How to spot an anti legalist
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B
You ARE STILL completely caught up in your agenda to argue philosophy of scripture and are NOT failing to follow the points, myself and others are discussing regarding faith and salvation of the SOULS OF MEN. IF you happen to have an AH-HA moment and recognize our focus... then you and I can continue further. Until then, I have done the best I can... which appears to have been insufficient...never the less... I am done.
B
One thing I have experienced in the churches I have gone to..none of them followed [h=1]Matthew 18:15-18King James Version (KJV)[/h]15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Not a one..They just shunned people, and started talking behind their backs, slandering them to others.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Not a one..They just shunned people, and started talking behind their backs, slandering them to others.
B
That is a grave error of every person involved...from leadership down and back up again... very bad. I have also been to churches who REFUSE to admonish and rebuke for "blatant" sin and that is just as bad. If people would just DO what God says to DO... it would unleash so much power! Who really benefits from the "power" being shackled by NOT doing as God instructs???
K
And they were wrong to up and just shun people immediately like that, because those are the steps that we are to take in the churches.
Apostle Paul even goes further on this in 1 Corinthians 5 which is a parallel teaching to this passage, and Paul shows that by ousted them and shunning them after taking those steps. That hopefully they will come to see the error of their way and repent. For if talking to them face to face and including others does not work, hard love has to take place !!!
Apostle Paul even goes further on this in 1 Corinthians 5 which is a parallel teaching to this passage, and Paul shows that by ousted them and shunning them after taking those steps. That hopefully they will come to see the error of their way and repent. For if talking to them face to face and including others does not work, hard love has to take place !!!
I'm glad we agree. 
I am following what you are saying. My "philosophy" of scripture is important for a Christian to reign in life and not live a life of defeat. So while you are trying to focus on getting men in, you must also learn to give them the keys to victory. Both are important. The souls of men that you are concerned for would greatly benefit from growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, seeing Him as Savior and also seeing the victory He has given them over sin that is done under grace and not Law.
I am following what you are saying. My "philosophy" of scripture is important for a Christian to reign in life and not live a life of defeat. So while you are trying to focus on getting men in, you must also learn to give them the keys to victory. Both are important. The souls of men that you are concerned for would greatly benefit from growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, seeing Him as Savior and also seeing the victory He has given them over sin that is done under grace and not Law.
First, sorry for being so behind on this thread. I only have so much energy these days, and getting through the day is the plan, not rebutting bad theology, as necessary as it is.
Well, this was an easy one to properly exegete! Simply read the verse before! (I did re-read the whole chapter, but these two verses go quite handily together)
"Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me." Col. 1:28-29
The key thing about these verses is NOT that we have to struggle to work for our salvation. Instead, Paul clearly says the work he is doing of teaching, warning, is to present BELIEVERS as mature.
The words in Greek are τέλειον ἐν Χριστῷ. So telion means "mature, perfect." Perfect, not in the modern scientific sense of every number perfect, but rather that we become mature. IN CHRIST!
So this verse is first ABOUT PAUL! It is about the work he is doing in the Colossian believers. It is not about us in this century, although it is valuable advice to those who are teaching and warning people. To realize that as teachers, we do need to find ways prompted by the Holy Spirit to move believers onto maturity.
Second, the verse is NOT about losing salvation at all. It is about moving people forward in the grace of God so they become strong in the Kingdom of God, to continue the work that Paul has done. It is about going from being justified, to being sanctified, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Third, is is NOT about your labour, Kenneth, to prevent people from losing their salvation! This chapter is about Paul, and the Colossians. he speaks to them of how he has prayed for them to be strengthened by the Holy Spirit (1:11) and especially, about how they have been saved!
And not just saved, but delivered from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of his beloved Son!
"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.[SUP]13 [/SUP]He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, [SUP]14 [/SUP]in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Col. 1:12-14
Do you really think that God moves people from "the kingdom of his beloved Son" back to the "domain of darkness" if they fail to achieve your standard of works/fruit?? Really a totally absurd and anti-scriptural thought. Totally misses the character of God!
But more important, this is chapter reveals one of the hymns of the earliest churches. Verses 1:15-20 are one of the strongest statements of high Christology in the Bible.
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." Col. 1:15-20.
One commentator calls the above passage- The Heart of the Gospel: The Supremacy of Christ in Creation and Redemption. It is so tragic to wrongly pull verse 1:29 out of context, make it about you, and fail to see the purpose of the entire chapter is to talk about Paul's struggle to present mature believers, and to present the most amazing proclamation of the glory of God!
Verses 1:24-29 are actually one sentence in the Greek. That means they go together. It means you can not pull them out and make them say what you want, Kenneth! Paul starts with HIS struggle:
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church," Col. 1:24.
He repeats his intent to take people who are believers, and present them mature, or sanctified, and struggles, but God is working within him. After all, how could he do it without the Holy Spirit?
"For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me." Col 1:29
So got it, Kenneth?? Not about you, not about saving people from losing their salvation because they are not working or producing enough fruit, but IN CONTEXT about Paul struggling to help these believers become mature.
My suggestion, is that you REALLY NEED to take a course on hermeneutics or Bible interpretation. That is one of the key things that helped me not just understand the bible better, as God wrote it to be, but also helped me get rid of my bad theology, by realizing that pulling verses out of context is a trick of the devil. And he has you snared badly in that trap, right now, my friend.
Well, this was an easy one to properly exegete! Simply read the verse before! (I did re-read the whole chapter, but these two verses go quite handily together)
"Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me." Col. 1:28-29
The key thing about these verses is NOT that we have to struggle to work for our salvation. Instead, Paul clearly says the work he is doing of teaching, warning, is to present BELIEVERS as mature.
The words in Greek are τέλειον ἐν Χριστῷ. So telion means "mature, perfect." Perfect, not in the modern scientific sense of every number perfect, but rather that we become mature. IN CHRIST!
So this verse is first ABOUT PAUL! It is about the work he is doing in the Colossian believers. It is not about us in this century, although it is valuable advice to those who are teaching and warning people. To realize that as teachers, we do need to find ways prompted by the Holy Spirit to move believers onto maturity.
Second, the verse is NOT about losing salvation at all. It is about moving people forward in the grace of God so they become strong in the Kingdom of God, to continue the work that Paul has done. It is about going from being justified, to being sanctified, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Third, is is NOT about your labour, Kenneth, to prevent people from losing their salvation! This chapter is about Paul, and the Colossians. he speaks to them of how he has prayed for them to be strengthened by the Holy Spirit (1:11) and especially, about how they have been saved!
And not just saved, but delivered from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of his beloved Son!
"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.[SUP]13 [/SUP]He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, [SUP]14 [/SUP]in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Col. 1:12-14
Do you really think that God moves people from "the kingdom of his beloved Son" back to the "domain of darkness" if they fail to achieve your standard of works/fruit?? Really a totally absurd and anti-scriptural thought. Totally misses the character of God!
But more important, this is chapter reveals one of the hymns of the earliest churches. Verses 1:15-20 are one of the strongest statements of high Christology in the Bible.
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." Col. 1:15-20.
One commentator calls the above passage- The Heart of the Gospel: The Supremacy of Christ in Creation and Redemption. It is so tragic to wrongly pull verse 1:29 out of context, make it about you, and fail to see the purpose of the entire chapter is to talk about Paul's struggle to present mature believers, and to present the most amazing proclamation of the glory of God!
Verses 1:24-29 are actually one sentence in the Greek. That means they go together. It means you can not pull them out and make them say what you want, Kenneth! Paul starts with HIS struggle:
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church," Col. 1:24.
He repeats his intent to take people who are believers, and present them mature, or sanctified, and struggles, but God is working within him. After all, how could he do it without the Holy Spirit?
"For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me." Col 1:29
So got it, Kenneth?? Not about you, not about saving people from losing their salvation because they are not working or producing enough fruit, but IN CONTEXT about Paul struggling to help these believers become mature.
My suggestion, is that you REALLY NEED to take a course on hermeneutics or Bible interpretation. That is one of the key things that helped me not just understand the bible better, as God wrote it to be, but also helped me get rid of my bad theology, by realizing that pulling verses out of context is a trick of the devil. And he has you snared badly in that trap, right now, my friend.
K
That right here that you said is a major issue with some churches now days, as they are more interested in putting and keeping butts in the seats then to preach the full truth.
This is why we had an issue awhile back of watered down preaching from the pulpits, as in the 80's it was common to go to church and hear fire and brimstone teaching along with the teachings of Grace. Then that way of preaching went away except for a few, and now days there is a rise in those teachings again because they have realized the mistake of moving away from them since things are happening at a faster pace now days to fulfill prophecy !!!
This is why we had an issue awhile back of watered down preaching from the pulpits, as in the 80's it was common to go to church and hear fire and brimstone teaching along with the teachings of Grace. Then that way of preaching went away except for a few, and now days there is a rise in those teachings again because they have realized the mistake of moving away from them since things are happening at a faster pace now days to fulfill prophecy !!!
K
Everything that is taught in the bible is for us in this century, either for understanding, knowledge, correction, learning how to live our life properly for Christ, and so on................
To claim it is for Paul alone is bad exegesis as we are clearly told by him more than once that we are to imitate him as he imitates Christ.
Therefore if you are imitating Paul, you are imitating Christ, and thus doing as God commanded !!!
It is about the Holy Spirit who's works work through us, which means our actions of the things we do are because of Him working through us. You can not use this to excuse disobedience !!!
You still are taking and misplacing the blame and it has nothing to do with living up to my standard of fruits, and it is obvious by your reply you aren't keeping up or paying attention to what is being said or you would not make statements like this on me.
The Lord our God set the standards not me, and how many times did He say in His Own Word that He would blot someone's name out of the Book of Life? I know of 3 places He said this !!!
Please stop your false allegations on me because I have never said the things you are saying, except for the fact that people can walk away from the faith and not return to the Lord and thus not receive eternal life. If you disagree with this I am sorry but the Word of God supports this, as Apostle Paul repeats this falling/departing away from the faith and not continuing in it multiple times !!!
Take the Word of God for what it says and no I do not need a course in hemeneutics, and I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to use your Seminary education to act like you are better then me !!!
The devil does not have me at all, as the Holy Spirit directs my path !!!
Please refrain from such false accusations, because it could be actually your courses that lead you from the truth to complicate the word more than it was intended.
Remember the bible says simplicity that is in Jesus, not so dang difficult you have to be a college scholar to understand !!!
To claim it is for Paul alone is bad exegesis as we are clearly told by him more than once that we are to imitate him as he imitates Christ.
Therefore if you are imitating Paul, you are imitating Christ, and thus doing as God commanded !!!
It is about the Holy Spirit who's works work through us, which means our actions of the things we do are because of Him working through us. You can not use this to excuse disobedience !!!
You still are taking and misplacing the blame and it has nothing to do with living up to my standard of fruits, and it is obvious by your reply you aren't keeping up or paying attention to what is being said or you would not make statements like this on me.
The Lord our God set the standards not me, and how many times did He say in His Own Word that He would blot someone's name out of the Book of Life? I know of 3 places He said this !!!
Please stop your false allegations on me because I have never said the things you are saying, except for the fact that people can walk away from the faith and not return to the Lord and thus not receive eternal life. If you disagree with this I am sorry but the Word of God supports this, as Apostle Paul repeats this falling/departing away from the faith and not continuing in it multiple times !!!
Take the Word of God for what it says and no I do not need a course in hemeneutics, and I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to use your Seminary education to act like you are better then me !!!
The devil does not have me at all, as the Holy Spirit directs my path !!!
Please refrain from such false accusations, because it could be actually your courses that lead you from the truth to complicate the word more than it was intended.
Remember the bible says simplicity that is in Jesus, not so dang difficult you have to be a college scholar to understand !!!
