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Free choice has never been ours. We are loaded with prejudice, upbringing, environment, false idea, etc. Only the grace of God can break through and bring us to Him.
And who are you to decide whether a man was truly saved? Or on what God will do in the future for any who have erred? God says that when He saves, He saves to the end.
And who are you to decide whether a man was truly saved? Or on what God will do in the future for any who have erred? God says that when He saves, He saves to the end.
D
I see your bad behavior on most threads. Especially in your constant desire to flaunt the fact that somehow another you get to keep preaching your hypergrace by constantly nanny nanny boo booing other threads.
It's really old, Bruce. Two wrongs don't make a right, and you're constantly pretending it's not you doing the wronging too.
Did you even notice this wasn't about hypergrace before you launched into your defense-of-hypergrace? (I know you did, but waited.)
And, yeah. I know this will bring about yet another defense from you, but this wasn't really to you. This was so the new people get wise to your game before they think you are sweet and harmless.
It's really old, Bruce. Two wrongs don't make a right, and you're constantly pretending it's not you doing the wronging too.
Did you even notice this wasn't about hypergrace before you launched into your defense-of-hypergrace? (I know you did, but waited.)
And, yeah. I know this will bring about yet another defense from you, but this wasn't really to you. This was so the new people get wise to your game before they think you are sweet and harmless.
Very good observation. Scripture clearly teaches that the natural man does not receive the things that the Spirit teaches nor can he comprehend them. These things are discerned only through the Holy Spirit. Spiritual things are foolishness to the unsaved natural man. The first thing a natural man comes to understand is the gospel message and that is where the Holy Spirit ministers to his darkened heart and brings the convincing of sin, righteousness and judgment. This is the Light that lighteth everyman that comes into the world.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You cannot do anything. Only God through His word is able to bring a man to Christ. For you to add burdens that you cannot bear on you own accord is exactly what the Pharisees did and Jesus condemned them for doing it.
We are to be witnesses of what Christ has done for us. We are to testify of the saving grace of God. We are not able to save anybody. Only God can save. Only God can change the heart of a man. Scripture tells us that the heart of man is wicked and we cannot know it.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We are to be witnesses of what Christ has done for us. We are to testify of the saving grace of God. We are not able to save anybody. Only God can save. Only God can change the heart of a man. Scripture tells us that the heart of man is wicked and we cannot know it.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
P
On the OSAS side, it gets brought up because of a fundamental misunderstanding of Paul's faith vs. works argument.
On the non-OSAS side, it gets brought up because some Christians use OSAS as a license to be works-less. IOW, these Christians who do that use OSAS to turn the grace of God into a license to sin.
Yes, make sure you are saved as evidenced by what you do. That is what the Bible teaches. I don't see any message in the Bible about taking comfort in having a faith that is devoid of works. But you'd think by listening to OSASer's that the Bible is full of these comforting exhortations. Quite the opposite is true.
It never did until H-grace doctrine started raising it's ugly head in the church again. It deceives people into thinking that dead faith will save you on the Day of Judgment. Traditional Calvinistic OSAS doesn't bother me much because at least it defends believing to the very end in order to be saved in the end, and having a life of righteous work to prove you are saved and will be spared on the Day of Judgment. In that doctrine, the only thing that is in dispute is whether or not a person can stop believing. I don't get my undies in a bunch over that. Ultimately, you alone have to face that question in the moment of the testing of your faith.
God tells us how we can know we are saved. Our works show us whether we are prepared to meet God at the Judgment or not. That's one of the reasons why we are exhorted to work--to make our calling and election sure to ourselves.
Sin is only the symptom. The real issue in regard to OSAS is if you are believing to the very end to be saved in the very end. Calvinist OSAS says you must believe to the very end, and prove it by your works. H-grace OSAS says it doesn't matter a flip what you believe or do after you confess Christ. You can even deny him and that doctrine says you are still saved. That's the foolish thinking that has to be openly confronted and defeated by sound Biblical facts.
That is actually what the Bible says to do--make your calling and election sure, not take comfort in a cold, dead confession of Christ you made 30 years ago.
As long as you're clinging to the grace of God's forgiveness when you fail you are in no danger whatsoever of losing the grace of God in salvation. Only an underlying unbelief and rejection of Christ can cause you to lose your salvation. In that case, the outward sin is just the evidence of that rejection and trampling of the Christ that saved you.
The only failing that matters in regard to OSAS is whether or not you are continuing to trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Only an outright rejection of Christ can cause one to lose their salvation. The struggles of growing up into the stature of Christ do not cause you to lose the grace of God in salvation. Only outright unbelief can do that.
So the question of whether OSAS is true or not comes down to a single question: "Can the true believer ever stop believing?" We know what the Bible says will happen if he does stop believing. What is not so certain is whether real believers can stop believing. Are the Biblical warnings to keep believing sufficient to keep the true believer always believing?
On the non-OSAS side, it gets brought up because some Christians use OSAS as a license to be works-less. IOW, these Christians who do that use OSAS to turn the grace of God into a license to sin.
Yes, make sure you are saved as evidenced by what you do. That is what the Bible teaches. I don't see any message in the Bible about taking comfort in having a faith that is devoid of works. But you'd think by listening to OSASer's that the Bible is full of these comforting exhortations. Quite the opposite is true.
It never did until H-grace doctrine started raising it's ugly head in the church again. It deceives people into thinking that dead faith will save you on the Day of Judgment. Traditional Calvinistic OSAS doesn't bother me much because at least it defends believing to the very end in order to be saved in the end, and having a life of righteous work to prove you are saved and will be spared on the Day of Judgment. In that doctrine, the only thing that is in dispute is whether or not a person can stop believing. I don't get my undies in a bunch over that. Ultimately, you alone have to face that question in the moment of the testing of your faith.
God tells us how we can know we are saved. Our works show us whether we are prepared to meet God at the Judgment or not. That's one of the reasons why we are exhorted to work--to make our calling and election sure to ourselves.
Sin is only the symptom. The real issue in regard to OSAS is if you are believing to the very end to be saved in the very end. Calvinist OSAS says you must believe to the very end, and prove it by your works. H-grace OSAS says it doesn't matter a flip what you believe or do after you confess Christ. You can even deny him and that doctrine says you are still saved. That's the foolish thinking that has to be openly confronted and defeated by sound Biblical facts.
That is actually what the Bible says to do--make your calling and election sure, not take comfort in a cold, dead confession of Christ you made 30 years ago.
As long as you're clinging to the grace of God's forgiveness when you fail you are in no danger whatsoever of losing the grace of God in salvation. Only an underlying unbelief and rejection of Christ can cause you to lose your salvation. In that case, the outward sin is just the evidence of that rejection and trampling of the Christ that saved you.
Anyone else feel free to add your failings (otherwise I will feel like I'm the only one. 
)
and maybe instead of pointless OSAS debates, we can actually help each other out.
)and maybe instead of pointless OSAS debates, we can actually help each other out.
So the question of whether OSAS is true or not comes down to a single question: "Can the true believer ever stop believing?" We know what the Bible says will happen if he does stop believing. What is not so certain is whether real believers can stop believing. Are the Biblical warnings to keep believing sufficient to keep the true believer always believing?
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This is quite true. The perverted grace that is being taught states matter of factually that justification, sanctification, and glorification are of no concern anymore, because grace alone covers you....Hillsong Pastor Carl Lentz is not hiding anymore and said this very thing last week in his service...
paraphrased....We do not need the old rules governing how we grow in God, things like justification and sanctification because its all included in grace....its not about what we do in our lives or religious rules...God can use a transgendered Gay man, to spread his Gospel just as much as Pastor Brian or me...
no sir, it is not....and no he Won't...
paraphrased....We do not need the old rules governing how we grow in God, things like justification and sanctification because its all included in grace....its not about what we do in our lives or religious rules...God can use a transgendered Gay man, to spread his Gospel just as much as Pastor Brian or me...
no sir, it is not....and no he Won't...
I think you are intellectually, emotionally and spiritually a deceiver of the highest order....You claim LOUDLY & PROUDLY in other places on this chat board, that you adhere strictly to reformed Calvinist election and predestination and even admit to the possibility of double predestination and then comment to others that its about a persons free choice.....
Lady's do not outright lie...but then again as you also so proudly proclaim to those you rip into pieces...you are no lady....
Yeah, no kidding...
Lady's do not outright lie...but then again as you also so proudly proclaim to those you rip into pieces...you are no lady....
Yeah, no kidding...
No kidding?
Far more than just that as the Holy Spirit transforms a man from dead in sin to alive unto God. The Holy Spirit raises believers in new life and the old man is passed away. There is true evidence of repentance as all things are now new and the old things are passed away. 2 Cor 5:17
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Far more than just that as the Holy Spirit transforms a man from dead in sin to alive unto God. The Holy Spirit raises believers in new life and the old man is passed away. There is true evidence of repentance as all things are now new and the old things are passed away. 2 Cor 5:17
For the cause of Christ
Roger
===========================================================
neither one of us appreciate this blatantly, un-kind Post to someone many of us here Love....
COL. 4:6.
Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer
every man.
MARK 4:24.
And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete,
it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
there are none of us that don't need 'refining' in our speech and actions, but let's pray to God
that all of us are working on them every single day...
neither one of us appreciate this blatantly, un-kind Post to someone many of us here Love....
COL. 4:6.
Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer
every man.
MARK 4:24.
And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete,
it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
there are none of us that don't need 'refining' in our speech and actions, but let's pray to God
that all of us are working on them every single day...
God justifies us. He gives us grace through Faith, and I might add he imparts the measure of faith. I am a Monergist in that regard.
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them." Eph. 2:8-10
But I am a synergist in sanctification. We cooperate with God in the works HE has prepared.
And one day, he glorifies! Looking forward to that day, and seeing Christ face to face!
As for "mental assent" I really don't know what that is. I don't believe in sinner's prayers, unless that is the moment God chooses to save someone. But, as I learned when I volunteered at a Billy Graham Crusade in 1984, in Vancouver BC, as part of the follow up program, literally not one person of thousands in the community where I lived was interested in following up with a Bible study or getting introduced to a local, Bible believing church. So we're any of them saved by mentally assenting and signing that card? Well, I leave that to God, but something was truly wrong with the method.
God changes us and the Holy Spirit is the one who leads us in sanctification. And that means we must repent, and follow Jesus all the days of our lives.
And no, I do not deify grace, only the Son! Hypergrace is a dangerous heresy. And that is one thing I can honestly say I learned through all the arguing in this forum. Hypergrace is unscriptural, and there are individuals here, deceivers and evil people, seeking to ensnare people in this trap.
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them." Eph. 2:8-10
But I am a synergist in sanctification. We cooperate with God in the works HE has prepared.
And one day, he glorifies! Looking forward to that day, and seeing Christ face to face!
As for "mental assent" I really don't know what that is. I don't believe in sinner's prayers, unless that is the moment God chooses to save someone. But, as I learned when I volunteered at a Billy Graham Crusade in 1984, in Vancouver BC, as part of the follow up program, literally not one person of thousands in the community where I lived was interested in following up with a Bible study or getting introduced to a local, Bible believing church. So we're any of them saved by mentally assenting and signing that card? Well, I leave that to God, but something was truly wrong with the method.
God changes us and the Holy Spirit is the one who leads us in sanctification. And that means we must repent, and follow Jesus all the days of our lives.
And no, I do not deify grace, only the Son! Hypergrace is a dangerous heresy. And that is one thing I can honestly say I learned through all the arguing in this forum. Hypergrace is unscriptural, and there are individuals here, deceivers and evil people, seeking to ensnare people in this trap.
I want to apologize to Stephen63 for getting angry, and not taking it to a pm first, rather than second. I still do not totally understand what he was talking about, but he was not referring to me.
We still disagree on one aspect of soteriology, but we are going to discuss it privately. I sometimes get my back up after coming off other threads where absolute lies and interpretations that are so far from the Biblical truth, they are beyond eisegesis and into fantasy, keep being posted in thread after thread, and nothing is done about it.
So I also apologize to anyone else I offended with this post. And I will keep defending the truth, after perhaps taking a short break!
One time, He addressed me to choose this day whom I will serve, the Lord Jesus Christ or something else in His name. I said "You of course.." but for some reason, that sense of urgency remained...then I prayed.. "Please help me to do this." And then the sense of urgency was gone as I had His peace once again.
Sure enough, about a week later, I was on vacation with my folks and confronted with my Aunt's church that had a "holy laughter" movement just that prior Sunday. He did not connect the dots for me to see until short while afterwards, but He kept me from chasing after those seducing spirits in serving them by preaching that movement in seeking to partake in the glory of that movement. Jesus is my Good Shepherd and I trust in Him to keep me from falling and to present me faultless to His glory.
So we may have "free will" to choose, but there is no power in that decision nor in that choice, as in there is no power in keeping that decision or choice to follow Him when obviously, I had to put all my trust & hopes in Him as my Good Shepherd to help me to follow Him.
It pays to lean on Him to teach me in His words as kept in the KJV to be grounded in the faith because it was afterwards that He provided scripture to see the role of the Holy Spirit for what He has been sent to do, and that is to keep the spotlight on the Son and not draw attention to Himself because that is what seducing spirits do in luring believers to stop seeking the face of Christ in worship to chasing after them for a sign.
Indeed, antichrist as applied in scripture means "instead of Christ" or more specifically, "instead of the Son". Jesus is the Christ and to deny the Son is the same as to deny the Father. Christ refers to deity and Jesus is the only way to come to God the Father by ( John 14:6 ) Not by chasing after the "Holy Spirit" for a sign, which it is really not the actual Holy Spirit, especially when He is in me as promised since I had first believed in Jesus Christ to be saved.
So even in that, I trust Him as my Good Shepherd to help me keep choosing to deny myself, pick up my cross daily, and follow Him because He is the power for living that reconciled relationship with God and that is through Jesus Christ.
Luke 9:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
2 Corinthians 5:[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[SUP] 18 [/SUP]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
Galatians 2:[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2 Corinthians 3:[SUP]4 [/SUP]And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:[SUP] 5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2 Corinthians 4:[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.[SUP]7 [/SUP]But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
[video=youtube;_rR_Rdb1CTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rR_Rdb1CTE[/video]
Sure enough, about a week later, I was on vacation with my folks and confronted with my Aunt's church that had a "holy laughter" movement just that prior Sunday. He did not connect the dots for me to see until short while afterwards, but He kept me from chasing after those seducing spirits in serving them by preaching that movement in seeking to partake in the glory of that movement. Jesus is my Good Shepherd and I trust in Him to keep me from falling and to present me faultless to His glory.
So we may have "free will" to choose, but there is no power in that decision nor in that choice, as in there is no power in keeping that decision or choice to follow Him when obviously, I had to put all my trust & hopes in Him as my Good Shepherd to help me to follow Him.
It pays to lean on Him to teach me in His words as kept in the KJV to be grounded in the faith because it was afterwards that He provided scripture to see the role of the Holy Spirit for what He has been sent to do, and that is to keep the spotlight on the Son and not draw attention to Himself because that is what seducing spirits do in luring believers to stop seeking the face of Christ in worship to chasing after them for a sign.
Indeed, antichrist as applied in scripture means "instead of Christ" or more specifically, "instead of the Son". Jesus is the Christ and to deny the Son is the same as to deny the Father. Christ refers to deity and Jesus is the only way to come to God the Father by ( John 14:6 ) Not by chasing after the "Holy Spirit" for a sign, which it is really not the actual Holy Spirit, especially when He is in me as promised since I had first believed in Jesus Christ to be saved.
So even in that, I trust Him as my Good Shepherd to help me keep choosing to deny myself, pick up my cross daily, and follow Him because He is the power for living that reconciled relationship with God and that is through Jesus Christ.
Luke 9:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
2 Corinthians 5:[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[SUP] 18 [/SUP]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
Galatians 2:[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2 Corinthians 3:[SUP]4 [/SUP]And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:[SUP] 5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2 Corinthians 4:[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.[SUP]7 [/SUP]But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
[video=youtube;_rR_Rdb1CTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rR_Rdb1CTE[/video]
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about once saved always saved or not etc.
I'm just genuinely curious why people would bring up this subject.
If a person is saved and then feel like they are still guilty or keep falling into
sinful ways. (Which by the way is all of us!) Wouldn't it be better to ask for
prayer, to encourage each other, to seek God with all your heart, to make sure
you are saved if you are not certain etc. Draw close to Him and He will draw close to
you.
And...if you are certain you are saved and know you are right before God,
then why would this subject matter bother you.
Honest I'm genuinely curious as to why this subject is brought up so much, it
seems a moot point. We can only speculate about ourselves and God is the only one
who knows the true heart of another person.
It seems to me there is a real need for us all to be certain and there is a real issue of
struggling with sin.
Maybe we can all disgard this OSAS subject matter and instead pray, edifying, encourage,
exhort each other to draw close to Jesus and walk with Him.
For the record I suppose my failings are pride, thinking I don't need anyone else's help and
that can extend to God as well, worry instead of casting cares on the Lord. Getting impatient,
moody at times (well I am a woman lol). Filling those gaps with things instead of God.
So maybe you could pray for me.
Anyone else feel free to add your failings (otherwise I will feel like I'm the only one.)
and maybe instead of pointless OSAS debates, we can actually help each other out.
So what do you think - any suggestions.
I'm just genuinely curious why people would bring up this subject.
If a person is saved and then feel like they are still guilty or keep falling into
sinful ways. (Which by the way is all of us!) Wouldn't it be better to ask for
prayer, to encourage each other, to seek God with all your heart, to make sure
you are saved if you are not certain etc. Draw close to Him and He will draw close to
you.
And...if you are certain you are saved and know you are right before God,
then why would this subject matter bother you.
Honest I'm genuinely curious as to why this subject is brought up so much, it
seems a moot point. We can only speculate about ourselves and God is the only one
who knows the true heart of another person.
It seems to me there is a real need for us all to be certain and there is a real issue of
struggling with sin.
Maybe we can all disgard this OSAS subject matter and instead pray, edifying, encourage,
exhort each other to draw close to Jesus and walk with Him.
For the record I suppose my failings are pride, thinking I don't need anyone else's help and
that can extend to God as well, worry instead of casting cares on the Lord. Getting impatient,
moody at times (well I am a woman lol). Filling those gaps with things instead of God.
So maybe you could pray for me.
Anyone else feel free to add your failings (otherwise I will feel like I'm the only one.
)and maybe instead of pointless OSAS debates, we can actually help each other out.
So what do you think - any suggestions.
Is it the subject that is offensive to you? Or is it the bad behavior that occurs during discussion of the subject?
I think we all can pray, edify, encourage, exhort each other to draw close to Jesus and walk with Him even while discussing the issue from our respective vantage points.
And, personally, I think the name-calling and character assassination is what should disappear from these threads rather than discussion of the subject at hand. I believe the name-calling / character assassination comes from someone not sticking to the topic at hand because they cannot refute the central point. So rather than graciously leave the conversation, or respond to the issue, they attack with venomous lips.
James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Sometimes when I read through threads, I visualize the body of Christ attacking itself and how does that affect the Head. Our physical body does not attack itself (unless there is a defect, or a foreign matter has attached itself to it). In fact, we read verses which tell us there should be no schism in the body, we should care for each other, we should not be contentious toward each other. So even if we disagree with a brother or sister, we should treat him or her with the same care and concern God cared for us at the time we were born again (when we were reveling in sin and actively striving against Him). When I was born again, I was told (and shown from Scripture) how much God loved me, how much He wanted me to turn from sin, how He would take me, wash me clean, and hold me close to Him.