PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

You have put words into my mouth and the worst thing someone can do when discussing theological points with someone else is to directly and personally insult them or put words into their mouths pretending to be an expert at what they may say.

I didn't know there was a "rule". It's just a device. I understand you to be saying Jesus is describing two different "raptures" in the space of a few verses in Matthew 24. I'm trying to get you to see this passage needs to be viewed in its context of reality. Jesus was speaking to real people who needed to go away from that lesson hour with a realistic, practical understanding. How in the world should they proceed if your idea that Jesus was teaching two conflicting ideas were actually true? Makes no sense.

Yes, I am going to say this whether you like it or not. Pre-mil, A-mil, Post-mil, pre-trib, pre-wrath, post trib, mid-trip, and pan - mill ---> they **all** have their faults as a system. The one I think is least problematic is the hated (in your opinion) Zionist Pre-trib or pre-wrath position, with strong deference to imminent rapture.

You seem real preoccupied with labels. I'm more of a "let's look at a given passage of Scripture and let the passage speak for itself" kind of a guy.

You say "the hated Zionist" position? No, Zionism is wildly popular in the mainstream conservative Christian crowd. I'm the one on the outside looking in. I'm the one who has to take all the guff. Just notice this Popeye guy right here, with all the sneering snarking unpleasantness. Just a 'day in the life' for me.

your belief that all Christians will know the exact timing of the rapture

Bro, I don't know "the exact timing". Where do you get that? "...no one knows the day or hour".

- at least it recognizes that the Scripture teaches imminency.

I've slam-dunked "imminency" twice now. When did you want to address the evidence I have presented about Peter's prophesied martyrdom? And there are OTHER problems with "imminency":

Because PreTrib believes the "day of the Lord" is identical to the 70th Week...there are any number of events which the Bible says occur BEFORE the "day of the Lord" and which then also negate "imminency".

For example, Malachi 4:5 states -- "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord."

So now, PreTrib needs to belatedly and arbitrarily revise their position and claim their "rapture" occurs not only before the 70th Week...but now also before this appearance of Elijah. The problem is...PreTrib is actually so sloppy and has sooo many unresolved loose ends, no one has even bothered to make an argument about this. Not MacArthur, not LaHaye, not Hal Lindsey. Nobody.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Yes, that sounds right...

no sense trying to stop the Antichrist with your assault rifle.

OK so...you were sort of fibbing...being deceptive. I asked if your question was sincere as opposed to just setting me up to knock me down. How lovely of you.

And your "Antichrist" remark is a rather dumb generalization. There are a hundred and a thousand ways in which America might unravel into chaos and disorder. We seem, for example, to be headed for an impending collapse of the economy. A collapse of the Dollar. It wouldn't necessarily begin with the Antichrist personally knocking on my door. - LOL. There is almost certainly going to be a lot of chaos and disorder, long before the actual "abomination of desolation".

If you're one of these people that believes in a Magical America that will never fall and never fail because, after all, God has a "special blessing" of protection for America...and we're going to enjoy unending prosperity, weekly $300 trips to the grocery store, an endless sea of Starbucks, and annual vacations to Disneyland...good luck with that.

Any other phony, insincere questions for me, fire away!

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

no wonder you don't want pretrib adherents in your thread.

You have to get crazy with your deal to trade punches with us.

Your deal is so busted. You need our verses to vanish to get any traction at all.

You're going to need to lengthen your statements beyond that of a bumper sticker. No clue what you're trying to say. I certainly can tell you're trying to be unpleasant. But beyond that, no idea.

And I've stated point-blank, "PreTribbers" are welcome by me. Just not Preterists. (Although I have no power to stop anyone.) But feel free to feign misunderstanding. Here is my post to you about that. What was there about that you could have misunderstood?

Feel free to pull up a chair. Begin calmly making any arguments you may have. I won't bite.

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

You're going to need to lengthen your statements beyond that of a bumper sticker. No clue what you're trying to say. I certainly can tell you're trying to be unpleasant. But beyond that, no idea.

And I've stated point-blank, "PreTribbers" are welcome by me. Just not Preterists. (Although I have no power to stop anyone.) But feel free to feign misunderstanding. Here is my post to you about that. What was there about that you could have misunderstood?

Feel free to pull up a chair. Begin calmly making any arguments you may have. I won't bite.

For someone stuck on etiquette you sure are rude and condescending.

You postribs need all that mess to keep the discussion out of the bible.

I will note your superior knowledge has us doing just that.
I posted my objections to your deal. You come back with rabbit trails.

Get a bible and include our verses. Not interested on your dead men you resurrect to attempt diversions.

All I need is a bible,wish you guys could get one and stick to it.

 

[Magenta]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

OK so...you were sort of fibbing...being deceptive. I asked if your question was sincere as opposed to just setting me up to knock me down. How lovely of you.

And your "Antichrist" remark is a rather dumb generalization. There are a hundred and a thousand ways in which America might unravel into chaos and disorder. We seem, for example, to be headed for an impending collapse of the economy. A collapse of the Dollar. It wouldn't necessarily begin with the Antichrist personally knocking on my door. - LOL. There is almost certainly going to be a lot of chaos and disorder, long before the actual "abomination of desolation".

If you're one of these people that believes in a Magical America that will never fall and never fail because, after all, God has a "special blessing" of protection for America...and we're going to enjoy unending prosperity, weekly $300 trips to the grocery store, an endless sea of Starbucks, and annual vacations to Disneyland...good luck with that.

Any other phony, insincere questions for me, fire away!

Dan was not even speaking to you with that comment that garners this diatribe in response from you

 

[PeterJames]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

You're going to need to lengthen your statements beyond that of a bumper sticker. No clue what you're trying to say. I certainly can tell you're trying to be unpleasant. But beyond that, no idea.

And I've stated point-blank, "PreTribbers" are welcome by me. Just not Preterists. (Although I have no power to stop anyone.) But feel free to feign misunderstanding. Here is my post to you about that. What was there about that you could have misunderstood?

Feel free to pull up a chair. Begin calmly making any arguments you may have. I won't bite.

I disagree with you. You do bite with a very snark response that is in my opinion not conducive for a Christian.

I have given my arguments and reasons for the pre-trib rapture. I am not saying any more. Let the chips fall where they may and let people make judgments of my own words rather than the words you attribute to me. (And Yes, I know this conversation quote up above is not my conversation. I just find your words very ironic in light of our previous interactions.)

 

[PeterJames]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I don't think you are supposed to use this site to advance your erroneous website.

My apologies Popeye! I mentioned a DVD that I would not recommend, was just trying to see if Matt agreed with that website. My fault, I won't mention specific websites or DVDs anymore so as to not cause confusion.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I disagree with you. You do bite with a very snark response that is in my opinion not conducive for a Christian.

You "disagree" with me that this guy has been snarky? He's got about ten posts on this thread directed at me, every one of them unpleasant jabs.

And you say I have been snarky towards you? That is a false and dishonest accusation. Shame on you. Where was I "snarky"? My 'make believe' conversation between you and "James" was merely a 'device' used for clarification. I didn't "attribute" anything to you that you couldn't routinely correct or adjust in your very next post. There's no insult there. Good grief. If you're looking for some way to bail out of the conversation...by all means, fire off a few false, dishonest accusations.

So we're never going to find out how you explain your "two raptures" theory? I was actually interested to find out. Oh well.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Dan was not even speaking to you with that comment that garners this diatribe in response from you

And I wasn't speaking to you with my comments which have elicited your 'reprimand'. Have you now broken your own rule?

I specifically asked the guy if he was looking for my advice or if he was just trying to knock my views. He misled me. It was stinky.

 

[PeterJames]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

You "disagree" with me that this guy has been snarky? He's got about ten posts on this thread directed at me, every one of them unpleasant jabs.

And you say I have been snarky towards you? That is a false and dishonest accusation. Shame on you. Where was I "snarky"? My 'make believe' conversation between you and "James" was merely a 'device' used for clarification. I didn't "attribute" anything to you that you couldn't routinely correct or adjust in your very next post. There's no insult there. Good grief. If you're looking for some way to bail out of the conversation...by all means, fire off a few false, dishonest accusations.

So we're never going to find out how you explain your "two raptures" theory? I was actually interested to find out. Oh well.

Please Matt, you were not interested in finding out especially since I've already said all I'm going to say about it. My first post was and always has been quite clear.

When you start talking civil again, I'm more than happy to discuss items in a healthy and respectful environment. I extended the olive branch already by calling you a brother. I'm sorry you decided not to take it.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

For someone stuck on etiquette you sure are rude and condescending.

Well, at the very least...it takes one to know one. But I have no clue what you're talking about. YOU'RE the one who has been unfailingly unpleasant for the entire duration of this thread.

If you're spiritually superior to me, as you've implied about a dozen times now...why don't you 'role model' decent Christian behavior so I can finally learn what that looks like? Just an idea.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Please Matt, you were not interested in finding out especially since I've already said all I'm going to say about it. My first post was and always has been quite clear.

When you start talking civil again, I'm more than happy to discuss items in a healthy and respectful environment. I extended the olive branch already by calling you a brother. I'm sorry you decided not to take it.

Wow --you've packed about five false accusations into 20 words. Must be some kind of record. I didn't mistreat you in any way.

If you're still here (even though you said you were done)...I simply ask again -- how do you propose to fit two raptures into Matthew 24? There's no unpleasantness there. No snark. No nothing. Just a question.

And if I've misunderstood your position...well, then I've misunderstood your position. No need for the snarky comment about how you were clear from the beginning. Obviously, I'm not understanding aspects of your beliefs. Where did this discussion go off the rails? I'm flabbergasted. If you don't like my "device" wherein I depict an imaginary conversation...fine, it'll never happen again, ever! Fair enough?

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

true!

Noah built an ark to prep for the flood.

but with food, one week's worth won't be of much value if there's a great famine that lasts for years.

with military hardware, does one plan on using it vs the Antichrist?

That's what I told my wife.

Suppose my neighbors are starving. I would not withhold my food from them.

So,what's the point of "hunkering down" to a man of God?

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Well, at the very least...it takes one to know one. But I have no clue what you're talking about. YOU'RE the one who has been unfailingly unpleasant for the entire duration of this thread.

If you're spiritually superior to me, as you've implied about a dozen times now...why don't you 'role model' decent Christian behavior so I can finally learn what that looks like? Just an idea.

Got bible?

Not interested in all the other forks on the road.

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

My apologies Popeye! I mentioned a DVD that I would not recommend, was just trying to see if Matt agreed with that website. My fault, I won't mention specific websites or DVDs anymore so as to not cause confusion.

Not sure what you are referring to.

I clicked on mats deal and it is typical "shoot the messenger " mess that goes on and on and on endlessly.

 

[Enow]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Just a reminder:

Galatians 5:[SUP]14 [/SUP]For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[SUP]15 [/SUP]But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.[SUP]16 [/SUP]This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

We all should know how patient the Lord Jesus Christ has been with us in our walk with Him, and since we are not perfect yet, may we all lean on Him to help us do unto others as we wish they would do unto us; and not return evil for evil.

Romans 12:[SUP]16 [/SUP]Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.[SUP]17 [/SUP]Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.[SUP]18 [/SUP]If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

And yet, we are to love one another to tell each other the truth.

Ephesians 5:[SUP]10 [/SUP]Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.[SUP]11 [/SUP]And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Romans 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.[SUP]2 [/SUP]And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1 Corinthians 3:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?[SUP]6 [/SUP]I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.[SUP]7 [/SUP]So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I happen to have about 6 months of food. Plenty of water. I have devices that can extract drinking water from contaminated sources (a mud puddle, for example). My household has always had guns -- hunting rifles, shotguns, handguns. We also have innumerable 'survivalist' type devices. You name it.

But only God knows what someone will eventually need. I can think of only extremely rare scenarios where a gun would actually come into play. Certainly, if an Antichrist SWAT team comes to my door -- forget it! No gun battles for me. Would we need a 'mobile' strategy (bug out) or a stationary strategy? To me, the most important component of my survival strategy (if I were to live to the days of great tribulation)...is the prayer which Jesus prescribes "pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen".

So few people are honoring God in following His advice to pray this prayer...for me it's the key aspect. After all, a lot of worthy believers may not have the strength or the resources to flee or dig in somewhere...but whom God will nevertheless protect.

right! if the Antichrist decides to persecute us, no amount of prepping or strategies is going to help us.

so yes, I too would recommend "stay alert at all times, pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen" to all Christians at all times.

 

[Dan_473]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

OK so...you were sort of fibbing...being deceptive. I asked if your question was sincere as opposed to just setting me up to knock me down. How lovely of you.

And your "Antichrist" remark is a rather dumb generalization. There are a hundred and a thousand ways in which America might unravel into chaos and disorder. We seem, for example, to be headed for an impending collapse of the economy. A collapse of the Dollar. It wouldn't necessarily begin with the Antichrist personally knocking on my door. - LOL. There is almost certainly going to be a lot of chaos and disorder, long before the actual "abomination of desolation".

If you're one of these people that believes in a Magical America that will never fall and never fail because, after all, God has a "special blessing" of protection for America...and we're going to enjoy unending prosperity, weekly $300 trips to the grocery store, an endless sea of Starbucks, and annual vacations to Disneyland...good luck with that.

Any other phony, insincere questions for me, fire away!

I don't think I was being deceptive.

and yes, there are many reasons to prep for disaster.

the issue is whether a Christian with a correct view of the rapture will live differently than a Christian with an incorrect view.

it looks to me like it's wise to do some amount of prepping either way, and to pray at all times and stay on the alert.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Just a reminder:

Galatians 5:[SUP]14 [/SUP]For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[SUP]15 [/SUP]But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.[SUP]16 [/SUP]This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Are you including me in your little 'talk' here? I've just been minding my business, trying to conduct a simple discussion. I haven't bothered anyone, nor insulted anyone, nor anything else.

My goodness -- the shellacking one takes for having a bit of a countercultural stance. All I want to do is have a discussion about this thread's topic. Beaten, bruised and bloodied...I will stagger onwards -- LOL.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

That's what I told my wife.

Suppose my neighbors are starving. I would not withhold my food from them.

So,what's the point of "hunkering down" to a man of God?

So now I'm "ungodly"? -- LOL

Where do you get the idea I plan to withhold food from starving people? Where do you come up with this nonsense? Are you trying to argue it is literally immoral to store food and water?