Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)
- Thread starter Rock022
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yea he's the Son of God. And Mary is his mum. Mary is the Mother of the Lord Jesus.
But I don't believe Jesus and God are the same entity.
The verse 'I and God are one', in it's context, for me says that their will/attitude/desire/'thought process' are one.
But God cannot be Jesus because Jesus felt temptation.
So the verses containing 'Mother of my Lord' can be taken in this way. That Mary is the Mother of Jesus. But obviously not the mother of God, since God came before Mary and has no parents. Alpha and Omega. Beginning and end.
That's just my take.
But I don't believe Jesus and God are the same entity.
The verse 'I and God are one', in it's context, for me says that their will/attitude/desire/'thought process' are one.
But God cannot be Jesus because Jesus felt temptation.
So the verses containing 'Mother of my Lord' can be taken in this way. That Mary is the Mother of Jesus. But obviously not the mother of God, since God came before Mary and has no parents. Alpha and Omega. Beginning and end.
That's just my take.
For those who say Jesus can be Lord and not God I do not understand the reasoning. Jesus was the Word and the Word was made flesh. We believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit, there is no human added to the Trinity.
I guess my question would be, how can Jesus be human and God separated?
Part of my reasoning is that Jesus came to suffer as we suffer and show us true love. God love is so great he became one of us. Jesus lived a perfect life.
I guess my question would be, how can Jesus be human and God separated?
Part of my reasoning is that Jesus came to suffer as we suffer and show us true love. God love is so great he became one of us. Jesus lived a perfect life.
Arianism
Arianism was a 4th century heresy named after Arius (c.250-336), a presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, who taught that the Son of God was not co- eternal and consubstantial with His Father, but rather a created being with a definite origin in time. In Arius's words, "there was [a time] when he (the Son) was not." This led to the calling of the First Ecumenical Council , which condemned it and its author and established the Orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity as taught by Arius's chief opponent, St. Athanasius the Great . Though it managed to hang on among some of the Goths and other Germanic tribes in the West, Arianism had vanished by the seventh century. Arianism should be clearly distinguished from "Aryanism", which formed the core of Nazi racial ideology during the twentieth century, and which had nothing whatsoever to do with Arius or his teachings.
The heresy
As stated above, Arius denied the full deity of the preexistent Son of God, the Logos who became incarnate as our Lord Jesus Christ ("the Word (Jesus Christ) became flesh" John 1:14 - NKJV). He held that the Son, while divine and like unto God, was created by God as the agent through whom He created the universe; thus that there was a time when the Son "was not". In explaining his actions against Arius, Alexander of Alexandria wrote a letter to Alexander of Constantinople and Eusebius of Nicomedia (where the emperor was then residing), detailing the errors into which he believed Arius had fallen. According to Alexander, Arius taught: That God was not always the Father, but that there was a period when he was not the Father; that the Word of God was not from eternity, but was made out of nothing; for that the ever- existing God (‘the I AM’—the eternal One) made him who did not previously exist, out of nothing; wherefore there was a time when he did not exist, inasmuch as the Son is a creature and a work. That he is neither like the Father as it regards his essence, nor is by nature either the Father’s true Word, or true Wisdom, but indeed one of his works and creatures, being erroneously called Word and Wisdom, since he was himself made of God’s own Word and the Wisdom which is in God, whereby God both made all things and him also. Wherefore he is as to his nature mutable and susceptible of change, as all other rational creatures are: hence the Word is alien to and other than the essence of God; and the Father is inexplicable by the Son, and invisible to him, for neither does the Word perfectly and accurately know the Father, neither can he distinctly see him. The Son knows not the nature of his own essence: for he was made on our account, in order that God might create us by him, as by an instrument; nor would he ever have existed, unless God had wished to create us.
The Church's response
While Arius developed a following among some Syrian prelates, an Alexandrian synod of some 100 bishops summoned by Bishop Alexander condemned him in 321. He was excommunicated , and fled to Palestine. There he entered into a friendship with Eusebius of Nicomedia. Arius, a proficient writer, produced many compositions in both prose and verse defending his belief, including a poem that he called the Thalia. Most of these writings were destroyed as being heretical, though portions of the Thalia and a few other Arian texts survive. The Roman emperor Constantine the Great , desiring the restoration of peace and unity to the Church, publicly called upon Arius and Alexander to settle their dispute; however, the issue was such that no genuine compromise was possible. As the debate continued to rage between supporters of each man, the emperor finally decided to call a great council of all Church bishops to resolve the dilemma. This First Ecumenical Council , held at Nicea in 325, was led in its teachings by Athanasius, at this time a mere deacon in the Alexandrian church. The council condemned Arianism and maintained that Christ was "God from God, Light from Light, Very God from Very God, begotten not made (not created), and One in essence with the Father." (homoousios/ομοούσιος "of the same essence" rather than Arius' heretical homoiousios/ομοιούσιος "of a similar essence"). It then incorporated these words into the first version of the Nicene Creed.
Arianism was a 4th century heresy named after Arius (c.250-336), a presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, who taught that the Son of God was not co- eternal and consubstantial with His Father, but rather a created being with a definite origin in time. In Arius's words, "there was [a time] when he (the Son) was not." This led to the calling of the First Ecumenical Council , which condemned it and its author and established the Orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity as taught by Arius's chief opponent, St. Athanasius the Great . Though it managed to hang on among some of the Goths and other Germanic tribes in the West, Arianism had vanished by the seventh century. Arianism should be clearly distinguished from "Aryanism", which formed the core of Nazi racial ideology during the twentieth century, and which had nothing whatsoever to do with Arius or his teachings.
The heresy
As stated above, Arius denied the full deity of the preexistent Son of God, the Logos who became incarnate as our Lord Jesus Christ ("the Word (Jesus Christ) became flesh" John 1:14 - NKJV). He held that the Son, while divine and like unto God, was created by God as the agent through whom He created the universe; thus that there was a time when the Son "was not". In explaining his actions against Arius, Alexander of Alexandria wrote a letter to Alexander of Constantinople and Eusebius of Nicomedia (where the emperor was then residing), detailing the errors into which he believed Arius had fallen. According to Alexander, Arius taught: That God was not always the Father, but that there was a period when he was not the Father; that the Word of God was not from eternity, but was made out of nothing; for that the ever- existing God (‘the I AM’—the eternal One) made him who did not previously exist, out of nothing; wherefore there was a time when he did not exist, inasmuch as the Son is a creature and a work. That he is neither like the Father as it regards his essence, nor is by nature either the Father’s true Word, or true Wisdom, but indeed one of his works and creatures, being erroneously called Word and Wisdom, since he was himself made of God’s own Word and the Wisdom which is in God, whereby God both made all things and him also. Wherefore he is as to his nature mutable and susceptible of change, as all other rational creatures are: hence the Word is alien to and other than the essence of God; and the Father is inexplicable by the Son, and invisible to him, for neither does the Word perfectly and accurately know the Father, neither can he distinctly see him. The Son knows not the nature of his own essence: for he was made on our account, in order that God might create us by him, as by an instrument; nor would he ever have existed, unless God had wished to create us.
The Church's response
While Arius developed a following among some Syrian prelates, an Alexandrian synod of some 100 bishops summoned by Bishop Alexander condemned him in 321. He was excommunicated , and fled to Palestine. There he entered into a friendship with Eusebius of Nicomedia. Arius, a proficient writer, produced many compositions in both prose and verse defending his belief, including a poem that he called the Thalia. Most of these writings were destroyed as being heretical, though portions of the Thalia and a few other Arian texts survive. The Roman emperor Constantine the Great , desiring the restoration of peace and unity to the Church, publicly called upon Arius and Alexander to settle their dispute; however, the issue was such that no genuine compromise was possible. As the debate continued to rage between supporters of each man, the emperor finally decided to call a great council of all Church bishops to resolve the dilemma. This First Ecumenical Council , held at Nicea in 325, was led in its teachings by Athanasius, at this time a mere deacon in the Alexandrian church. The council condemned Arianism and maintained that Christ was "God from God, Light from Light, Very God from Very God, begotten not made (not created), and One in essence with the Father." (homoousios/ομοούσιος "of the same essence" rather than Arius' heretical homoiousios/ομοιούσιος "of a similar essence"). It then incorporated these words into the first version of the Nicene Creed.
Jesus, Yeshua, Who is Yahweh in the flesh did indeed feel temptation as you put it, but He did not yield to it. He was sinless. He felt temptation, as you put it, in order to show us the way. He defeated the enemy (Satan) with the Word, and He did this and everything else just for those who accept the free gift of Salvation. If you have not learned this, learn it now, for salvation rests on faith in this. May God bless you and direct you, amen.
T
Read what it says, "My mother's children." David had a "human" father. Everyone has a "human"
father. David would have used "father's children" if he had been speaking of himself. He would
have used "father's children" in all cases if he had been speaking of anyone other than the Messiah,
which didn't have a human father. The very fact that he used "mother's children" makes it stand out
and leaves no other option but being prophecy of the Messiah. They all refered back to the "father"
in the Bible except for this verse. There are many verses in Ps 69 that concern the Messiah.
father. David would have used "father's children" if he had been speaking of himself. He would
have used "father's children" in all cases if he had been speaking of anyone other than the Messiah,
which didn't have a human father. The very fact that he used "mother's children" makes it stand out
and leaves no other option but being prophecy of the Messiah. They all refered back to the "father"
in the Bible except for this verse. There are many verses in Ps 69 that concern the Messiah.
K
Some of us went round and round with this a few weeks back in a thread. A lot depends on how you think about God. Hebrew has no word for God, only for God the Father, God the Creator, and the gods (of pagans). Jesus is different from all of those, as you point out. That's why in the Bible, He is called the "Son of God". Greek has only one word, very like our word "God", and NT Greek has no capitalization. They use that word for everything from God the Father, to Zeus and Minerva. So, once the Jewish Christians left the historical record, the Greek and Latin speaking Christians said correctly in their language and thought patterns "Jesus is God". The longer you know Jesus and the Father personally, the more conscious you become of the differences.
Personally, I would never deny either expression, since it depends on the point of view.
Personally, I would never deny either expression, since it depends on the point of view.
K
David had a mother too. Why could He simply not have used either?
It gets complicated, but David's sisters were the daughters of Nahash (I Sam 17:25), who also has a child Hahun (I Sam 10:2), not one of David's brothers (I Chr. 2:12-16). However you interpret it, there had to be some step brothers in there someplace, and David may have felt closer to the mother's side of the family. After all, he was the one they made watch the sheep.
So this verse won't do it. Again vs. 5 cannot apply to Jesus. He was never either foolish or sinful.
It gets complicated, but David's sisters were the daughters of Nahash (I Sam 17:25), who also has a child Hahun (I Sam 10:2), not one of David's brothers (I Chr. 2:12-16). However you interpret it, there had to be some step brothers in there someplace, and David may have felt closer to the mother's side of the family. After all, he was the one they made watch the sheep.
So this verse won't do it. Again vs. 5 cannot apply to Jesus. He was never either foolish or sinful.
S
Mary is Dead and gone forever more !She was made a new creature !She in new Jerusalem with a new body and name ! our names die with our flesh body !
2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Rev_2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Those gone on already have there new bodies! they wear robes , speak , raise there arms and talk to the LORD and each other ! the 24 elders are on thrones ! !2 of which are the 12 disciples ! Not sure who the other 12 is ?
2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Rev_2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Those gone on already have there new bodies! they wear robes , speak , raise there arms and talk to the LORD and each other ! the 24 elders are on thrones ! !2 of which are the 12 disciples ! Not sure who the other 12 is ?
S
Mary was indded the mother of JESUS !Jesus was a real person with a real mind !He spoke from HIS real mind ! in HIS flesh ,He was the Son of GOD !
But in His Spir9it He was Always a part of GOD ! HE came as a baby to be the perfect example to all mankind ! His flesh really died and laid in the Tomb as His Spirit went to hell and preached His gospel ! freeing many captives ! Now we see He in His body He had before creating this planet in Revelations and Daniel
He appeared in the body He had on earth ,so the disciples would know Him !
Dan_7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
But in His Spir9it He was Always a part of GOD ! HE came as a baby to be the perfect example to all mankind ! His flesh really died and laid in the Tomb as His Spirit went to hell and preached His gospel ! freeing many captives ! Now we see He in His body He had before creating this planet in Revelations and Daniel
He appeared in the body He had on earth ,so the disciples would know Him !
Dan_7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
K
Just to remind everyone that we have a Scripture where Jesus address the idea of calling Mary blessed, and puts everything into the proper perspective. Luke 11:27-28. During His ministry, a certain woman said "Blessed are the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you." Jesus answered, "yes, but rather (or moreso) blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it." He did not criticize the woman; she was just fulfilling a prophecy "all generations will call you blessed" (Luke 1:28 and 42), but He showed her a higher road.