when we come to the sections on sanctification and the sections on Christian living. What I am saying here, and what Paul is saying here, is that it’s impossible for you and me, and it has never happened in the history of the human race, or in the history of the Christian church, where any believer has established the law.

Now to explain that. What do I mean? What does Paul mean when he uses the word establish? It means that the law is totally and fully satisfied with you. When every demand of the law on you has been satisfied, then and then only you have established the law. And that is impossible. I’ll tell you why folks. The law demands two things from you and me. Not one, but two things:

1. The law demands perfect righteousness from you and me.
2. Because we are sinners, the law demands from you and me justice. Now it is true, Paul says in Romans 8:4 that [beginning at the end of verse 3]:
3. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
   
   ​
   If we walk in the Spirit, the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us. But the righteousness of the law is not the justice of the law. The justice of the law is that [Eze. 18:4 & 20]:
4. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
5. And the death that the law demands from you and me as sinners is not the first death, it’s good-bye to life forever. Therefore, it is impossible to meet the justice of the law and still live because, when you die the second death, that’s the end of you.

So there are two requirements that the law demands from each one of us. If you fail to fulfil those two requirements, you cannot establish the law, the law will condemn you, you’re still under the curse. But in Christ the law has been established. Christ met on behalf of all people the two demands. By His perfect life, He has met the positive demand of the law, which the Bible calls the righteousness of the law. And, by His death, He has met the justice of the law, so that, in the doing and the dying of Christ, the law has been established. That is what Paul is saying in verse 31. I’ll come back to it.

Let’s go to number three: grammatically. You see, the word “faith” is the key state word in this verse, 31:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [Some translations read: Do we then make void the law through faith?]

​

Now the word “faith” has more than one meaning in the New Testament. Paul is not saying here, “Do we then make void the law through our faith?” He is not discussing the believer’s faith, which is one of the key definitions of faith in the New Testament. But he’s not discussing that, because, in the original, which is not in the English [translations of the] Bible, in the original, the word “faith” is preceded by the definite article. So what Paul says here is:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [Some translations read: Do we then make void the law through the faith?]

​

When he uses the word faith with the definite article, it can have more than one meaning. I want to give you an example of what it can mean before I turn to this verse. Turn your Bibles to a very important passage, Galatians chapter 3, the passage that brought a tremendous controversy, not only in the Christian church, but in ours, 100 years ago. Galatians chapter 3, and I want to look at two verses, 23 and 25. And here Paul does the same thing. He uses the word faith with the definite article. I read in verse 23:

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

​

Now what is Paul saying in verse 23? The word “faith” here is not applying to the believer’s faith but to the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ. So what Paul is saying here in Galatians 3:23 is: “Before Christ came, historically, before He came to this world, before Christ came and redeemed us by His life and death, the human race was kept in prison. We were all in death row legally before Christ came.”

In other words, even Enoch and Moses, even Elijah, had no right to be in heaven. But they were there because of a promise. If Christ had failed to keep that promise, they would have to come down and die. But the fact is that, legally, the whole world was in prison, sentenced to eternal death, until the faith of Christ came. That is why Paul says in Galatians 3, verses 24-25:

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

​

In verse 23, the faith had not come; in verse 25, He had already come. But after the faith had come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law [or “under the schoolmaster,” as some translations read] because Christ has set us free.

So the word faith in Galatians 3 does not refer to the believer’s faith, but to the object of the believer’s faith, which is Jesus Christ.

With this in mind, let’s go to Romans 3. How then does Paul use the word “faith” in verse 31 of chapter 3? Well, the context tells us here that he is discussing the doctrine of Justification by Faith. He has told us in verse 28 that the righteousness of God which justifies us by faith is apart from the law. That means our keeping of the law does not contribute towards the righteousness which justifies us. But the question in verse 31 is, “What about God’s righteousness? Does God’s righteousness satisfy the law?” In other words, is God righteous when He justifies us sinners? Can His righteousness stand up with the law in the judgment? The answer is yes.
In other words, what Paul is defending here is, once again, the legal framework of the atonement. That’s why, if we destroy the legal framework of the atonement, which some of our theologians are trying to do, we have destroyed one of the key passages, one of the key teachings of the New Testament.

Let me ask you a question. If you stand before the judgment seat of God today, and the law says to you, “Have you obeyed me?” What are you going to say?
“Well, we have been taught that the law no longer applies.”
And God will say, “Who told you that?”
“Well, some theologian with a Ph.D.”
And God will say, “Since when was he your Saviour?”
The Bible is the measuring stick of truth. And the Bible says [Heb. 9:22]:

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

​

On the cross, Jesus met the justice of the law. And, by His life, He met the positive demands of the law. And when I stand before the judgment seat of God, and the law of God says to me, “Have you obeyed me?” I will not say to the law, “Well, I did my best.”
The law says, “I did not ask that question.”
“Well, I kept most of the law.”
The law will say, “I did not ask you that question either. Have you obeyed me in every detail?”
“Well, I goofed up a few times.”
And the law says, “I’m sorry, you must die. Once is enough.”
But I thank God I will not answer the law that way. I will say, “Yes, I have obeyed you perfectly.”
The law will say, “When did you obey me perfectly?”
“When I was in Christ. Then I had perfect obedience.”
But the law will say, “You’re a sinner, you must die.”
And I will say to the law, “Well I have bad news for you, I have already died.”
The law will say, “When did you die?”
I will quote to the law Galatians 2:20:

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live....

​

The law will say, “Well, if that’s your position, then you are free to live.”
And I will say to the law, “Thank you.”

Because, in Christ, the law has been established on behalf of you and me. That is what verse 31 says. God doesn’t bypass His law to justify us. God holds His integrity to His law when He justifies me through His Son Jesus Christ. Because, in His Son’s holy history, God has met every demand of the law for you and for me. That is the “good news” of the Gospel.

 

[senzi]

Forgive me, but I cant read all that theologising
Question. Does the power of sin remain for the born again christian?
Paul states the power of sin is the law. The law itself remains it is intact


on your heart, only the penalty for breaking it has been removed

 

[Mitspa]

Forgive me, but I cant read all that theologising
Question. Does the power of sin remain for the born again christian?
Paul states the power of sin is the law. The law itself remains it is intact


on your heart, only the penalty for breaking it has been removed

The law..ten commandments (written code)..was only a shadow of the Spirit...its is the Spirit of God that is the true "law" of God... the written code was only a type... for instance circumcision was only a shadow of the cutting away of the flesh from our hearts...the Ten Commandments only a shadow of the Love of God shed abroad in our hearts ...by the Holy spirit..

 

[Mitspa]

Read the following (its a bit long):

I would like to confess that this is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. I have heard lots of talks, I have read a lot of material on this verse, but I am afraid I have to disagree with all of them. Let me give you a typical interpretation of verse 31 that you often read and hear:

“Do we then make void the law through faith? No! By faith God gives us His Spirit. He gives us power. And we are able to keep the law by God’s power, and by keeping the law, we are establishing the law.”

​

That is a typical interpretation of verse 31. I would like to suggest that this is far from what Paul is talking about. I’ll give you three reasons:

1. It does not agree with the context.
2. It does not agree historically.
3. It does not agree with the grammar.

We need to be honest with every text that we read. Paul is not saying here that by faith we keep the law through the grace of God, through the power of God, and that way we establish the law. Let me explain each one of them.

First of all, contextually. Paul is not dealing in this passage which we have covered with the doctrine of Sanctification. He is dealing with the doctrine of Justification by Faith. Yes, Paul has much to say in Romans on this doctrine of Sanctification, in chapters 6, 7, and 8. And Paul has much to say on the issue of Christian living, which must be in harmony with the law, in chapter 12 up to chapter 16. But here, in this passage, he is not dealing with the subjective experience of the Christian. He is dealing with the truth of the righteousness of God which justifies us apart from the works of the law. So the context won’t allow you to give you that interpretation.

Let us look at the second problem, historically. What do I mean that this interpretation disagrees historically? Well, it is impossible. I am going to make a statement first, and I will explain it, because I know that many will misunderstand me just making the statement: “It is impossible for you and me to establish the law.”

Now I do not mean by that it is impossible for you and me, by the grace of God, to keep the law. I am not discussing that. We will come to that when we come to the sections on sanctification and the sections on Christian living. What I am saying here, and what Paul is saying here, is that it’s impossible for you and me, and it has never happened in the history of the human race, or in the history of the Christian church, where any believer has established the law.

Now to explain that. What do I mean? What does Paul mean when he uses the word establish? It means that the law is totally and fully satisfied with you. When every demand of the law on you has been satisfied, then and then only you have established the law. And that is impossible. I’ll tell you why folks. The law demands two things from you and me. Not one, but two things:

1. The law demands perfect righteousness from you and me.
2. Because we are sinners, the law demands from you and me justice. Now it is true, Paul says in Romans 8:4 that [beginning at the end of verse 3]:
3. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
   
   ​
   If we walk in the Spirit, the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us. But the righteousness of the law is not the justice of the law. The justice of the law is that [Eze. 18:4 & 20]:
4. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
5. And the death that the law demands from you and me as sinners is not the first death, it’s good-bye to life forever. Therefore, it is impossible to meet the justice of the law and still live because, when you die the second death, that’s the end of you.

So there are two requirements that the law demands from each one of us. If you fail to fulfil those two requirements, you cannot establish the law, the law will condemn you, you’re still under the curse. But in Christ the law has been established. Christ met on behalf of all people the two demands. By His perfect life, He has met the positive demand of the law, which the Bible calls the righteousness of the law. And, by His death, He has met the justice of the law, so that, in the doing and the dying of Christ, the law has been established. That is what Paul is saying in verse 31. I’ll come back to it.

Let’s go to number three: grammatically. You see, the word “faith” is the key state word in this verse, 31:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [Some translations read: Do we then make void the law through faith?]

​

Now the word “faith” has more than one meaning in the New Testament. Paul is not saying here, “Do we then make void the law through our faith?” He is not discussing the believer’s faith, which is one of the key definitions of faith in the New Testament. But he’s not discussing that, because, in the original, which is not in the English [translations of the] Bible, in the original, the word “faith” is preceded by the definite article. So what Paul says here is:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [Some translations read: Do we then make void the law through the faith?]

​

When he uses the word faith with the definite article, it can have more than one meaning. I want to give you an example of what it can mean before I turn to this verse. Turn your Bibles to a very important passage, Galatians chapter 3, the passage that brought a tremendous controversy, not only in the Christian church, but in ours, 100 years ago. Galatians chapter 3, and I want to look at two verses, 23 and 25. And here Paul does the same thing. He uses the word faith with the definite article. I read in verse 23:

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

​

Now what is Paul saying in verse 23? The word “faith” here is not applying to the believer’s faith but to the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ. So what Paul is saying here in Galatians 3:23 is: “Before Christ came, historically, before He came to this world, before Christ came and redeemed us by His life and death, the human race was kept in prison. We were all in death row legally before Christ came.”

In other words, even Enoch and Moses, even Elijah, had no right to be in heaven. But they were there because of a promise. If Christ had failed to keep that promise, they would have to come down and die. But the fact is that, legally, the whole world was in prison, sentenced to eternal death, until the faith of Christ came. That is why Paul says in Galatians 3, verses 24-25:

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

​

In verse 23, the faith had not come; in verse 25, He had already come. But after the faith had come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law [or “under the schoolmaster,” as some translations read] because Christ has set us free.

So the word faith in Galatians 3 does not refer to the believer’s faith, but to the object of the believer’s faith, which is Jesus Christ.

With this in mind, let’s go to Romans 3. How then does Paul use the word “faith” in verse 31 of chapter 3? Well, the context tells us here that he is discussing the doctrine of Justification by Faith. He has told us in verse 28 that the righteousness of God which justifies us by faith is apart from the law. That means our keeping of the law does not contribute towards the righteousness which justifies us. But the question in verse 31 is, “What about God’s righteousness? Does God’s righteousness satisfy the law?” In other words, is God righteous when He justifies us sinners? Can His righteousness stand up with the law in the judgment? The answer is yes.
In other words, what Paul is defending here is, once again, the legal framework of the atonement. That’s why, if we destroy the legal framework of the atonement, which some of our theologians are trying to do, we have destroyed one of the key passages, one of the key teachings of the New Testament.

Let me ask you a question. If you stand before the judgment seat of God today, and the law says to you, “Have you obeyed me?” What are you going to say?
“Well, we have been taught that the law no longer applies.”
And God will say, “Who told you that?”
“Well, some theologian with a Ph.D.”
And God will say, “Since when was he your Saviour?”
The Bible is the measuring stick of truth. And the Bible says [Heb. 9:22]:

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

​

On the cross, Jesus met the justice of the law. And, by His life, He met the positive demands of the law. And when I stand before the judgment seat of God, and the law of God says to me, “Have you obeyed me?” I will not say to the law, “Well, I did my best.”
The law says, “I did not ask that question.”
“Well, I kept most of the law.”
The law will say, “I did not ask you that question either. Have you obeyed me in every detail?”
“Well, I goofed up a few times.”
And the law says, “I’m sorry, you must die. Once is enough.”
But I thank God I will not answer the law that way. I will say, “Yes, I have obeyed you perfectly.”
The law will say, “When did you obey me perfectly?”
“When I was in Christ. Then I had perfect obedience.”
But the law will say, “You’re a sinner, you must die.”
And I will say to the law, “Well I have bad news for you, I have already died.”
The law will say, “When did you die?”
I will quote to the law Galatians 2:20:

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live....

​

The law will say, “Well, if that’s your position, then you are free to live.”
And I will say to the law, “Thank you.”

Because, in Christ, the law has been established on behalf of you and me. That is what verse 31 says. God doesn’t bypass His law to justify us. God holds His integrity to His law when He justifies me through His Son Jesus Christ. Because, in His Son’s holy history, God has met every demand of the law for you and for me. That is the “good news” of the Gospel.

Wrong! read in context.... Paul just explained the purpose of the law ..was to condemn the whole world...when we uphold the law..we use it for its purpose and establish the truth that none can be justified by the law.

 

[Mitspa]

Dont forget, the law remains, only
the penalty for breaking it got removed from the christian


For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace

The law of Moses..remains for its purpose..but its not for the believer.

The law is not laid upon the righteous ..but the ungodly and sinner etc...

 

[senzi]

In rom 3:21_30 paul has been stressing the christian has a righteousness before God apart from the law, they are justified apart from the works of the law, and he keeps stressing it. What would some if his readers think? If we are saved solely by faith in christ_we are made righteous in Gods sight apart from observing the law, then we neednt worry about Gods laws, it doesnt matter if we break them for our righteousness is faith alone. Paul of course would have known that is the conclusion some would come to, hence verse 31

 

[senzi]

The law..ten commandments (written code)..was only a shadow of the Spirit...its is the Spirit of God that is the true "law" of God... the written code was only a type... for instance circumcision was only a shadow of the cutting away of the flesh from our hearts...the Ten Commandments only a shadow of the Love of God shed abroad in our hearts ...by the Holy spirit..

I completwly agree the law is fufilled by love God and love your neighbour and the placed within us by the,spirit doez not flash before us evwry waking minute saying. Thou shalt not.
However the moment you become a christian you know it is sinful to commit adultery, bear false witness, covet, steal etc. Only theough the law can you be conscious of your sin. And when the core of the new covenant is worded in Jeremiah 31&heb 8&it specifically states the law will be written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer. This mirrors ezekiel 36:26&27
The law cannot go anywhere, it remains unshakeable, but the christian is not under a righteousness/justification of obedience to it

 

[senzi]

The law of Moses..remains for its purpose..but its not for the believer.

The law is not laid upon the righteous ..but the ungodly and sinner etc...

I have to disagree in a sense. Love the lord your God with all your heart is for the believer. As is do not make any graven Images, do not take the lords name in vain. Do not lie, steal ,covet, commit adultery is also for the believer. What is not for the believer is the consequences of their imperfections concerning those laws. The non believer is under the law and must pay the price of their sin for they refused to accept the saviour from sin

 

[onlinebuddy]

So we too ha e put our faith in christ jesus that we might be justified by faith in christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
If whle we see to be justified in christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that christ promotes sin? Absolutely not, if I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker gal2:16&17
What justification is paul speaking of for he is speaking of a justification that clearly takes time. The moment you accept christ as your saviour you are justified in Gods sight for heaven. If you died the next day you would be accepted by God for heaven.
The justification paul is speaking of is being changwd from slaves of sin when we come to christ into slaves of righteousness leading to holiness. For we cannot eemain dominated by sin(being slaves of sin) but as paul says:
When we were yet without strength christ died for the ungodly rom5:6
We are weak, helpless babes in the faith when we come to christ. Much sin we can immediatley cease ouselves for we are not its slave, but what of the rest? What of the sin rhat may have dimibated our lives for years if not decades, how is this to be dealt with by us who are as yet weak and without strength? Paul tells us we seek to be justified in this sense by faith inchrist not striving in ourselves toobey the law(we do the woek to remove the sin) we trust in christ to cross over from ine state to the other
Why does paul ask the question does christ promote sin? Because while you are teusting cheist to get you to where you need to be it takes time. During this time if trusting jesus it will be evident youare a sinner. How will that look to someone who does not understand the gospel? Here before them is someone rejoicing in bei g saved while having evident sin in their life. Howe er, though the new convert rejoices in their salvation they hate the sin rhat still binds them for they have been born again. Bu they are still entitled to rejoice despite such imperfections otherwise they must go around in sackclith and ashes until they are as pure as the driven snow!
Immediatly after paul asks the question he answers it.
Absolutely not! If iI rebuild what iI have destroyed iI peove i am a lawbreaker. What has oaul cobstantly sought to destroy? A law of righteousness_striving to obey the law to be justified vefore God. Therefore if he rebuilt what he has sought to destroy he wiuld fail in his efforts and simy prove he was a lawbreaker
These verses from galatians, in my view show us so much as to hiw we must set out on the christian walk

that we might be justified by faith in christ and not by observing the law

Senzi, I agree with you. However, I'd like to know what you mean by "observing the law." Which law? Can you give an example of how a NT Christian can attempt to observe the law and thus reject grace?

not striving in ourselves toobey the law

Can you give an example of how one can strive to obey the law?

 

[senzi]

Senzi, I agree with you. However, I'd like to know what you mean by "observing the law." Which law? Can you give an example of how a NT Christian can attempt to observe the law and thus reject grace?
Can you give an example of how one can strive to obey the law?

I would love to upload a chapter of a book I wrote on the this subject, it attempts to explain in depth rom7:7_11 and how people today seek justification by observing the law, but I dont want to be pushy. So I will answer your question very briefly
A person becomes a christian, they have impure thoughts. They know such thoughts are wrong for lust is breaking the law of God(thou shalt not covet) they know God hates sin, they have ben born,again and are acutely aware they sin by having impure thoughts. Many then automatically try and defeat the Impure thoughts, believing they must do so to attain heaven. They have a noble heart, they do not want the sin, but they have now brought themselves under a justification of observing the law to attain heaven. Either they defeat the Impure thoughts(lust/coveting) or they are condemned.
They are not standing on a righteousness of faith in christ, but one of obedience to the law. They believe they must defeat the sin(lust) to attain heaven. What do you think paul was talking about in rom 7:7_11?

 

[senzi]

Senzi, I agree with you. However, I'd like to know what you mean by "observing the law." Which law? Can you give an example of how a NT Christian can attempt to observe the law and thus reject grace?
Can you give an example of how one can strive to obey the law?

At the age of ten I responded to an altar call and became a christian. As you were, I was convicted of my sin before God for the first time in my life. I was determined to live a pure life and not do things that were wrong(sin or break the law) The moment I accepted christ as my saviour I knew I was forgiven any wrongs in my life, I stood spotless before God, and I wanted to stay that way. The problem was however hard I tried I could not remain in this perfctly cleansed state. If I acted as I had before I became a christian I was consumed by guilt for I was sinning and I knew it. You see, I only had half a covenant, I had the law, I was conscious of my sin, but I did not then know my sins and lawless deeds would be remembered no more.
I became miserable and depressed I kept pleading with God to forgive me my sin and I believed he did, but the sin kept coming back and grew stronger in my life, I was becoming a worse sinner as time went on. All manner of ,concupiscence was aroused in me and I felt wretched and guilty becaus this was happening. After a few years I gave up with God, th ecoveting was out of control. How could I be a chrisian as that ws the case
I used to look back to a time before the law came ti me(i became a christian) I had felt alive then for then there was no condemnation, but when the commandment came sin(consciousness) sprang to life and Idied(spiritually) the commandment that was ordained to life(if I obeyed it) Ifound to be unto death,(for iI coyld nit keep it) sin had used ehat was goid and holy to deceive me and by it slew me. However, I knew there was nothing wring with Gods laws, it was my sin
I read about someine eho had the same experience as me, yet when he had it he was a pharisee at the time

 

[onlinebuddy]

I would love to upload a chapter of a book I wrote on the this subject, it attempts to explain in depth rom7:7_11 and how people today seek justification by observing the law, but I dont want to be pushy. So I will answer your question very briefly
A person becomes a christian, they have impure thoughts. They know such thoughts are wrong for lust is breaking the law of God(thou shalt not covet) they know God hates sin, they have ben born,again and are acutely aware they sin by having impure thoughts. Many then automatically try and defeat the Impure thoughts, believing they must do so to attain heaven. They have a noble heart, they do not want the sin, but they have now brought themselves under a justification of observing the law to attain heaven. Either they defeat the Impure thoughts(lust/coveting) or they are condemned.
They are not standing on a righteousness of faith in christ, but one of obedience to the law. They believe they must defeat the sin(lust) to attain heaven. What do you think paul was talking about in rom 7:7_11?

They are not standing on a righteousness of faith in christ, but one of obedience to the law.[/QUOTE?When struggling with sin, how can one stand on a righteousness of faith in Christ.

They believe they must defeat the sin(lust) to attain heaven. [/QUOTE?What then, must one do or think instead? Shouldn't they fight against that lustful thought in an attempt to stop it?