If Noah's Ark is a true story...
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K
Let's get in order what my position is. I believe the Flood was a worldwide event, and destruction was total, except for isolated pockets. (Call that A). Two others have been advanced: That there were no isolated pockets, the destruction was totally worldwide (B). That it was only local, this is your position (C). The people who believe B have provided so many Scriptures, it's ridiculous for you to ask me. I provided my evidence against them. Any of their Scriptures prove you wrong. You are asking me to prove a position I do not espouse.
It is clear, the Bible says that the "earth" was the target of destruction. The Scriptures are clear on this. The only question is whether Hebrew "all" means "all" or "most". My evidence is historical, and demonstrates it only means "most".
Nevertheless, you want Scriptures, I will give you a few, and you will disagree with each. You argument is with the people who believe B. The first proof is Gen. 5, just read how long everyone lived. If each child has just 2 children and no one ws dying, and they marry at age 14, in that time you get 2 to the 63rd power people. This is about 1,000 to the sixth power, or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000. This is a billion times the population of earth now. Even if you go with the 120 year figure of Gen. 6, 2 to the 120th power is 10 to the twelfth, which is the 140 times the population of earth now. It's pretty clear each one had "sons and daughters" so they had more than two children. Since there is no mention of killing again until Lamech, there could not have been too much of it. It's thus seems pretty clear that some of them were dying early. But even allowing for all that, they would not have all fit in the area you claimed. Sheer numbers force the migration.
The next proof is Gen. 6:1, which demonstrates that your assertion, that they did not follow God's command to multiply until after the flood, is incorrect.
Finally, Gen. 10:5 tells us that within the second generation after Japheth (who got off the ark with his wife) there were already many lands inhabited by Gentiles, and they already had separate families, languages, and nations. This is clearly a different allotment of the lands from that of Dt. 32:8, domnstrating that there was another plan before the Flood (God's), and that could only have been pre-flood, since the new one happened very soon after.
Although it is beyond me why you will not accept historical evidence of history, but insist the matter be proved from the Bible, which is not primarily a historical book.
It is clear, the Bible says that the "earth" was the target of destruction. The Scriptures are clear on this. The only question is whether Hebrew "all" means "all" or "most". My evidence is historical, and demonstrates it only means "most".
Nevertheless, you want Scriptures, I will give you a few, and you will disagree with each. You argument is with the people who believe B. The first proof is Gen. 5, just read how long everyone lived. If each child has just 2 children and no one ws dying, and they marry at age 14, in that time you get 2 to the 63rd power people. This is about 1,000 to the sixth power, or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000. This is a billion times the population of earth now. Even if you go with the 120 year figure of Gen. 6, 2 to the 120th power is 10 to the twelfth, which is the 140 times the population of earth now. It's pretty clear each one had "sons and daughters" so they had more than two children. Since there is no mention of killing again until Lamech, there could not have been too much of it. It's thus seems pretty clear that some of them were dying early. But even allowing for all that, they would not have all fit in the area you claimed. Sheer numbers force the migration.
The next proof is Gen. 6:1, which demonstrates that your assertion, that they did not follow God's command to multiply until after the flood, is incorrect.
Finally, Gen. 10:5 tells us that within the second generation after Japheth (who got off the ark with his wife) there were already many lands inhabited by Gentiles, and they already had separate families, languages, and nations. This is clearly a different allotment of the lands from that of Dt. 32:8, domnstrating that there was another plan before the Flood (God's), and that could only have been pre-flood, since the new one happened very soon after.
Although it is beyond me why you will not accept historical evidence of history, but insist the matter be proved from the Bible, which is not primarily a historical book.
It seems the evidence may indicate that, yes.
Also, while reading the Bible ask yourself why is it limited to the viewpoint of a person
in the middle east 2,000 years ago? Everything seems to take place within a 5 mile
radius.
Trusting someone else's revelation is no longer a revelation at all, it is hearsay.
Also, while reading the Bible ask yourself why is it limited to the viewpoint of a person
in the middle east 2,000 years ago? Everything seems to take place within a 5 mile
radius.
Trusting someone else's revelation is no longer a revelation at all, it is hearsay.
T
Scientist's are finding many more sediment deposits farther and farther away from the Biblical Floods origin . The Bible clearly states , that not only did it rain from the sky , but that the , ' Fountains of the Deep ' opened up from inside the earth . Lending far more credence to the evidence of a World Wide Flood than science had first speculated . I have visited the Paluxy River Basin in Glen Rose Texas , and I have seen the evidence of a sudden castostrophic deluge , within the river basin . It is unmistakable . Dinosaur prints in the river bed are petrofied next to the clear footprints of a human being . If you have the time , I urge you to visit the Creation Evidence Museum in Glen Rose Texas . It will open your eyes....
S
Pretty sure more than one person wrote the Bilble. Not really sure when other civilazitions had a written languge. American Indians did not have one so it would probably be hard to read their account.
Trusting in Truth and proven facts fulfillment of phrophacies is not hearsay.
So if you dont find the Bible has the inspired word of God why are you on this site?
Trusting in Truth and proven facts fulfillment of phrophacies is not hearsay.
So if you dont find the Bible has the inspired word of God why are you on this site?
Unless of course it's something you WANT to hear, or it can conveniently explain things that couldn't be explains at the time. Those people had no knowledge of the cause of earthquakes, volcanoes, floods, diseases etc. so the only catch all answer was of course a supernatural entity causing it all.
I dont doubt that a major flood happened in history.
Major floods and disasters happen now, but now we realise the cause. These events will not be read about in 2000 years as an act of god because we now know why these things happen.
I dont doubt that a major flood happened in history.
Major floods and disasters happen now, but now we realise the cause. These events will not be read about in 2000 years as an act of god because we now know why these things happen.
T
The Bible speaks of things that could not have been known to the ordinary mind at that time , such as the firmaments of the heavens being set in their place . Also remember , everything in the Bible is stated truly , but not everything is a true statement . I don't believe this to be the truth in as far as God providing a factual statement about the flood , ( it can be taken entirely in context , and evidence is being discovered more and more , as to the factual account of a World Wide , Biblical Flood . Nothing that happened in as far as Noahs Flood was concerned , is impossible to believe ) , but I could use this theory as far as the book of Job is concerned . Many untrue statements were given by Jobs' friends as to the true nature of God , and about Gods motives . When it is God providing information , it can be taken as literal unless otherwise stated . If it is mans account , it can be taken as literal only if it isn't coming from an antagonizing standpoint , ie the devil , evil motives , or anyone who may be speaking from a spirit , other than the Spirit of God .
Of my vast knowledge accumulated in my free time over the last couple of days I've come to the understanding that carbon has a half life of less than 6000 years and it's accuracy is dependant on a consistent blend of carbon 12 and 14 isotopes degrading and becoming CO2 and absorbed by plantlife. However consistency is rare. Anyway thanks for the link but like I stated I'm not defending a global flood scenario. Do you disagree that a mass flood would result in the production of oil and fossils? If you read Genesis as intended; God is the Creator and at one point in the not so distant past He caused a flood that wiped out a good chunk of the known world; I think it would be less of an argument. I am curious however about radioactive decay. How are you sure that the half life of some elements are without a doubt Billions of years? I know how they figured it for carbon but it seems there is quite possibly too many variables to determine this emphatically. You would even have to know without a doubt the atmosphere composition, the resulting pressure, the effect that the sun's radiation would have given that information. As well temperatures and the state of the elements (liquid, solid, gas). Then although your ethics might be admirable, there still might be some who are less than professional with results that contradict their hypothesis. Thanks for the science lesson but even if there are loose ends in Genesis I still believe what I believe. I've had too many "coincidences" to ignore. I hope one day you expand your horizons and except the possibilities that science doesn't have all of the answers and that some things are spiritually discerned. At the risk of being off topic I am interested in your theory on aliens or ufos. Perhaps in another thread.
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Actually, I'm looking for you to scripturally defend your world-view.
'Kol erets' (whole earth) has numerous Hebrew examples which do not pertain to a global event.
Pre-flood archeological evidence does not warrant a large population as is mathematically possible.
We must remember that murder was already mainstay in the world ever since Cain killed his brother back in Gen 4. Four times God speaks to Cain to warn against him carrying out his evil and to elicit responsibility.
In each time, Cain rejected God. Even upon Cain’s banishment he expressed fear of being KILLED, himself!
When Lamech arrived, murder had become so prevalent that it was even bragged about (Gen 4.23 -24).
By the time that Noah arrived onto the scene, God is so disgusted with His crowning creation (mankind) that He seeks to put an end to the evil and murder that they were committing by first limiting their future lifespan to 120 years (Gen 6.3).
God tells us that mankind’s only thoughts were evil all daylong (Gen 6.5). The earth was corrupted and filled with VIOLENCE (Gen 6.11 - 13).
Gen 10 simply lists the generations of the descedents of the ones on the Ark.
'Kol erets' (whole earth) has numerous Hebrew examples which do not pertain to a global event.
Pre-flood archeological evidence does not warrant a large population as is mathematically possible.
We must remember that murder was already mainstay in the world ever since Cain killed his brother back in Gen 4. Four times God speaks to Cain to warn against him carrying out his evil and to elicit responsibility.
In each time, Cain rejected God. Even upon Cain’s banishment he expressed fear of being KILLED, himself!
When Lamech arrived, murder had become so prevalent that it was even bragged about (Gen 4.23 -24).
By the time that Noah arrived onto the scene, God is so disgusted with His crowning creation (mankind) that He seeks to put an end to the evil and murder that they were committing by first limiting their future lifespan to 120 years (Gen 6.3).
God tells us that mankind’s only thoughts were evil all daylong (Gen 6.5). The earth was corrupted and filled with VIOLENCE (Gen 6.11 - 13).
Gen 10 simply lists the generations of the descedents of the ones on the Ark.
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Why did God need a boat. He don't need a boat. Jesus walked on the water and so did Peter. The boat was symbolic of Christ. It was also, given to show that God will protect or provide an escape for those that trust in Him. Can we explain every miracle of God, certainly not. Doe's it disprove His existence, certainly not. Many people look at the acts of God and say that's impossible so, therefore it is a lie or a myth. The first step of becoming a believer is accepting Him At his word. Evidence comes after faith and no other way and to everyone it is given a measure of faith. Acting on that faith is the key.
How can we believe that the first born of person in Egypt died but the the people of Israel were protected if we do not take it by faith. We are saved through grace by faith. We cannot even understand the scripture unless opened by faith.
The religious leaders of Israel were visited by The Son of God, The Messiah and were so blind by Humanism, Intellect, the most educated people in the world on the scripture. That, they refused and Him and killed Him. We cannot even fathom the wonderful works of God. I take it by faith and trust that His word is true and sound.
How can we believe that the first born of person in Egypt died but the the people of Israel were protected if we do not take it by faith. We are saved through grace by faith. We cannot even understand the scripture unless opened by faith.
The religious leaders of Israel were visited by The Son of God, The Messiah and were so blind by Humanism, Intellect, the most educated people in the world on the scripture. That, they refused and Him and killed Him. We cannot even fathom the wonderful works of God. I take it by faith and trust that His word is true and sound.
What do scientist know. How can they know anything that God has not revealed. Where does knowledge come from. How can a man find out certain things. Are we so smart that our children become smarter. Really, why do we increase in knowledge. Does the monkey get smarter. Why don't they build a house with heat and AC. Why can't a rat build a fire to warm himself. If we are so smart why do we have problems. Why can't we solve every issue that we face. The human mind is so brilliant, why do we as a society have so many problems. It seems tome that our brilliance has led us to depravity. I speak as an American. I used to go to the airport and walk on the airplane, now I'm almost strip searched and it takes hours. Where is our wonderful knowledge. We left it when we left the word of God.
K
Actually, I'm looking for you to scripturally defend your world-view.
I can't tell if you are satisfied or not. My world view is way bigger than just a flood.
'Kol erets' (whole earth) has numerous Hebrew examples which do not pertain to a global event.
I agree. That's my point. "Kol" does have the significance that "all" does in English. If it did, it would force globalism.
Pre-flood archeological evidence does not warrant a large population as is mathematically possible.
But without an understanding of the flood, you cannot rule out destruction of much of the evidence by the flood itself. The bible itself calls it mobal, which is a word that means "causing vibrations". So the Bible itself tells us that it was more than a flood. Without knowing what that "more" part is, we cannot say what it might have destroyed.
We must remember that murder was already mainstay in the world ever since Cain killed his brother back in Gen 4. Four times God speaks to Cain to warn against him carrying out his evil and to elicit responsibility.
I could challenge you to prove that from the Bible. You still have the statement that people who were not killed were living to be 120 years old, and that the names of those who are listed lived several hundred years each and bore "sons and daughters" implying at least four children each.
In each time, Cain rejected God. Even upon Cain’s banishment he expressed fear of being KILLED, himself!
When Lamech arrived, murder had become so prevalent that it was even bragged about (Gen 4.23 -24).
Do you know the Jewish legend that says that it was Lamech who killed him? That's what Gen. 4:23 is really supposed to be about. Lamech is blind and thinks he is shooting a deer. When he realizes he killed Cain, he accidentally kills his son, who was guiding the blind hunter. Similarly, Ovid gives us the Greek legend that part of the sin that made God angry was killing people to feed the giants. Either legend inmplies that murder was rare for quite a long time. Neither legend contradicts anything in Scripture. You cannot prove that it was prevalent, as this historical legendary evidence survived Scriptural challenges for centuries.
By the time that Noah arrived onto the scene, God is so disgusted with His crowning creation (mankind) that He seeks to put an end to the evil and murder that they were committing by first limiting their future lifespan to 120 years (Gen 6.3).
Then until that time, it was way longer, and makes the population that much higher. I read this backward to an earlier date, to get a more conservative estimate,
God tells us that mankind’s only thoughts were evil all daylong (Gen 6.5). The earth was corrupted and filled with VIOLENCE (Gen 6.11 - 13).
Violence is not murder. In context, it is corruption of God's way upon earth.
Gen 10 simply lists the generations of the descedents of the ones on the Ark.
Maybe, but they were still referring to differences of languages-families-nations. If your idea is going to work, the confusion of languages at Babel had to be done by family. That seems unlikely. It seems way more likely that everyone had two languages, a native tribal language and a common world language. There are also mathematical rules for dispersion and change of language, and those are verified by the chronology in the Bible, if you believe in worldwide dispersion. Part of my worldview is to these kind of cross-checks.
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I can't tell if you are satisfied or not. My world view is way bigger than just a flood.
'Kol erets' (whole earth) has numerous Hebrew examples which do not pertain to a global event.
I agree. That's my point. "Kol" does have the significance that "all" does in English. If it did, it would force globalism.
Pre-flood archeological evidence does not warrant a large population as is mathematically possible.
But without an understanding of the flood, you cannot rule out destruction of much of the evidence by the flood itself. The bible itself calls it mobal, which is a word that means "causing vibrations". So the Bible itself tells us that it was more than a flood. Without knowing what that "more" part is, we cannot say what it might have destroyed.
We must remember that murder was already mainstay in the world ever since Cain killed his brother back in Gen 4. Four times God speaks to Cain to warn against him carrying out his evil and to elicit responsibility.
I could challenge you to prove that from the Bible. You still have the statement that people who were not killed were living to be 120 years old, and that the names of those who are listed lived several hundred years each and bore "sons and daughters" implying at least four children each.
In each time, Cain rejected God. Even upon Cain’s banishment he expressed fear of being KILLED, himself!
When Lamech arrived, murder had become so prevalent that it was even bragged about (Gen 4.23 -24).
Do you know the Jewish legend that says that it was Lamech who killed him? That's what Gen. 4:23 is really supposed to be about. Lamech is blind and thinks he is shooting a deer. When he realizes he killed Cain, he accidentally kills his son, who was guiding the blind hunter. Similarly, Ovid gives us the Greek legend that part of the sin that made God angry was killing people to feed the giants. Either legend inmplies that murder was rare for quite a long time. Neither legend contradicts anything in Scripture. You cannot prove that it was prevalent, as this historical legendary evidence survived Scriptural challenges for centuries.
By the time that Noah arrived onto the scene, God is so disgusted with His crowning creation (mankind) that He seeks to put an end to the evil and murder that they were committing by first limiting their future lifespan to 120 years (Gen 6.3).
Then until that time, it was way longer, and makes the population that much higher. I read this backward to an earlier date, to get a more conservative estimate,
God tells us that mankind’s only thoughts were evil all daylong (Gen 6.5). The earth was corrupted and filled with VIOLENCE (Gen 6.11 - 13).
Violence is not murder. In context, it is corruption of God's way upon earth.
Gen 10 simply lists the generations of the descedents of the ones on the Ark.
Maybe, but they were still referring to differences of languages-families-nations. If your idea is going to work, the confusion of languages at Babel had to be done by family. That seems unlikely. It seems way more likely that everyone had two languages, a native tribal language and a common world language. There are also mathematical rules for dispersion and change of language, and those are verified by the chronology in the Bible, if you believe in worldwide dispersion. Part of my worldview is to these kind of cross-checks.
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T
I think people , especially those who have been educated well beyond high school , tend to learn themselves into a box . When we are dicussing the Creator of the Universe , we can develope a bad habit of staying within the guidelines of our finite knowledge . Having nowhere near a billionth of all the knowledge in the universe , even the part of the universe that we know about , we can set ourselves up as arbitrators over the origins of time and space . We search and toil and spend money and time , in an effort to justify our insistance that man cannot be so unique , as to warrant the singular attention of an all Powerful , all Knowing God . If this is true , then that would only conclude the veracity of a Mighty Creator . If this to is true , then we have to acknowledge that the Book that He gave us , which has remained virtually unchanged , despite numerous translations and many many attempts to stamp out it's very existence , is true in it's most literal sense . God is a Big God . He simply flipped the switch on a barren planet and brought it to life . He formed man out of the dust of the ground . Man fell . Violence filled the Earth as a result of sin . God spoke to a rightous man named Noah , and instructed him to bulid an ark . Noah did what God told him to do . Things began to happen just as God said that they would , and Planet Earth was flooded with water . Every living thing that moved upon the Earth was destroyed ( Gen 7:21 ) but Noah and his family were saved . The Bible doesn't place as much emphasis on timeframe as it does on substance , but you also have to realize , that it wasn't written in chapter and verse .
