OSAS supporters, explain these, if you will please.

[Atwood]

The text does not say "they came short of regeneration". Now why would Eternal Securists want to ADD that to God's word?

Hebrews 6:9 says the description falls short of salvation. Salvation starts with regeneration. This is not an addition to the text. Those who quote Heb and stop before 6:9 are subtracting from the text.

The text does say they were enlightened (past tense), tasted (past tense) of the heavenly gift, made (past tense) [μετόχους] . . . of the Holy Ghost, tasted (past tense) the word of God and the powers of the world to come.

Also it says that those characteristics are less that a state of salvation. They could all apply to Judas (see Mat 10). "Partakers" is an unnecessary translation of μετόχους.

The Hebrews passage does not say "save, Savior, salvation, or "eternal life"

 

[SeaBass]

Again wrong and misunderstood by your COC heresy....

Apostle=ONE SENT
DISCIPLE=LEARNER of ONES doctrine

The majority of the WORLD knows about JESUS and HIS doctrine, but that does not make them a saved child of God.....

Jesus also said clearly that JUDAS was not OF them and WAS a DEVIL form the beginning....

DUDE you can forget it...your COC heresy will never FLY with me in light of the WORD of GOD!

Go peddle it to someone else and when you finally open your eyes to the truth of Jesus and quit propagating Campbellite heresy then come and enjoy the truth...until then you are a false teacher that trusts into a heretical man made doctrine!

You must be blind to the bolded above! OPEN your eyes dude before you cook!

Lk 6:13 and Jn 17:11,12 are not wrong so that can only mean YOU must be the one that is wrong.

Judas was called a disciple of Christ and called an apostle. Many may have information, knowledge about Christ but they are not called a DISCIPLE or an APOSTLE as was Judas. No unsaved person, even if they have information/knowledge about Christ, can be either a disciple of Christ or an apostle if they do not hear and follow Christ, Jn 10:27, and that what Judas was doing as a disciple.

Nor is an ALWAYS unsaved person one who had been given and kept (past tense) by Christ, Jn 17:11,12 as Judas had been given and kept by Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

Lk 6:13 and Jn 17:11,12 are not wrong so that can only mean YOU must be the one that is wrong.

Judas was called a disciple of Christ and called an apostle. Many may have information, knowledge about Christ but they are not called a DISCIPLE or an APOSTLE as was Judas. No unsaved person, even if they have information/knowledge about Christ, can be either a disciple of Christ or an apostle if they do not hear and follow Christ, Jn 10:27, and that what Judas was doing as a disciple.

Nor is an ALWAYS unsaved person one who had been given and kept (past tense) by Christ, Jn 17:11,12 as Judas had been given and kept by Christ.

Keep rejecting truth and reading in things that are not there and you know your destiny dude.........in the very text you quoted above in red you totally reject the truth of Judas so as to support your Campbellite doctrine....see if you acknowledge the truth it will begin to shoot holes in your heresy.....so be defiant against the truth and cook! but the son of perdition;....................

Originally Posted by SeaBass

Lk 6:13 "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples (includes Judas): and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles (includes Judas);."

Judas here is called both a "disciple" of Christ and "apostle" which would not be possible if he were never saved.

Jn 17:11,12 "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,.................... but the son of perdition;.................... that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Judas was one both given to Christ and kept by Christ, again not possible if he were always lost.

If someone gave me 12 different colored pencils to keep and when that person returned to get his pencils and I said "none of them are lost but the red one", I could not say that unless I was first given the red pencil to keep.

 

[Scuba]

2 John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,

You're saying that Paul revokes the words and promise of Jesus. He doesn't. But Jesus did warn of Paul and his mission.
Matthew 24:25-28 See, I have told you ahead of time.“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather

(Acts 9:1-19Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest [SUP]2 [/SUP]and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. [SUP]3 [/SUP]As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. [SUP]4 [/SUP]He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” [SUP]5 [/SUP]“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. [SUP]6 [/SUP]“Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”......)

It's all in how you defines meanings. It's important to use the Bible to define meanings, not denominations. Salvation is not a ticket that you get punched.

 

[Atwood]

Regeneration is the new birth and the new birth is when someone is born of God's Spirit. In other words, [sic] they become partakers [sic] of the Holy Spirit.

μετόχους, the word sometimes translated "partners" does not mean "regenerated." It could include Judas (see Mat 10). HOw could Caiaphas who was not saved made a prophecy except by the Holy Spirit? How could Judas do miracles, but by the Holy Spirit (Mat 10). How can it be that some men did great things in Christ's name, but He never knew them?

Since regeneration is the start of salvation. Thus regeneration implies salvation. Yet 6:9 says that this "μετόχους of the Holy Spirit" is less than salvation.

Also being born again is to an inheritance
incorruptible,
undefiled,
fades not away,
and kept by the power of God.
(1 Pet 1).

The Hebrews passage does not say Savior, save, saved, or eternal life; except by way of negation in 6:9.

 

[SeaBass]

Eternal security is not even in the context?
You really don't comprehend scripture at all. That's the scary part. People like that who argue Jesus', God incarnate, lied and had no comprehension of "context" , when he promised "eternal life". Those people who argue Jesus is a liar, as in your case here, redefine "eternal" on his behalf.
Thank Christ the scriptures warn us of false teachers that promote the lie you're promoting here. This isn't a game. This is souls and God's word. Which, since you aren't aware, supersedes your agenda in leading people falsely.

Eternal life, eternal salvation, has never been sponsored in scripture as a license to sin. A Christian knows this. A Christian is aware of those scriptures that tell those who are born again to live and act in a manner that pleases God. This of course is a command that interjects itself after we accept Jesus.
Perhaps if you ventured to a site like Biblegateway.com and committed yourself to their Bible study you would be better off.

Because it is reprehensible that anyone would venture into a Christians community and attempt to argue with them that the eternal life Jesus promised, the eternal security in his hand as that grace of salvation, is transient. It's a lie vomited right out of the pit. And I forgive those who speak from there to any Christian here. I just hope God does too.

Too many pull verse 28 OUT OF CONTEXT and ADD eternal security to it while avoiding verse 27.

God does not hold certain individuals in His and by chance or unconditionally. Those that God holds in His hand are there in His hand for they are Christ's sheep that CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ. Those those that CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ make up "MY sheep". As long as those sheep remain faithful in thier hearing and following God is faithful to them by not allowing them to be snatched out of His hand.

Eternal security basically says one does not even have to conditionally hear and follow Christ to be a sheep of Christ nor does one have to hear and follow Christ to be in God's hand. Both of which are biblically impossible.


The lie would be the idea that anyone can be a sheep of Christ WITHOUT continually hearing and following Christ.

The lie would be that God UNCONDITIONALLY holds anyone in His hand even if that person does NOT continually hear and follow Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

Too many pull verse 28 OUT OF CONTEXT and ADD eternal security to it while avoiding verse 27.

God does not hold certain individuals in His and by chance or unconditionally. Those that God holds in His hand are there in His hand for they are Christ's sheep that CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ. Those those that CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ make up "MY sheep". As long as those sheep remain faithful in thier hearing and following God is faithful to them by not allowing them to be snatched out of His hand.

Eternal security basically says one does not even have to conditionally hear and follow Christ to be a sheep of Christ nor does one have to hear and follow Christ to be in God's hand. Both of which are biblically impossible.


The lie would be the idea that anyone can be a sheep of Christ WITHOUT continually hearing and following Christ.

The lie would be that God UNCONDITIONALLY holds anyone in His hand even if that person does NOT continually hear and follow Christ.

AGAIN more CAMPBELLITE confusion over the scriptures.....you never cease to amaze HAH!

 

[Atwood]

Lk 6:13 "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples (includes Judas): and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles (includes Judas);."

Judas here is called both a "disciple" of Christ and "apostle" which would not be possible if he were never saved.

What is your proof of that?


Jn 17:11,12 "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Judas was one both given to Christ and kept by Christ, again not possible if he were always lost.

How do you know that "but the son of perdition" is not an exception clause to all of the above? Note that prayer that Christ made:

"Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."

A petition Christ makes to the Father cannot be denied Him by the Father. So if "those whom you gave me" included Judas, then the Father would have kept Judas and made Him part of the Church (one as we are). Thus Judas was not one of the ones the Father gave to Christ. Thus Judas is not one of those that the Father gave to Christ. "None of them is lost [present tense] but Judas, the "son of perdition." Son of implies to have the nature of. Judas has the nature of a lost person.

The exception phrase, "but the son of perdition," applies to all of the above. Judas is excepted from those given Him by the Father.

None of them is lost, but the son of perdition is lost.

 

[SeaBass]

The 'us' hamas is in the plural form - the 'ye' hemas is also in the plural form because it is written to a GROUP of people collectively known as the CHURCH. The GROUP known as the CHURCH is made up of individuals. God deals with us each individually and not collectively. We 'each' stand before God and are accountable. We 'each' have been sealed - after we 'each' trusted when we heard the word of truth - we 'each' were sealed and that seal is unbreakable - until the day of redemption. The CHURCH can be spoken to collectively but the message within is for EACH individual in the church body.

And you are correct not one single individual outside the GROUP, the CHURCH body is sealed unconditionally nor conditionally!!!! Being sealed is only applicable to those who are born again of God's Spirit.

Yes, the church is made up of individuals but no individual outside the church is being addressed. So even though an individual maybe in that sealed group today, he can be come unfaithful and fall from that sealed group.

So it is the GROUP that is sealed and not the individual outside the group. Nor is there a verse that says it is impossible for one to fall away from this sealed group. Nor is there any verse that says one UNCONDITIONALLY is added to this sealed group.

Therefore one CONDITIONALLY is added to the sealed group and if one quits meeting the condition he is removed from this sealed group, Eph 1:13 cf Rev 2:1-7.

 

[BlackPlatypus]

What you don't understand, and perhaps it is because you have not yet found the Holy Spirit within you, is that a person who has been born again is a new creature. They can not help but to have the Holy Spirit inside them. They can not help but to hear the word of Christ after redemption. Because, referring back to the scripture that relates this, as his sheep who's name he knew before the foundation of the world, he called them to him. And being they are one with Christ they clearly heeded the call and were saved.
After that, there is no going back. There is no falling away. The Holy Spirit is within and they are reborn by the grace of God in Christ.

What you are arguing is the condition of those who are nominal christians. Those who do not hear the voice of Christ.

This, has no relation whatever to what Christ actually says: The lie would be that God UNCONDITIONALLY holds anyone in His hand even if that person does NOT continually hear and follow Christ.

The scripture already posted tells us that his sheep know his voice. What you are speaking of are nominal Christians. Those who attach the name, Christian, to themselves when they are not of the flock of Christ.

Too many pull verse 28 OUT OF CONTEXT and ADD eternal security to it while avoiding verse 27.

God does not hold certain individuals in His and by chance or unconditionally. Those that God holds in His hand are there in His hand for they are Christ's sheep that CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ. Those those that CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ make up "MY sheep". As long as those sheep remain faithful in thier hearing and following God is faithful to them by not allowing them to be snatched out of His hand.

Eternal security basically says one does not even have to conditionally hear and follow Christ to be a sheep of Christ nor does one have to hear and follow Christ to be in God's hand. Both of which are biblically impossible.


The lie would be the idea that anyone can be a sheep of Christ WITHOUT continually hearing and following Christ.

The lie would be that God UNCONDITIONALLY holds anyone in His hand even if that person does NOT continually hear and follow Christ.

 

[Atwood]

To Deny Eternal Security Is Satanic Heresy

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

THE STUPID PAUL VS JESUS GAME

Some want to claim that one should endorse the sayings of Jesus (as in the gospels) and deny the sayings of Paul. But both the Lord Jesus and Paul are prophets. And pasa graphē theopneustos (All scripture is God-breathed, that is created by God, breathed-out by God).

During Christ's life the Law of Moses was still in effect, and Christ endorsed every jot and title to Israel. HIs ministry was to Israel, not gentiles. He proclaimed the imminent Kingdom of God. He could have given them their Davidic Kingdom, but they rejected Him as their Messiah. In Matthew 16 the Lord predicted a new program, "I will build my Church."

The law ended at the cross. The Church began on Pentecost in Acts 2, a new program where Jew and Gentile were fused into the Body of Christ and no law of Moses was any longer in effect.

Thus, 1) all scripture is God-created, God's word, profitable and applicable, but not directly written to us. We are not commanded to build arks. We are not commanded to do animal sacrifices. We are not to follow the missionary rules of Mat 10. You can own more than 1 coat.

2) Most of the scripture which is directed at the Church starts in Acts 2, though some in John anticipates the Church (see John 14 & following).

3) If you want the scripture primarily directed at the Church, start at Acts 2. The Lord gave a law to Israel, but wrote letters to the Church. The Letters, epistles, in the NT are primary teaching for the Church, not the "sayings of Jesus" to Israel.

So this hogwash about "Paul vs Jesus" is stupid.
All is God's word; it all harmonizes.
The Lord Jesus has teaching for Israel under the law.
Paul is God's prophet with teaching for the Church.

 

[Atwood]

The lie would be that God UNCONDITIONALLY holds anyone in His hand even if that person does NOT continually hear and follow Christ. "

The ridiculous squirming attempts to negate the plain promise of the Lord Jesus are incredible. The held in His hand is an illustration He gave to give the reader security, if He is a sheep. And the holding in the hand does not negate or qualify the plain statement made:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

You see,
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins."

Once a man becomes a "His people," that man is guaranteed to be saved from his sins. End of argument.

 

[BlackPlatypus]

You're preaching to the choir when you post that to me. While your quote block that has my screen name attached to this: The lie would be that God UNCONDITIONALLY holds anyone in His hand even if that person does NOT continually hear and follow Christ.
Is in error. I never said that!


I will say that gigantic font won't persuade false teachers from arguing salvation is not eternal. If the Bible itself, God's inspired truth, can't reach them, humongous font on a message board in a Christian community won't either. What you're hoping to do is reach those sheep who are deaf to his voice.

[/FONT][/SIZE]
The ridiculous squirming attempts to negate the plain promise of the Lord Jesus are incredible. The held in His hand is an illustration He gave to give the reader security, if He is a sheep. And the holding in the hand does not negate or qualify the plain statement made:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

You see,
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins."

Once a man becomes a "His people," that man is guaranteed to be saved from his sins. End of argument.

 

[Atwood]

So it is the GROUP that is sealed and not the individual outside the group.

Of course persons outside are not sealed. But if the group is sealed, so are the individuals. For they are part of the sealed group.

Logic:
If all apples are red,
and if Joe is an apple,
Joe is red. QED

It is nonsense to say that if the group is red, the individuals may not be red.

Nor is there a verse that says it is impossible for one to fall away from this sealed group. Nor is there any verse that says one UNCONDITIONALLY is added to this sealed group.

Wrong, the sealing has NO CONDITIONS except being a believer. All believers are sealed.

if one quits meeting the condition he is removed from this sealed group, Eph 1:13 cf Rev 2:1-7.

Those verses say nothing about being removed from a sealed group. If the group is sealed, you can't unseal it no matter how hard you try. Stop adding to God's word.

ps 34

Jehovah redeems the soul of his servants;
And none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;

1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

Col 3
When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then you also with him shall be manifested in glory.

2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

< 2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom;

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Praise the author & perfecter of our faith, the Lord Jesus.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[SeaBass]

Hebrews 6:9 says the description falls short of salvation. Salvation starts with regeneration. This is not an addition to the text. Those who quote Heb and stop before 6:9 are subtracting from the text.



Also it says that those characteristics are less that a state of salvation. They could all apply to Judas (see Mat 10). "Partakers" is an unnecessary translation of μετόχους.

The Hebrews passage does not say "save, Savior, salvation, or "eternal life"

Heb 6:4,5 is describing a Christian. If Heb 6;4,5 is NOT describing a Christian then there is no such thing as a Christian.

This Christian is one that is enlightened....Col 1:13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" Acts 26:18 "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me"

One is either in darkness (lost) or in the light (saved) and those the Hebrew writer describes had come out of darkness.

They had "tasted the heavenly gift", the heavenly gift being salvation cf Rom 6:23.

"made partakers of the Holy Ghost" cf Rom 8:9. These Christian Hebrews are said to be "partakers of the heavenly calling" Heb 3:1. Both phrases representing a saved position.

The Hebrew writer in verse 6 goes on to say about these Christians "If they shall fall away, to renew them again.." How can they fall away or be RENEWED AGAIN if they were always fallen and never made new? Onlyh one who is ALREADY a Christian, ALREADY in a saved position can fall away from that saved position need need to be renewed gain to that saved position.


He 6:9 the Hebrew writer was hoping that these Christian Hebrews to whom he was writing would not have the same fate of those Christians described in verses 4-6.

 

[BlackPlatypus]

Re: To Deny Eternal Security Is Satanic Heresy

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

THE STUPID PAUL VS JESUS GAME

Some want to claim that one should endorse the sayings of Jesus (as in the gospels) and deny the sayings of Paul. But both the Lord Jesus and Paul are prophets.

Let me stop you right there.

Jesus Christ was not a Prophet!

Jesus Christ was the only begotten SON OF GOD!

Muslims argue Jesus was but a prophet!

 

[kennethcadwell]

You're preaching to the choir when you post that to me. While your quote block that has my screen name attached to this:The lie would be that God UNCONDITIONALLY holds anyone in His hand even if that person does NOT continually hear and follow Christ.
Is in error. I never said that!


I will say that gigantic font won't persuade false teachers from arguing salvation is not eternal. If the Bible itself, God's inspired truth, can't reach them, humongous font on a message board in a Christian community won't either. What you're hoping to do is reach those sheep who are deaf to his voice.

The error is that Atwood and I guess you to make assumptions toward us.

Me and some others do believe salvation is eternal.

It is how one goes about to get salvation. Believe in Jesus Christ to be saved is a good verse that I truly believe in, but my belief is not just limited to Jesus as Lord and Savior and what He did for us on the cross. It also goes to believe in what my Lord and Savior taught to the Apostles that were in turn to be passed down to us.

Jesus taught the apostles things we must do to be saved. To many cancel that part out and act as if it died with Him on the cross. His teachings were for all of us under the new covenant made by His own blood, rather your Jew or gentile.

 

[SeaBass]

Keep rejecting truth and reading in things that are not there and you know your destiny dude.........in the very text you quoted above in red you totally reject the truth of Judas so as to support your Campbellite doctrine....see if you acknowledge the truth it will begin to shoot holes in your heresy.....so be defiant against the truth and cook! but the son of perdition;....................

Originally Posted by SeaBass

Lk 6:13 "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples (includes Judas): and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles (includes Judas);."

Judas here is called both a "disciple" of Christ and "apostle" which would not be possible if he were never saved.

Jn 17:11,12 "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,.................... but the son of perdition;.................... that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Judas was one both given to Christ and kept by Christ, again not possible if he were always lost.

If someone gave me 12 different colored pencils to keep and when that person returned to get his pencils and I said "none of them are lost but the red one", I could not say that unless I was first given the red pencil to keep.

I accept the truth of Jn 17:11,2 and Lk 6:13.

 

[SeaBass]

AGAIN more CAMPBELLITE confusion over the scriptures.....you never cease to amaze HAH!

Again, no biblical refutation from you. You are only able to give me your man-made doctrine.

(The name calling is very telling that you are unable to defend your man-made theology)

 

[dcontroversal]

I accept the truth of Jn 17:11,2 and Lk 6:13.

No...you accept part of it and fail to acknowledge the truth of.....but the son of perdition <<<<<<as ap[plied unto Judas!

And in so doing reject the truth as usual in favor or Campbellite doctrine which is heretical!