PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

That there is a warning to **believers** they won't know the day or the hour; to **believers** they won't know the times or the seasons.

Wait a minute. They do TOO have the ability to recognize the times and the seasons. "When the branch is tender...then you know that summer is near". Why would you make this claim? It seems you're huffing and puffing, trying to make your theory fit into the passage. Just my impression.

So are you saying that 24:36-44 is not **after** these things? Or are you suggesting all of the first part of Matthew 24 occurs simultaneous to 24:36-44?

Again, all of this is very, very, very simple to me -- first the abomination...then the great tribulation...at the end of the tribulation, there is the "gathering".

I guess I just don't yet understand what you're saying or arguing. Other than...you're trying to fit a phantom "PreTrib rapture" into the text. You would need to divorce verse 30's mention of the "coming of the Son of Man"..from verse 36's mention of the "coming of the Son of Man" --

Verse 30 -- "they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds..."

Verse 36, 37 -- "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah...".

Apparently, you're trying to argue these are two different "comings" even though mentioned a couple of verses apart? That's a disconnect for me. That is flat-out wrenching the Scriptures. The text is obviously referring to the same event.

It appears to me you yourself are moving the events of 24:36-44 to somewhere else on the prophetic timeline and that you don't hold that there is a strict chronology of Matthew 24.

Don't know what you mean. The chronology is ultra-simple-- 1) The abomination 2) great trib 3) the gathering (accompanied by cosmic signs).

Verses 36 through 41 are referring to the "gathering". What's not to understand? Verse 42 is once again hearkening back to the "coming of the Lord" described previously in verse 30 and 36, 37:

"Therefore be on the alert for you do not know which day your Lord is coming."

I don't think it's an indirect reference at all

My friend, there is NO reference at ALL. Come on now. IF...there were a previously established doctrine of PreTrib where you could point to some other passage which clearly depicted PreTrib...you might have a prayer. But even then...the text is so plain...in the way it repeatedly refers to the "coming of the Lord" occurring just "after the tribulation of those days".

The coming of the Lord occurs AFTER the tribulation. It's stated directly in the text...in verses 30 and 36, 37.

you are advocating moving this narrative someplace else on the time line.

I'm not advocating moving anything. (?) Whatever your struggles are with some of the descriptions Jesus provides...you can't concoct a completely and totally unmentioned "rapture" previous to the entire 70th Week and claim that is being described in matthew 24. My goodness! PreTribbers haven't previously established the existence of this doctrine anywhere else..so why should they think they can do it NOW? Without further ado, announce the existence of this (still unmentioned) doctrine and claim it is found in Matthew 24???

that LARGE "stars" have hit the earth

Who said "LARGE" stars have hit the earth? The "stars falling from the sky" is a commonly-used legit expression...not meant to be taken hyper-literally. A hyper-literalist here would have to concede that just one literal "star" would absolutely obliterate and pulverize the entire planet. No, "stars falling from the sky" is just used as the common expression we all understand -- there will be an appearance of innumerable stars falling from the sky...probably (or maybe) because planet earth will be traveling (providentially) through a huge cosmic dust cloud (the tail of a comet or something).

that genocide of believers and Jews are occurring, there are false Christs up the wazoo, (from Revelation) that people are taking the mark of the beast ... and yet Christ warns **believers** that they know not when their Lord comes. That there is a warning to **believers** they won't know the day or the hour; to **believers** they won't know the times or the seasons.

That's right. They...won't...know. But wait -- you're twisting a bit. Come on now -- it's not that they won't "know when"...it's that they won't know "the day or hour". They'll know it's close. No more than 2 or 3 years away...because, if they're good Bible students, they will know that the Great Tribulation AND the "day of the Lord" BOTH need to fit inside these 1260 days.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

By the way Matt-to-For - I am not totally sure of what theological end time persuasion you are, you know I am pre-trib.

However, for me - It is only the a-mil position or post-mil position that I **strongly** disagree with, there are good believers in those camps as well.

Don't know if I fit in a category. I'm very close to "PreWrath". In fact, I owe a huge debt to Marvin Rosenthal and Robert VanKampen (authors).

For us Dispensationalists (and again, unsure if that is where you find yourself) - I know there is a wide range of disagreements as to exactly where the rapture fits if at all, but in the end ... we're all ascending together (even the amil and postmil).

In no way, shape or from am I a "dispensationalist". I certainly agree that the Jewish religious "dispensation" ended at the cross. But...not sure what any given individual actually means with the term "dispensationalist".

I strongly defend Israel as a nation, and that is really the non-negotiable to me. Our previous discussion is "in house" banter to me, but am happy to call you a brother in the Lord if you've accepted Christ as your personal Savior.

I don't recall a previous discussion. But God will need no help in setting up the Davidic kingdom of Israel in the post-apocalypse. I'm never sure what Evangelicals think they're accomplishing in supporting a hyper-secular (or worse) government of Israel.

The Jewish people have been gathered to "Israel" by the powers that be...so that they can be slaughtered. Which Bible student doesn't know that? And yet...there is a weird 'double-think' going...whereby Evangelicals insist we must gather millions of Jews into one convenient death zone...even though they know from their Bibles that Israel is a pre-planned death zone. Amazingly bizarre to me.

People who have a heart for Jewish people ought to encourage as many Jews as they can,...to STAY AS FAR AWAY from "Israel" as they can. If every Jew listened to me, "Israel" would be a huge ghost-town.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

how many days of food do you have stored? do you recommend having a gun also? a regular handgun, or an AK-47?

Are you asking because you think it would be silly to have such things? Or are you trying to figure out what some Christians might be doing in preparation for calamity? Just wondering.

 

[dcontroversal]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

DC,,,,hope this finds you well this evening..... If the above is erroneous then none of the Bible can be trusted to be true. REM it is inspired, written from/by GOD (Inerrant)

It is not erroneous... The seals are a judgement of God. From the Rapture, there is a pause, of unknown time period, a Rapture/Tribulation Gap' (one might say). The 1st seal shows us the antichrist is revealed. This was a prerequisite of Daniel's prophecy where the Church is to be removed prior to the antichrist's appearance on the world stage.

Between the 1st and the 4th seal the antichrist has time to come to popularity and world power. He has to be at world power because he "Confirms" a convenient with Israel in the 5th seal. This deal is prophesied in Isaiah 28:15. Here, Israel is Prophesied as making a deal with Death and Hell. It just so happens that the 4th seal rider(s) (x2) are named "Death and Hell" ...

Of course the 5th seal shows that a group of Martyred saints (under the altar) appearing to John in Heaven.. It is funny that they Cry to the LORD about 'How much longer must they wait for retribution of their deaths'. What is funnier is that God tells them they have to wait a while until others that will die as they did is fulfilled. These Tribulations Saints are brought seen in Rev. 7:14 ......Where did they come from,,,, most likely evangelized by the 144,000. John asked an ELDER in verse 13 and the ELDER tells him they came out of the "Great Tribulation"....HUMMMMMMMMM the "Great Tribulations" does not start until Rev. 12.... We see in REV 11,,, the temple is rebuilt and in Rev. 12 the woman (Israel) to the mountains in the south. I guess the Abomination of Desolation just took place.

Now would you like to debate the above or other?

Either way,,,have a great evening my friend/.

John was told to write what he sees....end of story...when the sun goes dark, the moon does not give it's light and stars fall from heaven while it is ripped open to reveal the face of the son of God HUMANITY that is LOST attempts to HIDE and they ARE THE ONES SAYING that the WRATH of GOD is here.....God, JOHN, Gabriel or no other angel or source STATES that the wrath of GOD is here....NOW at the 7th TRUMP there is an ANNOUNCEMENT MADE IN HEAVEN before the THRONE that GOD'S wrath has arrived.......

MY statement stands....regardless of those who reject it.....and the bible does not deal with MOST LIKELY..........but rather ABSOLUTES.... MIGO

 

[dcontroversal]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Are you asking because you think it would be silly to have such things? Or are you trying to figure out what some Christians might be doing in preparation for calamity? Just wondering.

Destiny favors the prepared HAH

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Are you asking because you think it would be silly to have such things? Or are you trying to figure out what some Christians might be doing in preparation for calamity? Just wondering.

I'm trying to figure out what kind of preparations you're advising, and how they will be used if you meet up with the Antichrist or those loyal to him.

 

[PeterJames]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Don't know if I fit in a category. I'm very close to "PreWrath". In fact, I owe a huge debt to Marvin Rosenthal and Robert VanKampen (authors).

That is very strange. You say you owe a debt to Marvin Rosenthal, but Marvin's ministry, zionshope.org, is highly supportive of God's chosen people, Israel. Are you not?

Perhaps you are more in line with Steven Anderson's pre-wrath post-trib position in which he says the Jews currently today are of Satan, and not of God? Maybe more in line with Anderson's video (which you can see for yourself online) - called Marching to Zion?

Anyways, I am pro-Israel, not against her.

 

[PeterJames]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

That's right. They...won't...know. But wait -- you're twisting a bit. Come on now -- it's not that they won't "know when"...it's that they won't know "the day or hour". They'll know it's close. No more than 2 or 3 years away...because, if they're good Bible students, they will know that the Great Tribulation AND the "day of the Lord" BOTH need to fit inside these 1260 days.

Here is the crux of the problem, my friend. Did God really say?

You have hit the nail on the head. You do not believe in an imminent return, nor do you believe the scriptures support it. You claim that not knowing the day or the hour doesn't mean they won't know the general time period that Christ will return.

But I see no twisting here for several reasons:

1) Christ said no one would know the day or the hour
2) Christ said He comes as a thief in the night (and He directed these comments to believers. He did not say only those who are not looking would not know when Christ comes; He says no man knows, period. He also said that if the goodman of the house knew when the thief was coming, he would have watched. But that's the point; we don't know when to watch, so we start watching today for His glorious appearing.)

3) That is not twisting the scriptures. But if that is not enough, Paul told us that we would not know the "times" or the "seasons", the chronos or the cairos to the Day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2. It is **all** covered; we will not know the 'day or the hour', and we will not know *any* general time period either, ie, 2 years from now or 4 years from now, etc.

You will have to deal with that in your own theological framework; something is imminent in Matthew 24:36-44. Deny it if you wish, but no day, no hour, thief in the night, no announcement, no times, no seasons, etc.: that seems to me to be pretty *strong* language of something being "imminent", even if you choose not to believe in a pre-trib rapture.

I would also challenge you that we can't pick and choose. Our entire understanding of the Tribulation period, of the events unfolding owes a great debt to Dispensationalism. If you decide you are not dispensationalist, then I suggest that post-mil is your better choice. In a post-mil approach, Matthew 24 is neither literal or imminent.

But to think that you can take Matthew 24 literally and not be dispensational ... the whole idea that Matthew 24 is to be taken literally fully or in part is somewhat premised on a distinction between Israel and the Church. Otherwise, both Israel and the Church could be combined, confused, or reassigned to each other.

- Peter James

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I'm trying to figure out what kind of preparations you're advising, and how they will be used if you meet up with the Antichrist or those loyal to him.

Yep,their" prepping for trib" seems so ridiculous.

Noah,lot,and the 10 virgins were prepping to leave

 

[JesusRules1]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I'm trying to figure out what kind of preparations you're advising, and how they will be used if you meet up with the Antichrist or those loyal to him.

The only preparation is to be strong in the Spirit,and God said do not fight back,for what He allows do not fight against it,and the beast has power to rule for three and one half years,and the saints shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years,and he shall destroy the mighty and holy people physically.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I'm trying to figure out what kind of preparations you're advising, and how they will be used if you meet up with the Antichrist or those loyal to him.

I happen to have about 6 months of food. Plenty of water. I have devices that can extract drinking water from contaminated sources (a mud puddle, for example). My household has always had guns -- hunting rifles, shotguns, handguns. We also have innumerable 'survivalist' type devices. You name it.

But only God knows what someone will eventually need. I can think of only extremely rare scenarios where a gun would actually come into play. Certainly, if an Antichrist SWAT team comes to my door -- forget it! No gun battles for me. Would we need a 'mobile' strategy (bug out) or a stationary strategy? To me, the most important component of my survival strategy (if I were to live to the days of great tribulation)...is the prayer which Jesus prescribes "pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen".

So few people are honoring God in following His advice to pray this prayer...for me it's the key aspect. After all, a lot of worthy believers may not have the strength or the resources to flee or dig in somewhere...but whom God will nevertheless protect.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

That is very strange. You say you owe a debt to Marvin Rosenthal, but Marvin's ministry, zionshope.org, is highly supportive of God's chosen people, Israel. Are you not?

Yes, I owe Rosenthal a debt? What of it - lol? I don't care if he's a Zionist. I don't agree with it. Still owe him a debt though.

Perhaps you are more in line with Steven Anderson's pre-wrath post-trib position in which he says the Jews currently today are of Satan, and not of God? Maybe more in line with Anderson's video (which you can see for yourself online) - called Marching to Zion?

Jews are of Satan?? Come on. The purpose of Zionism is to collect as many millions of Jews into one convenient kill zone as possible. And any Bible student should know better.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

You claim that not knowing the day or the hour doesn't mean they won't know the general time period that Christ will return.

My friend, once the abomination of desolation goes down, any Bible student worth his salt will know there is a maximum of 1260 days left to the bitter end. What's not to understand here?

Paul told us that we would not know the "times" or the "seasons", the chronos or the cairos to the Day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2.

Paul says no such thing in that passage. And in any case, all you would have accomplished with your (IMO) wrenched interp of 1 Thessalonians...is to create a contradiction with Matthew 24 which says we CAN discern the seasons. Why are you doing that??

You will have to deal with that in your own theological framework; something is imminent in Matthew 24:36-44.

I won't need to "deal" with anything -- lol. And there IS no imminency. The entire first generation of the Christian era HAD no imminency because they were all waiting for Peter to arrive at old age, at which time he was to be martyred according to Jesus' prophecy. END OF THE LINE for "imminency".

I would argue you are not seeing the forest for the trees. Let's bring the Olivet Discourse down to its real level:

The Discourse was delivered to real people who really received this lesson hour and Jesus really taught these things directly to real people. Peter, James, John, and Andrew (and whoever else may have been there) were real.

When they asked Jesus to tell them about the end times, He really told them what they should actually and really expect. He told them they needed to live with an expectation of encountering the Abomination of Desolation...after which they would experience the Great Tribulation...after which they would experience being "gathered" into the arms of Jesus.

SO...if you, PeterJames, were to have pulled Peter, James or John aside...let's say 15 or 20 years into their earthly ministry and have a conversation with them, here's how I think the discussion would have gone:

PeterJames: So, what is your belief regarding the 'end times' and the coming of the Lord?

James: We asked Jesus about that and He told us to live with an expectation of going through the abomination and the subsequent Great Tribulation...followed by the gathering of the elect.

PeterJames: Well, but wait a minute. You guys are the top leaders of the Christian movement. Obviously, you're suppose to hold to a PreTrib rapture position.

James: Hold to a...what?

PeterJames: Don't you know that believers are going to be gathered/raptured BEFORE the entire 70th Week?

James: No. Why would there be a teaching which flatly contradicts Jesus' words to us...that we are to be gathered 'after the tribulation of those days'? Where and when was information put forth which contradicts Jesus crystal-clear teaching about a post-'great trib' gathering??

PeterJames: Oh dude, it's right there in Matthew 24. Just after Jesus got though describing a post-trib gathering to you guys...He then went on to describe a PRE-trib gathering also.

James: Uh...which gathering am I supposed to be looking out for? And why would Jesus teach both a post-trib AND a pre-trib rapture?

 

[PeterJames]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

My friend, once the abomination of desolation goes down, any Bible student worth his salt will know there is a maximum of 1260 days left to the bitter end. What's not to understand here?

Paul says no such thing in that passage. And in any case, all you would have accomplished with your (IMO) wrenched interp of 1 Thessalonians...is to create a contradiction with Matthew 24 which says we CAN discern the seasons. Why are you doing that??

I won't need to "deal" with anything -- lol. And there IS no imminency. The entire first generation of the Christian era HAD no imminency because they were all waiting for Peter to arrive at old age, at which time he was to be martyred according to Jesus' prophecy. END OF THE LINE for "imminency".

I would argue you are not seeing the forest for the trees. Let's bring the Olivet Discourse down to its real level:

The Discourse was delivered to real people who really received this lesson hour and Jesus really taught these things directly to real people. Peter, James, John, and Andrew (and whoever else may have been there) were real.

When they asked Jesus to tell them about the end times, He really told them what they should actually and really expect. He told them they needed to live with an expectation of encountering the Abomination of Desolation...after which they would experience the Great Tribulation...after which they would experience being "gathered" into the arms of Jesus.

SO...if you, PeterJames, were to have pulled Peter, James or John aside...let's say 15 or 20 years into their earthly ministry and have a conversation with them, here's how I think the discussion would have gone:

PeterJames: So, what is your belief regarding the 'end times' and the coming of the Lord?

James: We asked Jesus about that and He told us to live with an expectation of going through the abomination and the subsequent Great Tribulation...followed by the gathering of the elect.

PeterJames: Well, but wait a minute. You guys are the top leaders of the Christian movement. Obviously, you're suppose to hold to a PreTrib rapture position.

James: Hold to a...what?

PeterJames: Don't you know that believers are going to be gathered/raptured BEFORE the entire 70th Week?

James: No. Why would there be a teaching which flatly contradicts Jesus' words to us...that we are to be gathered 'after the tribulation of those days'? Where and when was information put forth which contradicts Jesus crystal-clear teaching about a post-'great trib' gathering??

PeterJames: Oh dude, it's right there in Matthew 24. Just after Jesus got though describing a post-trib gathering to you guys...He then went on to describe a PRE-trib gathering also.

James: Uh...which gathering am I supposed to be looking out for? And why would Jesus teach both a post-trib AND a pre-trib rapture?

I don't have the time this morning to respond to this message, but I will have to say that the conversation would go nothing like that. You have put words into my mouth and the worst thing someone can do when discussing theological points with someone else is to directly and personally insult them or put words into their mouths pretending to be an expert at what they may say.

The point is, I don't expect the apostles to use eschatalogical terms we use today to describe end times event and the fact that they are not here to talk to is a major problem to **all** eschatalogical viewpoints.

Yes, I am going to say this whether you like it or not. Pre-mil, A-mil, Post-mil, pre-trib, pre-wrath, post trib, mid-trip, and pan - mill ---> they **all** have their faults as a system. The one I think is least problematic is the hated (in your opinion) Zionist Pre-trib or pre-wrath position, with strong deference to imminent rapture.

I've asked for an explanation of our 'thief in the night', 'don't know times or seasons', don't know days or hours, etc. could possibly line up with your belief that all Christians will know the exact timing of the rapture and still haven't seen a satisfactory exegesis on this point.

By the way, there is a lesser know view called Imminent Pre-wrath, which while I find highly unlikely - at least it recognizes that the Scripture teaches imminency.

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Wait a minute. They do TOO have the ability to recognize the times and the seasons. "When the branch is tender...then you know that summer is near". Why would you make this claim? It seems you're huffing and puffing, trying to make your theory fit into the passage. Just my impression.

Again, all of this is very, very, very simple to me -- first the abomination...then the great tribulation...at the end of the tribulation, there is the "gathering".

I guess I just don't yet understand what you're saying or arguing. Other than...you're trying to fit a phantom "PreTrib rapture" into the text. You would need to divorce verse 30's mention of the "coming of the Son of Man"..from verse 36's mention of the "coming of the Son of Man" --

Verse 30 -- "they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds..."

Verse 36, 37 -- "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah...".

Apparently, you're trying to argue these are two different "comings" even though mentioned a couple of verses apart? That's a disconnect for me. That is flat-out wrenching the Scriptures. The text is obviously referring to the same event.

Don't know what you mean. The chronology is ultra-simple-- 1) The abomination 2) great trib 3) the gathering (accompanied by cosmic signs).

Verses 36 through 41 are referring to the "gathering". What's not to understand? Verse 42 is once again hearkening back to the "coming of the Lord" described previously in verse 30 and 36, 37:

"Therefore be on the alert for you do not know which day your Lord is coming."

My friend, there is NO reference at ALL. Come on now. IF...there were a previously established doctrine of PreTrib where you could point to some other passage which clearly depicted PreTrib...you might have a prayer. But even then...the text is so plain...in the way it repeatedly refers to the "coming of the Lord" occurring just "after the tribulation of those days".

The coming of the Lord occurs AFTER the tribulation. It's stated directly in the text...in verses 30 and 36, 37.

I'm not advocating moving anything. (?) Whatever your struggles are with some of the descriptions Jesus provides...you can't concoct a completely and totally unmentioned "rapture" previous to the entire 70th Week and claim that is being described in matthew 24. My goodness! PreTribbers haven't previously established the existence of this doctrine anywhere else..so why should they think they can do it NOW? Without further ado, announce the existence of this (still unmentioned) doctrine and claim it is found in Matthew 24???

Who said "LARGE" stars have hit the earth? The "stars falling from the sky" is a commonly-used legit expression...not meant to be taken hyper-literally. A hyper-literalist here would have to concede that just one literal "star" would absolutely obliterate and pulverize the entire planet. No, "stars falling from the sky" is just used as the common expression we all understand -- there will be an appearance of innumerable stars falling from the sky...probably (or maybe) because planet earth will be traveling (providentially) through a huge cosmic dust cloud (the tail of a comet or something).

That's right. They...won't...know. But wait -- you're twisting a bit. Come on now -- it's not that they won't "know when"...it's that they won't know "the day or hour". They'll know it's close. No more than 2 or 3 years away...because, if they're good Bible students, they will know that the Great Tribulation AND the "day of the Lord" BOTH need to fit inside these 1260 days.

".....at the end of the tribulation there is a gathering "

So then you proceed to shove all our verses off the table to MAKE that say it is the rapture.

READ REV 14.

IT ALONE DESTROYS YOUR DEAL.

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Yes, I owe Rosenthal a debt? What of it - lol? I don't care if he's a Zionist. I don't agree with it. Still owe him a debt though.



Jews are of Satan?? Come on. The purpose of Zionism is to collect as many millions of Jews into one convenient kill zone as possible. And any Bible student should know better.

I don't think you are supposed to use this site to advance your erroneous website.

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

My friend, once the abomination of desolation goes down, any Bible student worth his salt will know there is a maximum of 1260 days left to the bitter end. What's not to understand here?

Paul says no such thing in that passage. And in any case, all you would have accomplished with your (IMO) wrenched interp of 1 Thessalonians...is to create a contradiction with Matthew 24 which says we CAN discern the seasons. Why are you doing that??

I won't need to "deal" with anything -- lol. And there IS no imminency. The entire first generation of the Christian era HAD no imminency because they were all waiting for Peter to arrive at old age, at which time he was to be martyred according to Jesus' prophecy. END OF THE LINE for "imminency".

I would argue you are not seeing the forest for the trees. Let's bring the Olivet Discourse down to its real level:

The Discourse was delivered to real people who really received this lesson hour and Jesus really taught these things directly to real people. Peter, James, John, and Andrew (and whoever else may have been there) were real.

When they asked Jesus to tell them about the end times, He really told them what they should actually and really expect. He told them they needed to live with an expectation of encountering the Abomination of Desolation...after which they would experience the Great Tribulation...after which they would experience being "gathered" into the arms of Jesus.

SO...if you, PeterJames, were to have pulled Peter, James or John aside...let's say 15 or 20 years into their earthly ministry and have a conversation with them, here's how I think the discussion would have gone:

PeterJames: So, what is your belief regarding the 'end times' and the coming of the Lord?

James: We asked Jesus about that and He told us to live with an expectation of going through the abomination and the subsequent Great Tribulation...followed by the gathering of the elect.

PeterJames: Well, but wait a minute. You guys are the top leaders of the Christian movement. Obviously, you're suppose to hold to a PreTrib rapture position.

James: Hold to a...what?

PeterJames: Don't you know that believers are going to be gathered/raptured BEFORE the entire 70th Week?

James: No. Why would there be a teaching which flatly contradicts Jesus' words to us...that we are to be gathered 'after the tribulation of those days'? Where and when was information put forth which contradicts Jesus crystal-clear teaching about a post-'great trib' gathering??

PeterJames: Oh dude, it's right there in Matthew 24. Just after Jesus got though describing a post-trib gathering to you guys...He then went on to describe a PRE-trib gathering also.

James: Uh...which gathering am I supposed to be looking out for? And why would Jesus teach both a post-trib AND a pre-trib rapture?

no wonder you don't want pretrib adherents in your thread.

You have to get crazy with your deal to trade punches with us.

Your deal is so busted. You need our verses to vanish to get any traction at all.

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Are you asking because you think it would be silly to have such things? Or are you trying to figure out what some Christians might be doing in preparation for calamity? Just wondering.

More ridiculous mess.

Noah,lot,the 10 virgins,all were prepping .

PREPPING TO LEAVE.

You are advising the opposite.
You seem to have a tendency to position yourself erroneously

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Yep,their" prepping for trib" seems so ridiculous.

Noah,lot,and the 10 virgins were prepping to leave

true!

Noah built an ark to prep for the flood.

but with food, one week's worth won't be of much value if there's a great famine that lasts for years.

with military hardware, does one plan on using it vs the Antichrist?

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

The only preparation is to be strong in the Spirit,and God said do not fight back,for what He allows do not fight against it,and the beast has power to rule for three and one half years,and the saints shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years,and he shall destroy the mighty and holy people physically.

Yes, that sounds right...

no sense trying to stop the Antichrist with your assault rifle.