PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

MattTooFor · Mar 2, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

You haven't quoted one scripture nor cited one single passage in the entire thread. And you're admonishing me to "get Bible"?? The entire thread is about the Bible. I've been discussing the Olivet Discourse, post after post. The hostility coming from this guy -- Mama mia.

MattTooFor · Mar 2, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Dan_473 said:

So now you're going to legitimize my comments? OK. Thanks, I guess.

But you're kind of contradicting the scriptures: Jesus says to attempt escape. We don't just sit there, waiting to be "persecuted". To negate "preparation" and "strategizing" and deem it useless...is the opposite of what is indicated. Jesus says "pray that you may have the strength to escape...". That suggests action...instead of just sitting there waiting to be hauled off to a FEMA death camp.

Jesus also exhorts those who are within arm's length of danger (specifically those who are in Palestine in the moments following the "abomination") to flee like the wind. That same exhortation would seem to apply anytime during the great tribulation when danger is nearing -- that we should be prepared to flee.

I also have to add...I think people are going to be held accountable for brushing aside the utter simplicity and clarity of the Olivet Discourse. All respect but...you seem to be deliberately keeping things 'fuzzy' and inconclusive -- "Oh well, whatever happens, que sera sera".

I would dare say, some day God may be questioning some of these folks:

"Hey people, I gave you the Olivet Discourse. The message was simple as pie. The believers (Peter, James, John, etc) asked me what was going to happen. I told them to look out for the abomination of desolation, followed by the Great Tribulation, and capped off gloriously with my return and the "gathering" of the saints at the time of the cosmic events. Bada-bing bada-boom."

RomansToPhilemon · Mar 2, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Matthew 24 is not talking about the rapture. The people taken are people taken away in judgement! Not taken away in the rapture lol.

[video=youtube;3TGOzqmInP8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TGOzqmInP8[/video]

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Who was taken away in the passage? Who was taken away in judgement? The people taken away were taken away by the flood in JUDGEMENT!

Luke 17.26 -- same thing lol

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

popeye · Mar 3, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

RomansToPhilemon said:

What you are trying to fit in,is the Great White throne judgement. That is where "they all" go to judgement.

1) those taken in mat24 are not taken to judgement. You liberally made they up.

2) half are taken,half are left. ...ok,lets see,where are half taken,and half left? Answr;mat 25,the 10 virgin parable. Btw,they are taken to heaven.

3) those folks are doing every day peacetime activity. And you are trying to fit them into a destroyed earth.

4) the bible says the ac kills every humanoid refusing the mark. So no church is present to be "left behind".

5) you guys used to say the"wicked taken" is God's pattern. Then we took ya'll to school and helped you guys out of that error only to see a few stragglers clinging to what was debunked into obscurity.

....but no,there is no wicked taken untill after the millennium.

Hope this helps.

popeye · Mar 3, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

MattTooFor said:

Lol. I challenge you to stick to the word,and you divert.

Funny

popeye · Mar 3, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

MattTooFor said:

1) the ac kills all refusing the mark. That alone debunks your deal.

2) you guys CONSISTENTLY leave out the bride/groom component.

3) rev 14 has at least 2 gatherings DURING the GT.

4) lot and Noah are both used by Jesus describing the rapture. You guys have no postrib rapture verses. Both Jesus examples are escape,and both are PRE JUDGEMENT.

5)You guys have been consistent in never producing examples of your obscure doctrine. Psssst,you need to show us this post judgement deliverance and immediate return. (y'all's famous meeting horses in sky with uturn back to earth.)

6) you guys are oblivious that you need lot sitting out judgement in Sodom,then AFTER JUDGEMENT,Abe shows up,walks them out,then RETURNS TO SODOM,WITH ABE. You need Noah also delivered post flood.

7) I keep wondering what keeps you guys plugging forward. You have no verses,and your crowning argument of mat 24 is impossible......not even REMOTELY possible

tanakh · Mar 3, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

wsblind said:

Darby may have not started it but he certainly brought it to the attention of the likes of Scofield who spread it. People who never taught it included Martin Luther, John Wesley and Charles Spurgeon who was a contemporary of Darby and criticized his Dispensationalist teachings. Another notable known critic at the time of Darby was Samuel Tregelles a respected Greek Scholar in his day and the author of a book titled The Hope of Christs Second Coming which is still in print. Tregelles was a member of the Plymouth Brethren movement as was Darby. The Plymouth Brethren rejected Darbys teaching so he and others broke away and Darby formed his own group known as the Exclusive Brethren that now exist as a number of different groups that split over Doctrinal differences. The one thing they have in common is the beliefs of John Darby
including the Pre Trib Rapture, which through Scofields Bible and notes has infected other Denominations like a virus.

Dan_473 · Mar 3, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

MattTooFor said:

So now you're going to legitimize my comments? OK. Thanks, I guess.

But you're kind of contradicting the scriptures: Jesus says to attempt escape. We don't just sit there, waiting to be "persecuted". To negate "preparation" and "strategizing" and deem it useless...is the opposite of what is indicated. Jesus says "pray that you may have the strength to escape...". That suggests action...instead of just sitting there waiting to be hauled off to a FEMA death camp.

Jesus also exhorts those who are within arm's length of danger (specifically those who are in Palestine in the moments following the "abomination") to flee like the wind. That same exhortation would seem to apply anytime during the great tribulation when danger is nearing -- that we should be prepared to flee.

I also have to add...I think people are going to be held accountable for brushing aside the utter simplicity and clarity of the Olivet Discourse. All respect but...you seem to be deliberately keeping things 'fuzzy' and inconclusive -- "Oh well, whatever happens, que sera sera".

I would dare say, some day God may be questioning some of these folks:

"Hey people, I gave you the Olivet Discourse. The message was simple as pie. The believers (Peter, James, John, etc) asked me what was going to happen. I told them to look out for the abomination of desolation, followed by the Great Tribulation, and capped off gloriously with my return and the "gathering" of the saints at the time of the cosmic events. Bada-bing bada-boom."

I think the preparation is

LUKE 21:36 Be alert at all times. Pray so that you have the power to escape everything that is about to happen and to stand in front of the Son of Man."

pray, be alert

I think that's good advice for all Christians at all times, especially me.

MattTooFor · Mar 3, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

popeye said:

What understanding do you think the disciples came away with after hearing Jesus' words in the Olivet Discourse? They asked Him about the end times...He told them they needed to live with an expectation of the abomination of desolation...then the Great Tribulation...closed out by the "gathering of the elect".

So, if you were able to pull aside these guys, Peter, James and John...fifteen or twenty years later...and ask them "as the leaders of the Christian movement, do you still believe what you were told you that day? What are your beliefs about the end times? Do you still believe as Jesus told you, to expect to see the "abomination"...or do you now have a contradictory view - a belief in a PreTrib rapture?"

What would their answer have been?

MattTooFor · Mar 3, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Dan_473 said:

Right. You had already said that. So then I added some other thoughts you could comment on, if you so chose. (?)

In other words, would you add "fleeing" to your arsenal of "pray, be alert"? And might you therefore set aside some provisions, in as much as you are capable?

If you notice there is approaching danger, are you simply going to continue to "pray, be alert" or might you hightail it down the road, albeit sans provisions...because, as you've implied previously (in unpleasant fashion, by the way)...to set aside provisions would be 'unspiritual'?

And then I had asked you about whether you intend to remain fuzzy and inconclusive about this ultra-clear, ultra-simple text of the Olivet Discourse. Or are you declining to comment? You quoted back to me what I said but had no comment. Somewhat confusing.

And the advice in Matthew 25 isn't "for all Christians at all times". It has a very specific focus -- the time of Great Tribulation.

Dan_473 · Mar 3, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

MattTooFor said:

I honestly am unable to follow most of what you're saying, there.

I don't think fleeing would be about preparation.

the issue is whether a Christian with a correct view of the rapture will live differently than a Christian with an incorrect view.

I can't see any differences.

Peace be with you.

MattTooFor · Mar 3, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Dan_473 said:

I think you need to take a step back and look at what you have just said. You're claiming there is no adverse effect for having incorrect views of the Bible.

Me-thinks there is a bit of scrambling going on here after you've made some belittling remarks about my prepping. You're more or less arguing that if you're "holy" enough, you won't need pre-arranged provisions. But that is rather nonsensical on the face of it:

If you're going to "flee"...let's say you and your family pile into the car...so now, wouldn't it be nice if you had some provisions set aside -- food, water, maybe some camping gear, possibly a gun for protection, etc.

RomansToPhilemon · Mar 4, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

popeye said:

The 3 verse'd right before in Matthew 24.40 says describes the whole scene for you. Nothing left to the imagination here. Whatever you believe about the 10 virgins is clearly wrong or has nothing to do with the events in Matt 24 and Luke 17 because those verses say Just as it was in the days of Noah...those taken - were taken away to destruction. You can't get around it my friend.

RomansToPhilemon · Mar 4, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

tanakh said:

There were people saying the resurrection had already passed in Paul's day. So any "church fathers" you want to cling to is null and void by the fact that fables have always existed. Just because they believed something, doesn't mean it's correct. And by the way, there were many people who understood the rapture of the body of Christ before the tribulation. As early as 120 AD. But we know there were many before that, because it was revealed to Paul to teach and preach!

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Dan_473 · Mar 4, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

MattTooFor said:

I don't believe I have an incorrect view of they Bible. If you want to talk about that, we could.

I'm not aware of a place in the bible where pre-arranged provisions are talked about as a way of preparing specifically for the great trib, if that's the idea under discussion here.

if we're going to flee somewhere for anyone few days, yes, food, water, gear, weapons are a good idea.

Are you advocating carrying several years worth of provisions and weapons in your car at all times?

I'm not trying to make fun of you, there... just trying to figure out what exactly you're recommending.

MattTooFor · Mar 4, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Dan_473 said:

I think you may be confusing yourself a bit: First you said there is no adverse effect for having incorrect views of the Bible. Then I countered that. But now you're saying you have no incorrect views. Whatever you views may be, that wasn't the issue. The issue is your mistaken notion that incorrect beliefs about the Bible make no difference.

That's the entire topic of this thread. (?) Feel free to weigh in. I would assume you're PreTrib? Knock'em dead.

There's no place in the Bible that talks about whether it's OK to play video games either. I would say you're getting too "spiritual"...too "holy" when it comes to simple, practical common sense.

Well, wait a minute --I wasn't aware there is a place in the Bible which instructs "pre-arranged provisions".

Which of your two views do you hold to? That we shouldn't undertake to set aside provisions...or that we should undertake to set aside provisions?

You're kind of funny. You think if you make an unpleasant, sort of sneering remark and then simply declare you weren't making an unpleasant, sneering remark...you're covered - lol.

In any case, you're apparently making an argument that if you only have a week's or month's worth of "fleeing" provisions, you're maintaining proper 'sanctified' behavior ...but my 6 month's of provisions...well, that's grounds for sarcasm and belittling. I would say you're confused. Just my impression.

Dan_473 · Mar 4, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

MattTooFor said:

did I say say there is no adverse effect for having incorrect views of the Bible? I don't think so, but if I did, what I meant was that a sincere Christian who believes in a pretrib rapture will continue to live the same way if they change to posttrib.

if I understand you right, you're staying that a posttribber will have some provisions set aside for the great trib.

I believe I wrote, 'I don't believe I have an incorrect view of the Bible. If you want to talk about that, we could.' The 'that' is an incorrect view of the Bible. There are loads of things I still have to learn about what the Bible says, so I'm sure I'm wrong about many things. But, I believe my overall view of the Bible is correct.

I don't think the bible says it's wrong to have some amount of provisions set aside for emergencies. But, I'm not aware of a place in the bible where pre-arranged provisions are talked about as a way of preparing specifically for the great trib, if that's the idea under discussion here.

the phrase 'pre-arranged provisions' was used by yourself in your post 232, that's why I used it in reply.

I think it's wise to set aside a small amount of provisions for emergencies, say a few day's worth, but I would think that whether I was pre or post trib (I lean towards pre myself, but I'm not set in stone about it.)

so... you're right that I am confused... I still don't understand what you're advocating, and why...

some provisions stored in a car? or a large amount stored in a remote location?
and the stores are to survive the trib, or some other reason?

I don't believe I've made any unpleasant, sort of sneering remarks. But, if you do, I'd recommend we stop stop conversing, since it doesn't sound like the situation is edifying to you.

popeye · Mar 4, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

RomansToPhilemon said:

Show me one. Be specific. I have demonstrated that tampering with the components departs from the meaning.
Show me where I am wrong.

popeye · Mar 4, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

RomansToPhilemon said:

[FONT=&quot]38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

So,prejudgement (your setting that you inadvertently are presenting) you have half of a group taken,and half left behind.

Noah is a PREJUDGEMENT DIMENSION.

Are you aware that you are using a pretrib dynamic??????

Are you aware that you NEED a POST JUDGEMENT dynamic?????

[/FONT]

MattTooFor · Mar 4, 2017

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Dan_473 said:

Yes. You did. Right here:

---

No, you don't "understand me right".

You're arguing with a phantom. That assertion was never made anywhere.

I only said there might be a suggestion of physical preparation when Jesus exhorts "pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen".

And that was when you stepped in and feigned interest about what provisions I might have and I then extended you the courtesy of giving a bit of a run-down, whereupon you and Popeye began chortling sarcastically back and forth...about taking on the "Antichrist" with a gun, etc.

It's perfectly OK though. That's 'par for the course' for a non-PreTribber living in the mainstream of the Evangelical world which is utterly predominated by a PreTrib juggernaut. 99% of the folks right here at CC are PreTrib. So I get smacked, slapped and bloodied all the time, as has been the case throughout this very thread. When people run out of arguments, they resort to insult.

You, for example, keep coming back to make comments on this thread but NONE of your words so far have weighed in on the actual topic, nor do I expect they will. Again, that's OK. I think it provides further confirmation of the falseness of PreTrib doctrine...and hopefully the small handful of people who look in on this thread will thus have food for thought.

But like I said, the topic of the thread lies before you. Let's start over anytime you like. I extend to you a 'do over' -- LOL! Feel free to weigh in. I have proposed PreTrib unravels on this one point alone...where it fails to uphold "no one knows the day of hour".

If PreTrib insists (as it does) that this described "gathering" in the Olivet Discourse occurs at the exact completion of 1260 days...that is a point-blank false interpretation which, in turn, indicates PreTrib is a point-blank false doctrine.

If you want to return here to have a discussion, I will go in a bit deeper to show how this one error creates a domino effect which causes the PreTrib 'house of cards' to collapse. I will do this in any case, with or without any more comments from anyone...kind of as a set of "closing thoughts" for this thread.

PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

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