indifference

[atwhatcost]

I personally believe you are correct. I think indifference is the opposite of love. Most pit hate as opposite love but I think it is indifference.

The word indifference doesn't appear in the Bible but we can find a few examples of what happens when we become indifferent. Rev 3:16 is a good example as how God views indifference. It almost seems that indifference towards God is worse than hatred of God. Hatred of God usually stems from a past experience. Indifference to God stems from a lack of cencern.

The polar opposite of Rev 3:16 is John 3:16. In my studies of this I found this quite interesting.

I still think lukewarm is halfhearted, yet still an attempt. Indifference is worse than that.

Interesting thing I learned about the lukewarm church John was talking to there. They lived near two different sources of water -- a hot spring and... well I forget what the other was, but it was cold. Cold refreshes and rejuvenates. Hot heals the aches and pains of life. Put them together and it's worthless. (Also different than indifferent.) God wasn't telling them to shape up or ship out. He was telling them to either refresh themselves in him or heal in him, but don't sit in uselessness.

They listened, so there was no spitting involved. lol

 

[elf3]

When i think about "lukewarm" it is neither hot nor cold. A "lukewarm" heart is neither for God nor against God. So in my understanding "lukewarm" is an "indifference". A "staddling" of the fence would, in my understanding, be different. A straddling of the fence is more of saying one thing then acting another. Playing both sides to your own benefit.

 

[EdisonTrent]

In my view, God made each of us to be different than the next person, but of coarse Edison ...
but we can learn from each other about our selves and others and Gods will... when we lack our own insight or of other people's insight that is when indifference comes into play which returns that insight about our selves and others and Gods will... Surely without it I probably would never learn a thing about right and wrong. But of coarse some may walk away empty handed or some may walk away shaking hands. Indifference creates food for thought,choice, free will.

 

[atwhatcost]

^Indifference is lack of care. I've long thought indifference is the opposite of love and hate.^-'atwhatcost' .
--- Exactly! And that's why it's so destructive. And though most might not see it this way, it's a form of bullying, and is often used to make someone hurt or feel 'less than'. What I 'hate' about myself sometimes, is even knowing how much this hurts, as I've been victim many, Many times, I still find myself having the same attitude at times, and I don't know why, except to say that maybe being treated as if you don't matter or are an outcast, even from the body of Christ, can lead to a 'who cares anyway' attitude. I hate to admit it, but when I see in the news that someone 'went postal' (sorry, Dan), whether on classmates, family, or strangers, I can sometimes understand. I would Never agree with these crimes or sins, and I thank God for His Grace to keep me from committing those acts, but I often wonder what drives a person to such hateful vengeance, and I bet it's often rooted in indifference to their feelings which manifested in bullying or violence or just plain ignorance or ostracising. The victim then may become the perpetrator, and seek satisfaction thru vengeance. It's wrong, but I think I get it , a little , maybe? It's one reason it's SO important to KNOW God loves us and will NEVER leave us or forsake us, no matter what others may think, or say, or do. And we need to somehow communicate this to others (which may lead to yet another 'assurance of salvation' debate thread). But this can be difficult to convey when the world, the enemy, our own flesh, and sometimes even the 'church' tells us otherwise. FORGIVENESS! A SAVIOUR! It's what we all need. It's what we all have, in Jesus, and none other. Let whosoever will come and partake of the water of life freely (sorry for the rough interpretation of Rev.22:17) Father in Heaven, please forgive me when I have times of indifference. When I thirst, may it be for, and satisfied by, Your love, grace, mercy, truth , peace and joy in Jesus Christ, the True and Living God our Saviour. Amen.

LOL on the "Sorry Dan" part. Actually, it's called "going postal" for a good reason, and I bet Dan gets the connection. In an old South Philly Church-planting church we used to go to, one of our Leading Elders was a postman for his day job, as was his brother who also was with us in that church. (Teaching Elder left, so we had to hire Teaching Elders each week for service. They all came from our presbytery, and we came to know the four of them well. I'm not sure "Leading Elder" is the right word for that position, but they did much of the job that people think of when they think the word "pastor" without placing him behind the podium preaching -- the day to day job of pastor vs. Sunday pastor.) He taught us the post office only keeps those who work at 100% capacity 308 days a year. Preferably 315 days a week, since they only get five sick days a year, and will be reported if they go above two sick days. They'll be fired, if they take a sixth day.

It's so tough that man's wife gave birth, but he couldn't stay home to help her the first couple of days after giving birth. And, worse yet, she developed a life threatening goiter (it was cutting off her wind pipe and was caused by the pregnancy, so it was a tough decision whether they should operate -- which causes stress on the baby -- or wait for the baby to be born and hope it didn't cut off her ability to breathe through the rest of her pregnancy.) Yet, he had to work throughout that, and, after the pregnancy when she had her thyroid removed, he was written up for wasting a sick day. So, going postal is more accurate than you would think. Seriously a stressful job. (That and he was in charge of every single envelope or packages that traveled into or out of 19103 and 19106, which only you would know as all of Center City Philadelphia. He worked in 30th Street, so the busiest post office in Philly.)

But yeah, sometimes bullying is indifference. The bully doesn't care one way or the other about the target. But also sometimes bullying is target specific. One of my brothers is a bully. He targets female family members and targeted his ex-wife. It wasn't indifference. It's establishing himself in the pecking order, and everyone else learns to duck or incur his wrath too. The only ones who don't get that choice are the female family members. And he did that on purpose -- he lost to a brother, so stopped fighting him. The only thing that saved me was getting out and then marrying a big man. (Not saying God wasn't involved. I should have died a couple of times at my brother's hand.) The only thing that saved my sister was he had his own life by the time she came along. And the only thing that saved his ex was she was smart enough to give him everything in the divorce, (which was his goal.)

So there are more than one kind of bullies, but our answer really does come back to trusting Christ to change us to his good and to love through him in us. Otherwise, we are likely to go off the deep end in a variety of ways.

 

[elf3]

In Rev 3:16 John even explains what "lukewarm" is. He defines it as neither hot nor cold which is an indifference.

 

[sydlit]

In my view, God made each of us to be different than the next person, but of coarse Edison ...
but we can learn from each other about our selves and others and Gods will... when we lack our own insight or of other people's insight that is when indifference comes into play which returns that insight about our selves and others and Gods will... Surely without it I probably would never learn a thing about right and wrong. But of coarse some may walk away empty handed or some may walk away shaking hands. Indifference creates food for thought,choice, free will.

I gave this post a 'like' but I'm not sure why, I'm still trying to fully grasp it. One thing I know, I'm not indifferent to it.
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(Got to buy a new sig, dubble-mindedness can cause imbalance, make you fall, get hurt, not really funny. Sorry.)

 

[Willie-T]

Another view of "lukewarm."

For years, I have heard preachers preaching that in Revelation 3:15–16, Jesus was referring to people who are not “red-hot for Jesus” Have you heard that expression before? And what does being “red-hot for Jesus” mean? Traditionally, we have been taught that it means that you are reading 10 chapters of the Bible a day, witnessing to your colleagues and attending every prayer meeting you can find! To be cold means just the opposite — you stop doing these things entirely.

The verse has always been preached as though it were about our actions and behavior. But Jesus said that He would rather we be cold or hot, and not lukewarm. This wouldn’t make sense if He was referring to actions and behavior, because wouldn’t being lukewarm for Jesus still be better than being completely cold? So why would He want the church of Laodicea to be cold (if they weren’t hot)? Come on! I always tell my church this: When you come on Sunday, don’t forget to bring your brains along! Don’t just take in everything you hear. You have to test the message and make sure that it is consistent with the gospel of Jesus. The gospel simply means “good news” So if what you are hearing is not good news, but instead deposits fear, doubt, judgment and condemnation in your heart, throw it out, my friend, because it’s not the gospel of Jesus.

Be Hot Or Cold, Not Lukewarm.
Now, would you like to know what I think Revelation 3:15–16 really means? The two verses would only make sense when they are interpreted in the light of the mixture of the covenants of law and grace in the church of Laodicea. The Lord was saying that He would the church be cold — entirely under law, or hot — entirely under grace. You see, if you were at least completely under law, it would lead you to despair and into the saving arms of Jesus. The law would unveil to you your sinfulness and inability to keep the full measure of it, and this would cause you to see your need for His grace.

But when you have mixture, where you believe in grace, but still hold on to the law, you neutralize the convicting power of the law to bring you to the end of yourself so that you will cry out for the grace of the Savior. That is why you cannot be cold and hot at the same time, or be for both law and grace at the same time. The moment you attempt to balance grace with the law, you neutralize both and each covenant is robbed of its full effect in your life. You become lukewarm because of the mixture, and God hates mixture because it robs you of the power to reign in life through the abundance of His grace! You cannot put new wine into old wineskins. You will lose both!

Trying to balance grace with the law robs you of the power to reign in life through the abundance of His grace.

This is exactly what Paul was saying to the Galatians when he explained to them the purpose of the law:
Galatians 3:24–25:

24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[dcontroversal]

When i think about "lukewarm" it is neither hot nor cold. A "lukewarm" heart is neither for God nor against God. So in my understanding "lukewarm" is an "indifference". A "staddling" of the fence would, in my understanding, be different. A straddling of the fence is more of saying one thing then acting another. Playing both sides to your own benefit.

 

[EdisonTrent]

[/.
God = agreement..... World = indifference

 

[MadParrotWoman]

Indifference...

There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; Romans 3:11

'Now hear this, O foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see; Who have ears but do not hear. Jeremiah 5:21

And those who have turned back from following the LORD, and those who have not sought the LORD or inquired of Him. Zephaniah
(interesting words there - "inquired of Him")

For the heart of this people has become dull, with their ears they will scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes, otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I would heal them. Matthew 13:15[FONT=kepler-std !important]
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Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. Matthew 24:12

 

[BarlyGurl]

It does not say He will keep you in His mouth if you are entirely against Him, it says you are either hot and are totally with the Lord our God, you are cold and totally against Him which means you were never His to begin with, or you are lukewarm and claim to love Him and may even follow for a little but then do to disobedience and continuing to live your own way He will spit you out for trying to serve Him and flesh both.

I really like how the Lord shows us the truth of.... Mat. 4:4 Man shall live by every word which precedes from the mouth of GOD. In that he SAYS so... and then shows us with the imagery of "testing" by his mouth.... He will taste us... and judge/measure our hearts, thoughts and intentions... by the word/MOUTH.

 

[KennethC]

The bolded above in Titus is wrong and that is not what it states...it states and uses the word reprobate...which is VOID....not disqualified and what I said stands....the hot and or cold carries the idea of refreshing unto the Lord as NO WHERE does he desire someone to be evil and or void of good works......your view is in error!

There is not much different in being VOID and being disqualified, as both mean they will not mean anything or taken into account.

Being hot or cold has nothing to do with refreshing, for it clearly says "I know your works."

He is saying by their works they should either be hot or cold, show by them they are fully for Him or they are completely against Him. But there will be those who say they are for Him but by their actions will show differently, being lukewarm and will be spit out.

Example would be: Westboro Baptist church who claims to be for Christ, but constantly spew hate speech at others.

These people are lukewarm believers that will be spit out, because even though they profess Jesus as their Lord their hate doctrine will cost them eternal life if they do not repent of those ways.

 

[KennethC]

When i think about "lukewarm" it is neither hot nor cold. A "lukewarm" heart is neither for God nor against God. So in my understanding "lukewarm" is an "indifference". A "staddling" of the fence would, in my understanding, be different. A straddling of the fence is more of saying one thing then acting another. Playing both sides to your own benefit.

Yes and the word of God says that a believer can not be this way, as they will be a double minded man unstable in all of his ways. Also states we can not serve both Him and the world both, so if a person is lukewarm they will be spit out and appointed with the unbelievers.

 

[dcontroversal]

There is not much different in being VOID and being disqualified, as both mean they will not mean anything or taken into account.

Being hot or cold has nothing to do with refreshing, for it clearly says "I know your works."

He is saying by their works they should either be hot or cold, show by them they are fully for Him or they are completely against Him. But there will be those who say they are for Him but by their actions will show differently, being lukewarm and will be spit out.

Example would be: Westboro Baptist church who claims to be for Christ, but constantly spew hate speech at others.

These people are lukewarm believers that will be spit out, because even though they profess Jesus as their Lord their hate doctrine will cost them eternal life if they do not repent of those ways.

I see you still skipped Willie's statement above...so God will keep one who is cold, wrong and in sin in his mouth...that defeats your loss of salvation dogma based upon sin and being worldly and indifferent....He only states that he will spew out those who are lukewarm....doesn't say that about the ones who are COLD...so jive your theology with that.....!

and there is a difference in being void and or disqualified.....look the words up in a dictionary....

void<---has none and key is unto EVERY good work
disqualified<---cannot nor will be able to bear because of being disqualified!

 

[KennethC]

I really like how the Lord shows us the truth of.... Mat. 4:4 Man shall live by every word which precedes from the mouth of GOD. In that he SAYS so... and then shows us with the imagery of "testing" by his mouth.... He will taste us... and judge/measure our hearts, thoughts and intentions... by the word/MOUTH.

Yes for if you love and believe in Him it clearly says you will also follow and keep His teachings and commandments !!!

 

[KennethC]

I see you still skipped Willie's statement above...so God will keep one who is cold, wrong and in sin in his mouth...that defeats your loss of salvation dogma based upon sin and being worldly and indifferent....He only states that he will spew out those who are lukewarm....doesn't say that about the ones who are COLD...so jive your theology with that.....!

I did not skip nothing and I did answer it as it does not say anywhere that the Lord will keep the cold in His mouth for the cold would not be in the Lord to begin with.

I do not get where you or Willie think a person who is cold is in His mouth (in Him by faith) to begin with, as that passage does not say they are. The hot are in Christ and the cold are not, so the judgment of them is easy as their place is clearly set before hand.

But those who are lukewarm are still straddling the fence and better chose before they die to repent and serve the Lord only, or continue to be lukewarm and they will be cast aside and placed with the unbelievers. You can not serve two masters and have eternal life both.

 

[BarlyGurl]

When i think about "lukewarm" it is neither hot nor cold. A "lukewarm" heart is neither for God nor against God. So in my understanding "lukewarm" is an "indifference". A "staddling" of the fence would, in my understanding, be different. A straddling of the fence is more of saying one thing then acting another. Playing both sides to your own benefit.

I notice the "love" "hate" comparison and think of Rom 12:9. If we LOVE God...then we ultimately should HATE evil... that is what God says is evil...not our personal perspectives about what WE think is evil. So if God is FIRST, then hate is positionaly inclusive to love of God.

 

[elf3]

[/.
God = agreement..... World = indifference

Well I have to respectfully disagree with this. If we are of the world we are not in God. If we are of God we are in God. Being on the fence would be an indifference to either the world or God. Having no concern of what the world says and having no concern of what God says.

 

[dcontroversal]

I did not skip nothing and I did answer it as it does not say anywhere that the Lord will keep the cold in His mouth for the cold would not be in the Lord to begin with.

I do not get where you or Willie think a person who is cold is in His mouth (in Him by faith) to begin with, as that passage does not say they are. The hot are in Christ and the cold are not, so the judgment of them is easy as their place is clearly set before hand.

But those who are lukewarm are still straddling the fence and better chose before they die to repent and serve the Lord only, or continue to be lukewarm and they will be cast aside and placed with the unbelievers. You can not serve two masters and have eternal life both.

I suggest you go back and read it....the context is clear and I can just as easily say that it does not say that the COLD are not in his mouth......face it...you read in all the time stuff that is not there...continually I might add!

 

[dcontroversal]

Well I have to respectfully disagree with this. If we are of the world we are not in God. If we are of God we are in God. Being on the fence would be an indifference to either the world or God. Having no concern of what the world says and having no concern of what God says.

Exactly....Like the believer who will not agree with gays and will not condemn gays.........on the fence and indifferent to both views........!