Response to Critique of Calvinism

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tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#201
Oct 13, 2011
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274
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#201
eternally-gratefull said:
nope, did not miss anything.

God created man, both sons were totally underserving.. the man offered the gift to one son, and did not even offer it to the other.. neither deserved it, so either neither should have been offered it, or they both should have been offered it. anything else would make the father an unfair, unloving and unjust father.

you see the fair thing woul dhave been offering both sons the gift. it does not mean both would recieve.

One may repent and admit he did all those wrong things to his father and does not deserve it. but thanks him anyway, The other may not repent and say I don;t care what you have, I hate you, and I do not want anything you have to offer. I am better off on my own, because I know what is right for me.

in this senario, the father is righteous, and just and loving. The one who recieved it, did nto earn it, he just trusted his father. the other rejected his fathers gift (even though it was an amasing offer no one should turn down) due to the hate he had for his father
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What is this? If the father had the power to do give the best to both his sons then he will do so. He won't jeopardize their wellbeing.
 
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tdrew777

Guest
#202
#202
God does not treat all of his creation as sons. That hard reality has nothing to do with eternal planning. God is just as responsible for hell if He predestined people to it, or if they surprise Him by going there. Constructing theological systems that do away with/explain away what scripture reveals about God's eternal planning of history does nothing to soften the reality of people in hell.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#203
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#203
tdrew777 said:
God does not treat all of his creation as sons. That hard reality has nothing to do with eternal planning. God is just as responsible for hell if He predestined people to it, or if they surprise Him by going there. Constructing theological systems that do away with/explain away what scripture reveals about God's eternal planning of history does nothing to soften the reality of people in hell.
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Sin got man into real trouble. There's nothing loveable with a sinner. He is not to be loved for what he is.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#204
#204
The teaching of limited atonement whether it be true or not stands on the concept
that regeneration precedes faith and repentance which is unbiblical.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#205
#205
tribesman said:
What is this? If the father had the power to do give the best to both his sons then he will do so. He won't jeopardize their wellbeing.
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lol.. But a loving father would not force his will on anyone, he would offer both out of love, and be saddened at the one who did not take.. but let him go away..

You think it is loving to force your will on someone and make them take something they do not want?
 
T

tdrew777

Guest
#206
#206
Atonement is sufficient for everyone. It is limited in that it is only effective for some, for those who believe. Limited atonement does not mean lack of sufficiency, but lack of application. The elect were elected before the foundation of the world. Jesus was sent on a mission from the father - to redeem the elect. The atonement has special reference to the elect. It is like a man whose family is on a sinking ship. He rents a rescue boat big enough for everyone, but only his family believe that the first boat is sinking. He went to save his family. There was special reference to his family. His work was sufficient for all, but limited, effective only for few.

If saving faith is a gift of God, it happens as a result of regeneration. If faith is a good work of man it precedes and causes regeneration. You tell me - which does the scripture teach?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#207
#207
tdrew777 said:
God does not treat all of his creation as sons. That hard reality has nothing to do with eternal planning. God is just as responsible for hell if He predestined people to it, or if they surprise Him by going there. Constructing theological systems that do away with/explain away what scripture reveals about God's eternal planning of history does nothing to soften the reality of people in hell.
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yeah bit scripture states hell was not even made for man, it was made for satan and his groupies.

God did not desire any of his creation on earth to go to hell, but all would come to repentance..It is not his fault people darkened their eyes to truth because they thought they knew better than God.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#208
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
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#208
eternally-gratefull said:
Because there can be no regeneration before justification.
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Justification is the cause of regeneration, just as sin is the cause of death. "While we were still dead in sins, He quickened us" (Eph 2:5).

and as for Gods grace being resisted, People do it all the time. Isreal did it for hundreds of years. As Jesus said, He wanted to take them as a mother hen takes her children, but they were not willing. they resisted his will and his grace.
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Agreed. But I was talking of salvific grace. Once taken up it cannot be frustrated.
[h=3]2Cor.12[/h][9] And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
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tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#209
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
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#209
eternally-gratefull said:
lol.. But a loving father would not force his will on anyone, he would offer both out of love, and be saddened at the one who did not take.. but let him go away..

You think it is loving to force your will on someone and make them take something they do not want?
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Force? Bah. Sometimes the children know not their own best...if they are in deadly danger dad will snatch them out of the fires whether they want or understand it or not. It's that simple, bro.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#210
#210
tribesman said:
Sin got man into real trouble. There's nothing loveable with a sinner. He is not to be loved for what he is.
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lol, so you dad did not love you? maybe that explains it
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#211
#211
tribesman said:
Justification is the cause of regeneration, just as sin is the cause of death. "While we were still dead in sins, He quickened us" (Eph 2:5).
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Exactly, which is why justification must precede regeneration. and justification is only by faith. which means faith precedes them all



Agreed. But I was talking of salvific grace. Once taken up it cannot be frustrated.
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lol.. Thats because it is eternal. not based on our deeds.. I am talking about resisting it in order to be saved,, people do it all the time. in all areas
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#212
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
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#212
tdrew777 said:
... Jesus was sent on a mission from the father - to redeem the elect. The atonement has special reference to the elect. It is like a man whose family is on a sinking ship. He rents a rescue boat big enough for everyone, but only his family believe that the first boat is sinking. He went to save his family. There was special reference to his family. His work was sufficient for all, but limited, effective only for few.
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Exactly, God has only promised to save His people, who are in the covenant of promise.
 
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tdrew777

Guest
#213
#213
eternally-gratefull said:
yeah bit scripture states hell was not even made for man, it was made for satan and his groupies.

God did not desire any of his creation on earth to go to hell, but all would come to repentance..It is not his fault people darkened their eyes to truth because they thought they knew better than God.
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Agreed.
Hell was designed for fallen angels; men who enter are in a place they were not designed for. It is not God's desire that anyone go. It is not a fault of God that some go to hell. I would add that it is part of God's eternal plan that some will go; that is not a fault. If some ended up there by accident because God forgot to put the lid on, THAT would have been a fault.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#214
#214
tribesman said:
Force? Bah. Sometimes the children know not their own best...if they are in deadly danger dad will snatch them out of the fires whether they want or understand it or not. It's that simple, bro.
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I agree.

But it does not mean dad did not offer it to them., and they freely rejected it.. which is what we are discussing.

 
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Abiding

Guest
#215
#215
2 Peter 3:9 [h=2]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/h]

Lets watch the slight of hand on this one:p
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#216
#216
tdrew777 said:
Agreed.
Hell was designed for fallen angels; men who enter are in a place they were not designed for. It is not God's desire that anyone go. It is not a fault of God that some go to hell. I would add that it is part of God's eternal plan that some will go; that is not a fault. If some ended up there by accident because God forgot to put the lid on, THAT would have been a fault.
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True, thus begs the question.

Did God create so and so predestined to hell, and not give him the opportunity and ability to chose life instead of death..
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#217
#217
We dont know all the mysteries. Jesus made that clear. Even the angels
scratch their heads watching.

The trouble is when we force answers from the bible. Especially when they
are NOT given and we misrepresent God and dishonor Him in the doing.
Which is one reason for some of the contention in theological circles.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#218
Oct 13, 2011
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#218
eternally-gratefull said:
Exactly, which is why justification must precede regeneration. and justification is only by faith. which means faith precedes them all
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Why MUST? I'd say they go hand in hand. It's the new man which experiences justification however.

lol.. Thats because it is eternal. not based on our deeds.. I am talking about resisting it in order to be saved,, people do it all the time. in all areas
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LOL. Sure they do! Have I denied that? They can resist for all they like...that ability they have. But they cannot receive before God works in them "to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil.2.13).
 
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tdrew777

Guest
#219
#219
eternally-gratefull said:
True, thus begs the question.

Did God create so and so predestined to hell, and not give him the opportunity and ability to chose life instead of death..
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God created all time as one piece, the beginning AND the end. He views all time as one piece. He is the great "I Am" simultaneously present at every moment in time. What happens at the happens according to the plan at the beginning. Nothing, not even the landing of a sparrow, happens not according to the eternal plan. In that plan "opportunity and ability to choose life instead of death" is given to everyone. He planned free wills, not robots. God's good planning in no way mitigates against human free will; that is a false dichotomy. God's eternal planning is what ESTABLISHES human free will. Judas had every opportunity NOT to betray Jesus. But it was according to God's eternal plan, (and against God's ethical will), that Judas does execute his own corrupt moral choice to betray Jesus.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#220
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
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#220
eternally-gratefull said:
I agree.

But it does not mean dad did not offer it to them., and they freely rejected it.. which is what we are discussing.
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Would be splitting of hairs here...I am less sure of the "offer" thing...call it force then or whatever you like, its about rescuing one's heritage. So if the kids are in the fires and they don't know the first thing about it and are not willing or able to get out of the deadly danger and dad sees it and have the power to save them out of that danger - then he'll do that. That's all we need to know IMO.

We're repeating ourselves...lol.
 
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