probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots
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M
You are partially right. First of all anyone who calls themselves Christian is part of a Heberew sect. At least according to the bible. Hebrew just means you have crossed over. The sojurners who left Egypt with Moses were counted as just as Hebrew as those decended from Jacob. In fact intil no more than a centurt or two ago all you had to do to be Hebrew is say you were and begin living Torah. The whole conversion process thing is new.
Read the book of Ruth to see how far back this goes.
Torah IS not was a form of government. The government of His kingdom. There is no separation of Church and State in his kingdom. And by Daniels example we should keep His rules first.
Read the book of Ruth to see how far back this goes.
Torah IS not was a form of government. The government of His kingdom. There is no separation of Church and State in his kingdom. And by Daniels example we should keep His rules first.
M
LOL. You think you're going to sell us something we haven't already refuted many times over, dontcha? 
I do not know what you have refuted before. I am only stating verses as i have said. And no one has yet used a valid proof text to change my beliefs.
Lets read Ezekiel 33: and you will seewhy i have to state these thinga to you. Not to sell you anything. I can accept no payment. Not for you to join my cult, our only leader is Messiah. But to save my own skin:
Ezekiel 33
1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: note
3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. note
5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; note
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
M
QUOTE=Dan_473;2879607]
Okay lets start with my answering a question you asked before and finishing up with the specific question regarding shovels.
The way I, and most believers I know, start trying to live like Messiah lived and commanded us to live after accepting salvation through His Grace is pretty simple.
First we begin with the Jerusalem council in Acts 15. Here we find the apostles gathered and trying to decide what new believers must do to join their fellowship. Some believed that they would be instantly accountable to the full Torah, some had different ideas. The final decision came down as to what believers must do in order to fellowship with the saints. Let’s start in verse 20.
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Okay, so the REAL church fathers. The very apostles that walked with Messiah, believed and taught that these four laws were required of anyone who wished to fellowship with Messiah's believers. Immediately. If you do not agree with them then I guess you should not quote any of their other writings or you might be guilty of “cherry picking”. And I would be very curious as to why you would discount the apostles own words. It would seem at that point you were leaving the fold and following your own understanding. But it does not end there. Let’s continue in Acts 15.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
So since the early church went to synagogue every Sabbath along with every other Hebrew sect, the apostles knew that new believers would hear and learn the law of The Father as revealed to Moses every Sabbath and begin to live accordingly. I feel I should point out that in the first century, as amply pointed out in scripture and history, all believers in the bible would meet on Sabbath to fulfill the worship and reading requirements of Torah before breaking into smaller dogmatic groups such as the Pharisees on the temple steps and The Masters followers in the upper room.
So the Jerusalem Council concluded with the idea that believers would study and learn Torah. So by this example there would be nothing wrong with believers of today learning our faith every Sabbath in Synagogue. Except that synagogues no longer operate in this manner. They are just as denominational as todays churches. And most are Talmud centered, Midrash heavy, quabbalah influenced places. Not all of course… there are groups of Torah only Jewish groups such as the Karites. And if there were a Karite group near you that were willing to teach someone of another faith Torah, probably much could be learned.
Since most of us do not have this option available to us, we are indeed blessed to be able to individually have access to bibles and concordances so that we can study and show ourselves approved. Or join assemblies that meet biblical standards and learn that way.
We are also blessed that while giving Torah, The Father saw fit to not only give us instruction in how to live his way, but also when these things were applicable. Such predications as “when you are in the land you are going to possess…” or, as in the verse you referenced, “in the camp” lets look.at the verse….
Deuteronomy 23:12 Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad:
13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
So we see that this mentions the camp again, even though it is in a section talking about the camp. Our Father is not the author of confusion and constantly clarifies his words simplifying things.
Let’s see what the word camp means here using a concordance. After all this was written in Hebrew not English.
H4264
Original: מחנה
Transliteration: machăneh
Phonetic: makh-an-eh'
BDB Definition:
encampment, camp
camp, place of encampment
camp of armed host, army camp
those who encamp, company, body of people
Origin: from H2583
TWOT entry: 690c
Part(s) of speech: Noun Masculine
Strong's Definition: From H2583; an encampment (of travellers or troops); hence an army, whether literally (of soldiers) or figuratively (of dancers, angels, cattle, locusts, stars; or even the sacred courts): - army, band, battle, camp, company, drove, host, tents.
So it’s easy to see here that this was originally directed at those wandering in the Exodus with Moses. With future implications on others in camps such as troops, caravans, travelers, shepherds, etc. And this is still observed by these groups to this day.
Which lets us know as well that it does not apply to settlements and cities that have a system of sanitation in place. Unless you believe that back in the day you would often see Hebrew folks running through cities looking scared. Shovel in one hand and the other covering their backside. The Master told us his commands weren’t grievous. His burden was light.
Does this answer?
The way I, and most believers I know, start trying to live like Messiah lived and commanded us to live after accepting salvation through His Grace is pretty simple.
First we begin with the Jerusalem council in Acts 15. Here we find the apostles gathered and trying to decide what new believers must do to join their fellowship. Some believed that they would be instantly accountable to the full Torah, some had different ideas. The final decision came down as to what believers must do in order to fellowship with the saints. Let’s start in verse 20.
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Okay, so the REAL church fathers. The very apostles that walked with Messiah, believed and taught that these four laws were required of anyone who wished to fellowship with Messiah's believers. Immediately. If you do not agree with them then I guess you should not quote any of their other writings or you might be guilty of “cherry picking”. And I would be very curious as to why you would discount the apostles own words. It would seem at that point you were leaving the fold and following your own understanding. But it does not end there. Let’s continue in Acts 15.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
So since the early church went to synagogue every Sabbath along with every other Hebrew sect, the apostles knew that new believers would hear and learn the law of The Father as revealed to Moses every Sabbath and begin to live accordingly. I feel I should point out that in the first century, as amply pointed out in scripture and history, all believers in the bible would meet on Sabbath to fulfill the worship and reading requirements of Torah before breaking into smaller dogmatic groups such as the Pharisees on the temple steps and The Masters followers in the upper room.
So the Jerusalem Council concluded with the idea that believers would study and learn Torah. So by this example there would be nothing wrong with believers of today learning our faith every Sabbath in Synagogue. Except that synagogues no longer operate in this manner. They are just as denominational as todays churches. And most are Talmud centered, Midrash heavy, quabbalah influenced places. Not all of course… there are groups of Torah only Jewish groups such as the Karites. And if there were a Karite group near you that were willing to teach someone of another faith Torah, probably much could be learned.
Since most of us do not have this option available to us, we are indeed blessed to be able to individually have access to bibles and concordances so that we can study and show ourselves approved. Or join assemblies that meet biblical standards and learn that way.
We are also blessed that while giving Torah, The Father saw fit to not only give us instruction in how to live his way, but also when these things were applicable. Such predications as “when you are in the land you are going to possess…” or, as in the verse you referenced, “in the camp” lets look.at the verse….
Deuteronomy 23:12 Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad:
13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
So we see that this mentions the camp again, even though it is in a section talking about the camp. Our Father is not the author of confusion and constantly clarifies his words simplifying things.
Let’s see what the word camp means here using a concordance. After all this was written in Hebrew not English.
H4264
Original: מחנה
Transliteration: machăneh
Phonetic: makh-an-eh'
BDB Definition:
encampment, camp
camp, place of encampment
camp of armed host, army camp
those who encamp, company, body of people
Origin: from H2583
TWOT entry: 690c
Part(s) of speech: Noun Masculine
Strong's Definition: From H2583; an encampment (of travellers or troops); hence an army, whether literally (of soldiers) or figuratively (of dancers, angels, cattle, locusts, stars; or even the sacred courts): - army, band, battle, camp, company, drove, host, tents.
So it’s easy to see here that this was originally directed at those wandering in the Exodus with Moses. With future implications on others in camps such as troops, caravans, travelers, shepherds, etc. And this is still observed by these groups to this day.
Which lets us know as well that it does not apply to settlements and cities that have a system of sanitation in place. Unless you believe that back in the day you would often see Hebrew folks running through cities looking scared. Shovel in one hand and the other covering their backside.
The Master told us his commands weren’t grievous. His burden was light.Does this answer?
M
Exactly! I like the way he said it in Romans as well
Romans8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Knowing that sin is violation of the law from definitions all over Romans and also 1 John 3:4. We know that those who recieve the spirit are no longer law breakers beacause the Holy Spirit in their hearts keeps them from law breaking as light and darkness do not mix. See also Jerimiah 31 aand Hebrews 8. We seem to be finding common ground.
Romans8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Knowing that sin is violation of the law from definitions all over Romans and also 1 John 3:4. We know that those who recieve the spirit are no longer law breakers beacause the Holy Spirit in their hearts keeps them from law breaking as light and darkness do not mix. See also Jerimiah 31 aand Hebrews 8. We seem to be finding common ground.
I find this thread interesting. Especially “Jewish” interpretations…. The New Testament is written by Jews, except for Luke, and it is interpretations of Torah, in the light of Messiah. So, what is your interpretations of the Scripture?
We know Torah Law can be broken up into 3 parts, for lack of a better term, Moral Law, which will stand forever or until at least Messiah returns and is completely fulfilled in the new Kingdom. The mechanism of fulfilling or being able to keep the Law… the Ritual Law which was fulfilled by Y-shua (no man can fulfill) and will be completely fulfilled when He returns because we live in the here and the now and the not yet… we are satisfied, being sanctified, and we’ll be 100% sanctified in the new Kingdom… no more sin). Then there is the Law for us Jews only that separates us as Jews… non-Jews can choose to circumcise their son’s but it will never make you a Jew and that’s what to “Judaize” is the true definition per G-d’s word…
Which Laws does this Hebrew Roots think should be kept?
We know Torah Law can be broken up into 3 parts, for lack of a better term, Moral Law, which will stand forever or until at least Messiah returns and is completely fulfilled in the new Kingdom. The mechanism of fulfilling or being able to keep the Law… the Ritual Law which was fulfilled by Y-shua (no man can fulfill) and will be completely fulfilled when He returns because we live in the here and the now and the not yet… we are satisfied, being sanctified, and we’ll be 100% sanctified in the new Kingdom… no more sin). Then there is the Law for us Jews only that separates us as Jews… non-Jews can choose to circumcise their son’s but it will never make you a Jew and that’s what to “Judaize” is the true definition per G-d’s word…
Which Laws does this Hebrew Roots think should be kept?
Okay lets start with my answering a question you asked before and finishing up with the specific question regarding shovels.
The way I, and most believers I know, start trying to live like Messiah lived and commanded us to live after accepting salvation through His Grace is pretty simple.
First we begin with the Jerusalem council in Acts 15. Here we find the apostles gathered and trying to decide what new believers must do to join their fellowship. Some believed that they would be instantly accountable to the full Torah, some had different ideas. The final decision came down as to what believers must do in order to fellowship with the saints. Let’s start in verse 20.
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Okay, so the REAL church fathers. The very apostles that walked with Messiah, believed and taught that these four laws were required of anyone who wished to fellowship with Messiah's believers. Immediately. If you do not agree with them then I guess you should not quote any of their other writings or you might be guilty of “cherry picking”. And I would be very curious as to why you would discount the apostles own words. It would seem at that point you were leaving the fold and following your own understanding. But it does not end there. Let’s continue in Acts 15.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
So since the early church went to synagogue every Sabbath along with every other Hebrew sect, the apostles knew that new believers would hear and learn the law of The Father as revealed to Moses every Sabbath and begin to live accordingly. I feel I should point out that in the first century, as amply pointed out in scripture and history, all believers in the bible would meet on Sabbath to fulfill the worship and reading requirements of Torah before breaking into smaller dogmatic groups such as the Pharisees on the temple steps and The Masters followers in the upper room.
So the Jerusalem Council concluded with the idea that believers would study and learn Torah. So by this example there would be nothing wrong with believers of today learning our faith every Sabbath in Synagogue. Except that synagogues no longer operate in this manner. They are just as denominational as todays churches. And most are Talmud centered, Midrash heavy, quabbalah influenced places. Not all of course… there are groups of Torah only Jewish groups such as the Karites. And if there were a Karite group near you that were willing to teach someone of another faith Torah, probably much could be learned.
Since most of us do not have this option available to us, we are indeed blessed to be able to individually have access to bibles and concordances so that we can study and show ourselves approved. Or join assemblies that meet biblical standards and learn that way.
We are also blessed that while giving Torah, The Father saw fit to not only give us instruction in how to live his way, but also when these things were applicable. Such predications as “when you are in the land you are going to possess…” or, as in the verse you referenced, “in the camp” lets look.at the verse….
Deuteronomy 23:12 Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad:
13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
So we see that this mentions the camp again, even though it is in a section talking about the camp. Our Father is not the author of confusion and constantly clarifies his words simplifying things.
Let’s see what the word camp means here using a concordance. After all this was written in Hebrew not English.
H4264
Original: מחנה
Transliteration: machăneh
Phonetic: makh-an-eh'
BDB Definition:
encampment, camp
camp, place of encampment
camp of armed host, army camp
those who encamp, company, body of people
Origin: from H2583
TWOT entry: 690c
Part(s) of speech: Noun Masculine
Strong's Definition: From H2583; an encampment (of travellers or troops); hence an army, whether literally (of soldiers) or figuratively (of dancers, angels, cattle, locusts, stars; or even the sacred courts): - army, band, battle, camp, company, drove, host, tents.
So it’s easy to see here that this was originally directed at those wandering in the Exodus with Moses. With future implications on others in camps such as troops, caravans, travelers, shepherds, etc. And this is still observed by these groups to this day.
Which lets us know as well that it does not apply to settlements and cities that have a system of sanitation in place. Unless you believe that back in the day you would often see Hebrew folks running through cities looking scared. Shovel in one hand and the other covering their backside. The Master told us his commands weren’t grievous. His burden was light.
Does this answer?
The way I, and most believers I know, start trying to live like Messiah lived and commanded us to live after accepting salvation through His Grace is pretty simple.
First we begin with the Jerusalem council in Acts 15. Here we find the apostles gathered and trying to decide what new believers must do to join their fellowship. Some believed that they would be instantly accountable to the full Torah, some had different ideas. The final decision came down as to what believers must do in order to fellowship with the saints. Let’s start in verse 20.
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Okay, so the REAL church fathers. The very apostles that walked with Messiah, believed and taught that these four laws were required of anyone who wished to fellowship with Messiah's believers. Immediately. If you do not agree with them then I guess you should not quote any of their other writings or you might be guilty of “cherry picking”. And I would be very curious as to why you would discount the apostles own words. It would seem at that point you were leaving the fold and following your own understanding. But it does not end there. Let’s continue in Acts 15.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
So since the early church went to synagogue every Sabbath along with every other Hebrew sect, the apostles knew that new believers would hear and learn the law of The Father as revealed to Moses every Sabbath and begin to live accordingly. I feel I should point out that in the first century, as amply pointed out in scripture and history, all believers in the bible would meet on Sabbath to fulfill the worship and reading requirements of Torah before breaking into smaller dogmatic groups such as the Pharisees on the temple steps and The Masters followers in the upper room.
So the Jerusalem Council concluded with the idea that believers would study and learn Torah. So by this example there would be nothing wrong with believers of today learning our faith every Sabbath in Synagogue. Except that synagogues no longer operate in this manner. They are just as denominational as todays churches. And most are Talmud centered, Midrash heavy, quabbalah influenced places. Not all of course… there are groups of Torah only Jewish groups such as the Karites. And if there were a Karite group near you that were willing to teach someone of another faith Torah, probably much could be learned.
Since most of us do not have this option available to us, we are indeed blessed to be able to individually have access to bibles and concordances so that we can study and show ourselves approved. Or join assemblies that meet biblical standards and learn that way.
We are also blessed that while giving Torah, The Father saw fit to not only give us instruction in how to live his way, but also when these things were applicable. Such predications as “when you are in the land you are going to possess…” or, as in the verse you referenced, “in the camp” lets look.at the verse….
Deuteronomy 23:12 Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad:
13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
So we see that this mentions the camp again, even though it is in a section talking about the camp. Our Father is not the author of confusion and constantly clarifies his words simplifying things.
Let’s see what the word camp means here using a concordance. After all this was written in Hebrew not English.
H4264
Original: מחנה
Transliteration: machăneh
Phonetic: makh-an-eh'
BDB Definition:
encampment, camp
camp, place of encampment
camp of armed host, army camp
those who encamp, company, body of people
Origin: from H2583
TWOT entry: 690c
Part(s) of speech: Noun Masculine
Strong's Definition: From H2583; an encampment (of travellers or troops); hence an army, whether literally (of soldiers) or figuratively (of dancers, angels, cattle, locusts, stars; or even the sacred courts): - army, band, battle, camp, company, drove, host, tents.
So it’s easy to see here that this was originally directed at those wandering in the Exodus with Moses. With future implications on others in camps such as troops, caravans, travelers, shepherds, etc. And this is still observed by these groups to this day.
Which lets us know as well that it does not apply to settlements and cities that have a system of sanitation in place. Unless you believe that back in the day you would often see Hebrew folks running through cities looking scared. Shovel in one hand and the other covering their backside.
The Master told us his commands weren’t grievous. His burden was light.Does this answer?
if a roots person is in the army, then must they go outside the camp and not use the latrines inside the perimeter?