How to spot an anti legalist
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When you sin you sin in the light. However, there can be no darkness in the light, so the blood of Christ cleanses you from all sin. This is why the verse you are thinking about (walking in the light) says if we walk in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. How can it cleanse you from all sin if you can't sin while in the light? There wouldn't be sin to cleanse. We are continually washed/cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.
More bad exegetics! Pulling verses out of context!
Start with Matt 12. Your verse is contained in a passage -Matt 12:22-37
“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. [SUP]34 [/SUP]You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. [SUP]35 [/SUP]The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. [SUP]36 [/SUP]I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, [SUP]37 [/SUP]for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matt 12:33-37
First, note who Jesus is speaking to. Is it believers?? No, it is actually the Pharisees, who had condemned him earlier in that chapter for eating grain from the field on the Sabbath, and then for healing on the Sabbath.
"At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: [SUP]4 [/SUP]how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? [SUP]6 [/SUP]I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.” Matt 12:1-8
"Then he said to the man,“Stretch out your hand.” And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, healthy like the other. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him." Matt 12:9-13
Really, this chapter, if you read it in full, is the ULTIMATE chapter AGAINST LEGALISM!!
It is not to believers, or Jesus followers, it is to the Pharisees from start to end. It is warning them that they are pretending to be righteous and good, but they are not in God's eyes. Why, because they do not believe in him, and all their works, and all their good words will be worth nothing on judgment day!
"You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Matt 12:34
The heart means a heart relationship with Jesus Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives to transform us.
"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh" Ezek. 36:26
"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:9-10
"And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." 2 Cor. 3:3
Luke 6:43, is more of the same, part of the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus first tells people they need to be careful what teacher they are following. He is once again, in context of the whole chapter, addressing the Pharisees. That is what the three woes are about:
"[SUP]24 [/SUP]“But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Woe to you who are full now, for you shall be hungry.
“Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Woe to you, when all people speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets." Luke 6:24-26
"He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? [SUP]40 [/SUP]A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? [SUP]42 [/SUP]How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye." Luke 6:39-42
Jesus wants us to be careful about what teachers we follow. Many who teach about character are committed to developing character in a self-focused way, that is effective in getting what we want or in a way that takes the easiest path. Such an agenda drove the Pharisees, to try and control how others behaved. Zealous as they were blind. (see 7:39 above) Trying to build ethical character while staying self-focused is the essence of blindness! We must chose our models carefully, and Jesus is the one and only teacher who is worthy to be followed!
Getting back to Luke 6:44, three points need to be made with regards to the imagery of fruit and how we handle the question of judging other's fruits.
1. Jesus remarks here are not designed to examine individual moments in a life, but the pattern of a career long walk with God. This point is significant, because everyone sins, or perhaps even goes through a period of sin. Some people may deeply regret their failure afterwards, yet it can make them wonder if their "fruit" makes it impossible to know God.
That is what this constant harping on the law does to people who are weak in their faith. It does not bring them back to God, it condemns them and drives them away. It is a person becoming judge, jury and executioner, rather than letting God handle it, as he always does. And God can restore anyone. He will never leave or forsake his children. (Hebrews 13:5, Deut. 31:6
2. "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" 2 Cor. 13:5
The above passages indicates that although fruit was not a certain indicator, it can be a suggestive one. Paul was so concerned about the lack of fruit in the Corinthian church after a long period of time, that he asked them to examine themselves and see if they were in the faith. Paul noticed an incongruity between their walk, and their claim to have a regenerated heart. But although Paul raises the question, he does not state he knows the answer, but he raises the answer for their own reflection.
People here mostly do not know one another. We have no idea what fruit they are bearing in their lives. This continual haranguing of people, and insisting that grace = license by the legalists, is simply not Biblical. In the end, only God knows our hearts, our struggles, and what we were before salvation, and the work the Holy Spirit has done in our lives.
3. Scripture DOES seem clear that regenerated people do bear some fruit. Total absence of fruit, particularly love does raise the question about the presence of regeneration and faith. (Romans 8:1-16, James 2:14-26, 1 John 3:1-9).
This is NOT to confuse salvation by faith with salvation by works. Works do not save! Salvation is by faith through grace alone. But grace bestows a changed heart that accepts God as Father, and responds at least to some degree to his presence. If this seed of faith is present, it will sprout and grow in varying degrees in different people. Jesus is instructing his followers to grow in him, to listen to him. They do not need to worry about looking for fruit, they will be producing it by his grace!
K
No that is not what 1 John 1:7 says and no scripture says you are in the light when you sin, and you even stating there can be no darkness in the light because sin can not exist there.
Therefore you have to be drawn away from the Light in order to sin, which is what Apostle James says in James 1:14-16. If you claim a person sins in the Light that is the same as saying God tempted you to sin, and that is blasphemous according to scripture.
We have to confess that sin and return to the Lord (source of the light) in order to be cleansed of that sin by His blood.
Apostle Paul, James, John, and Peter all 4 say and show while walking in the Spirit/Light we can not sin, sin is darkness and the only way we can do an act of darkness is if we are drawn away from the Light.
Light and dark are complete opposites and can not co-exist at the same time, which is why Paul said either serve sin or serve righteousness we can not do both !!! Doing both would be serving two masters it just doesn't work !!!
Therefore you have to be drawn away from the Light in order to sin, which is what Apostle James says in James 1:14-16. If you claim a person sins in the Light that is the same as saying God tempted you to sin, and that is blasphemous according to scripture.
We have to confess that sin and return to the Lord (source of the light) in order to be cleansed of that sin by His blood.
Apostle Paul, James, John, and Peter all 4 say and show while walking in the Spirit/Light we can not sin, sin is darkness and the only way we can do an act of darkness is if we are drawn away from the Light.
Light and dark are complete opposites and can not co-exist at the same time, which is why Paul said either serve sin or serve righteousness we can not do both !!! Doing both would be serving two masters it just doesn't work !!!
that's right, because we have died to sin in Christ we cannot live any longer in it.
Romans 6:1-7 KJV
[1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him , that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Our abiding is an already accomplished fact as we have been grafted into Christ thru His death and resurrection.
Romans 6:1-7 KJV
[1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him , that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Our abiding is an already accomplished fact as we have been grafted into Christ thru His death and resurrection.
B
I guess this explains why my dad tried to molest me, but was not able. Instead he molested my little sister, she is so messed up in the head because of it (mental disability). He claimed what he was doing was alright, because he had been saved, and was now covered in the blood of Jesus, he was in the light!...Sorry, old wound..It still hurts...So was he in the right?
E
I'm really not taking sides here, having read on and off the course of some of these recent threads on legalism and the harshness of some of the posts
However, how do you deal with this:
8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
See, that is the major problem, at least I think it was, with Jasons post (who seems to have been absent some time now) and everyone arguing back and forth...Jason seemed to think you could loose your salvation ... in and out...several times a day
I mean, what on earth?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. KJV
If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. NAS
Are people thinking that God somehow is absent from darkness?
News flash: God either created or has allowed both light and darkness...get a grip!
I really am not sure what all is being said here and I am not exactly a twit...I think some things are being stretched to make a point and possibly by both sides
If people want to believe something exclusively of the other determination, that's fine...but let's not try to pull things out of the Bible that are not there or add to what is written
However, how do you deal with this:
8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
See, that is the major problem, at least I think it was, with Jasons post (who seems to have been absent some time now) and everyone arguing back and forth...Jason seemed to think you could loose your salvation ... in and out...several times a day
I mean, what on earth?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. KJV
If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. NAS
Are people thinking that God somehow is absent from darkness?
News flash: God either created or has allowed both light and darkness...get a grip!
I really am not sure what all is being said here and I am not exactly a twit...I think some things are being stretched to make a point and possibly by both sides
If people want to believe something exclusively of the other determination, that's fine...but let's not try to pull things out of the Bible that are not there or add to what is written
K
[h=1]1 Timothy 6:3-5[/h][h=1]3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,
5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.
From such withdraw yourself.
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2 Timothy 3:1-5[/h]3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power.
And from such people turn away!
5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.
From such withdraw yourself.
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2 Timothy 3:1-5[/h]3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power.
And from such people turn away!
K
Please do not bring up Jason here, and he was banned which is why he has not been around.
But he was a sinless perfectionist that constantly derailed threads to argue and debate with the OSASers........
It was a mess on both sides and I tried to get involved and break it down and squash the debate, but all that ended up happening is the OSASers started falsely accusing me of being a sinless perfectionist even though I did not agree with Jason. And Jason would falsely accuse me of allowing lewdness to continue which I also do not teach.
It was just a major mess and the side effects still float around to this day as a very few (4) still try and pin that false accusation on me. Bearing false witness on others is sinful actions and yet it happens a lot on here............So sad !!!
But he was a sinless perfectionist that constantly derailed threads to argue and debate with the OSASers........
It was a mess on both sides and I tried to get involved and break it down and squash the debate, but all that ended up happening is the OSASers started falsely accusing me of being a sinless perfectionist even though I did not agree with Jason. And Jason would falsely accuse me of allowing lewdness to continue which I also do not teach.
It was just a major mess and the side effects still float around to this day as a very few (4) still try and pin that false accusation on me. Bearing false witness on others is sinful actions and yet it happens a lot on here............So sad !!!
Over, and over and over! Verses pulled out of context. This is the complete basis for your incredibly bad soteriology.
Let's look once again at the verse in context!
"[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. [SUP]18 [/SUP]They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But that is not the way you learned Christ!— [SUP]21 [/SUP]assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, [SUP]22 [/SUP]to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,[SUP]23 [/SUP]and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness." Eph. 4:17-24.
First, put in context of the entire book of Ephesians. Paul starts the book with this reminder:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, [SUP]4 [/SUP]even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love [SUP]5 [/SUP]he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will," Eph. 1:3-5
We are adopted and chosen before the foundation of the world. You simply cannot look at one verse of Eph. 4, and make it into something it is not!
Ephesian 4 is talking about unity in the body of Christ. He is instructing believers about how to walk and follow Christ, in light of the amazing grace we were all given!
"But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift." Eph. 4:7
GRACE was GIVEN. Past tense! Not only that, but the word "given" in Greek is not only in the aorist, but it is in the passive tense. God gives us the grace. The word in verse 7 is ἐδόθη or edotha, and it is in the aorist, indicative, passive.
NOT something we do to ourselves!
The passage from 17-23 changes tune a bit. It is a admonition to believers to walk and follow after Jesus. Remember the situation in Ephesus. It had the biggest temple to Artemis in the world. In fact, it was one of the 7 wonders of the ancient world. These people were dedicated in their worship and also quite crazy. And as we can see in Acts 19, the silversmiths went after Paul because people were not buying their idols of Artemis. They whooped up the whole city against Paul, so there was a riot, and the town clerk had to calm the people down and send them on their way.
So Paul was sincerely directing these people, many of who might have claimed salvation, but were still acting like Christ was just another Artemis to worship (the goddess of fertility, by the way, and all the implications of that cult!) He was basically showing them that if they did not in any way act like a Christian, were they saved? He is not questioning that they have lost their salvation as evidenced by this, the very NEXT verse after the one Kenneth pulled out of context.
"assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, " Eph. 4:21
Paul is saying that he assumes they have heard of them and were taught in him. But it is clear from his phrasing, that he is not at all sure some of these Ephesians in the church have ever even heard of Jesus, let alone been saved! Maybe the church in Ephesus became the "church de jour" or the church of the day, for those who continually jumped to find the latest God, or manifestation of God. They attended, caused issues (I would say some of the women, who were priestess to Artemis, might have even knowingly infiltrated the church to cause problems!) So Paul is gently wondering if some of these people who seem to be like Gentiles, in the futility of their own minds, are actually saved. NOT that those who are saved can lose their salvation!
Please stop pulling verses out of context, Kenneth. This is getting tedious having to show you the real meaning for these out of context verses you keep posting, to support your simply wrong theology that a Christian can lose their salvation. I can do this all day, and maybe it helps a few people, but it is you continually with bad exegesis, which would be a simple problem to solve IF YOU WOULD JUST READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER AND THE VERSE IN CONTEXT before you post!! And learn about about the history behind each book in the Bible. A good study Bible would teach you that! And maybe read the whole Bible through about 10 or 50 times! It is surprising what a good read in context can be used of God to show you! Wait, I said that already! Sigh!
Let's look once again at the verse in context!
"[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. [SUP]18 [/SUP]They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But that is not the way you learned Christ!— [SUP]21 [/SUP]assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, [SUP]22 [/SUP]to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,[SUP]23 [/SUP]and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness." Eph. 4:17-24.
First, put in context of the entire book of Ephesians. Paul starts the book with this reminder:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, [SUP]4 [/SUP]even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love [SUP]5 [/SUP]he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will," Eph. 1:3-5
We are adopted and chosen before the foundation of the world. You simply cannot look at one verse of Eph. 4, and make it into something it is not!
Ephesian 4 is talking about unity in the body of Christ. He is instructing believers about how to walk and follow Christ, in light of the amazing grace we were all given!
"But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift." Eph. 4:7
GRACE was GIVEN. Past tense! Not only that, but the word "given" in Greek is not only in the aorist, but it is in the passive tense. God gives us the grace. The word in verse 7 is ἐδόθη or edotha, and it is in the aorist, indicative, passive.
NOT something we do to ourselves!
The passage from 17-23 changes tune a bit. It is a admonition to believers to walk and follow after Jesus. Remember the situation in Ephesus. It had the biggest temple to Artemis in the world. In fact, it was one of the 7 wonders of the ancient world. These people were dedicated in their worship and also quite crazy. And as we can see in Acts 19, the silversmiths went after Paul because people were not buying their idols of Artemis. They whooped up the whole city against Paul, so there was a riot, and the town clerk had to calm the people down and send them on their way.
So Paul was sincerely directing these people, many of who might have claimed salvation, but were still acting like Christ was just another Artemis to worship (the goddess of fertility, by the way, and all the implications of that cult!) He was basically showing them that if they did not in any way act like a Christian, were they saved? He is not questioning that they have lost their salvation as evidenced by this, the very NEXT verse after the one Kenneth pulled out of context.
"assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, " Eph. 4:21
Paul is saying that he assumes they have heard of them and were taught in him. But it is clear from his phrasing, that he is not at all sure some of these Ephesians in the church have ever even heard of Jesus, let alone been saved! Maybe the church in Ephesus became the "church de jour" or the church of the day, for those who continually jumped to find the latest God, or manifestation of God. They attended, caused issues (I would say some of the women, who were priestess to Artemis, might have even knowingly infiltrated the church to cause problems!) So Paul is gently wondering if some of these people who seem to be like Gentiles, in the futility of their own minds, are actually saved. NOT that those who are saved can lose their salvation!
Please stop pulling verses out of context, Kenneth. This is getting tedious having to show you the real meaning for these out of context verses you keep posting, to support your simply wrong theology that a Christian can lose their salvation. I can do this all day, and maybe it helps a few people, but it is you continually with bad exegesis, which would be a simple problem to solve IF YOU WOULD JUST READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER AND THE VERSE IN CONTEXT before you post!! And learn about about the history behind each book in the Bible. A good study Bible would teach you that! And maybe read the whole Bible through about 10 or 50 times! It is surprising what a good read in context can be used of God to show you! Wait, I said that already! Sigh!
B
I am very sorry that happened to you and your sister. Jesus can heal your sister too! To answer your question... <emphatically!> NO your father was NOT right... the blood of Jesus DOES NOT cover or justify a pedophile to practice in or commit incest! He could repent... and receive forgiveness... but some pretty CLEAR EVIDENCE of Godly sorrow should be accompanied by that before I would even begin to consider trusting anything he did or said.