So post your points of how the gifts have ended

[peacefulbeliever]

i said:

is scripture complete and sufficient

NOT

is "The scripture inspired"

i'll rephrase it:

is Scripture inspired; infallible; complete and sufficient?

or even better:

according to GOD is Scripture inspired; infallible; complete and sufficient?

(please don't use the canon canard - already dealt with).

i asked: is scripture complete (téleios) and sufficient?

téleios
Thayer's Definition
brought to its end, finished
wanting nothing necessary to completeness
perfect
that which is perfect
consummate human integrity and virtue
of men
full grown, adult, of full age, mature

1 Corinthians 13:10
"but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

téleios
Thayer's Definition
brought to its end, finished
wanting nothing necessary to completeness
perfect
that which is perfect
consummate human integrity and virtue
of men
full grown, adult, of full age, mature

We can't see scripture "face to face".

If interested: Thayer's Lexicon notes for 1 Corinthians 13:10 (Free Bible Tools - Strong's Concordance With Greek & Hebrew! BlueLetterBible) - the perfect state of all things to be ushered in by the return of Christ

 

[1still_waters]

I believe it to be general knowledge that one hears the voice of God on the inside of them without any physical sensations, as you reported. I can't recall anyone saying "I think they heard God say.." or 'I get the impression..." Psychics might say that but not charismatics.

I have heard God speak to me several times and it is often amazing as He always seem to say something apt but unexpected. Each time I heard his voice it was without any physical sensation, but I will admit that it did cause me to react emotionally, sometimes with tears, sometimes with awe, once with sadness, sometimes with peace.

Thanks...........

 

[watcher2013]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
see Hebrews chapter


Hb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hb 5:13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The first principles of the oracle of God is considered to be milk, its like ABC. when it is time for u to be teachers why u want to learn ABC. Its like having milk instead of having strong meat.

Paul has given only milk to Corinthians, not strong meat

1C 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

This verse is from 1Corintians



For we see, as yet, through a dim window, obscurely, but, then, face to face: as yet, I gain knowledge, in part, but, then, shall I fully know, even as I was also fully known - Rotherhams expanded bible

We shall see face to face doesnt mean we will see Jesus' face. Once u start getting the spiritual meat ( not the milk) the veil from the heart will be taken away. We become mature in Christ. It will be like seeing him face to face, till we acquire that knowledge its like seeing him thru a dim window.

let me clarify this.
1. That which "perfect" is come.
(we are being made perfect heb5:9) and during the process, the prophesying does not vanished away, the knowledge was not done away, in fact its the opposite, as we are being made perfect, the knowledge increases even prophesying, the boldness to preach.

2. Face to face
[1Co 13:12] KJV For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Paul was referring to the timing "for now" , please note that including Paul "we see.. " but then ( talking about somewhere in the future) face to face... Paul said that " I know in part" for me paul was admittedly saying, what he know is part only, but then face to face.

Would it make sense paul was referring to the changing of mortal bodies to perfect immortal bodies., and when that time comes (the preaching, the prophesying, etc, will be done away, and then Face to Face...

 

[RickShafer]

Yea, we can't behold scripture face to face.
We can study it.
But if we knew as we are known by reading scripture there would be no more reason for faith or hope.
- Also there would be no more conjecture about it.
The answer seems perfectly obvious.

I can see why those that say the perfect has come in the form of scripture, rail - "Why can't you see it?!"
This leads to abusive commentary. - - - "Why don't you know?!"

 

[Abiding]

Rick is your neck really that cold?

 

[unclefester]

The Holy Spirit is repeatedly referred to in gender neutral terms.....Yet Jesus called Him a "He". - John 16:13.
Now, since the Holy Spirit had already come, what is "that which is perfect" that Paul refers to in I Corinthians 13?

The Scriptures Tell Us That The Revelatory Gifts Have Ceased​

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. - 1 Corinthians 13:8-13​

It is clear from this passage that tongues, prophecy, and words of knowledge will cease. The main issue is when they will cease. It is interesting to note that these three gifts are specifically called out as being temporary, in contrast to faith, hope and love. Why? I believe it is because they are revelatory.


Verse 10 tells us exactly when these gifts will cease, namely "when that which is perfect has come". The Greek word telios (perfect) means "brought to its end, finished; lacking nothing necessary to completeness; perfect" according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and "having reached its end, finished, complete" according to the Liddell & Scott Greek lexicon. In other words, when the finishing of something has come, these gifts will cease. Here are some common interpretations of the word "perfect" (telios) in 1 Cor. 13:10.

1. maturity attained in our glorified state. This mixes metaphors (explained below).
2. the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. However, Christ is never described in the neuter gender. This also mixes metaphors (explained below).
3. the completion of the canon.

I believe the 3rd interpretation is correct for the following reasons. Firstly, this interpretation better explains how prophecy, tongues and words of new knowledge are incomplete (see "For we know in part and we prophecy in part" in verse 9). They are incomplete because, at that period in history, God had not completed them. Secondly, the third interpretation fits perfectly with the two metaphors that Paul uses to explain how the church's knowledge will become complete. The two metaphors that Paul uses to explain the contrast between knowing or prophesying in part and complete knowledge are as follows:

1. knowledge of a child vs. knowledge of a man
2. seeing through a dim mirror vs. seeing face to face

It can not be emphasized enough that these metaphors must be taken as metaphors. The first mistake people make in this passage is to interpret the "face to face" as the 2nd coming of Christ. This would be mixing the metaphor ("seeing in a mirror") with something real (seeing Jesus Christ at His 2nd coming). Paul would never mix a metaphor with reality. If the first part is metaphorical (seeing in a mirror) so must the 2nd part (seeing face to face). Paul is telling us that the completion of the canon will be like looking at someone face to face, compared to looking through the dim reflection of a 1st century mirror.

Cessationism Defended - RealGospel.org

​

 

[RickShafer]

My neck?
I fight for the truth.
What else?
All I want is an explanation of when, why, and how the gifts ended. (In scripture)
- - Is that so wrong?

 

[Abiding]

My neck?
I fight for the truth.
What else?
All I want is an explanation of when, why, and how the gifts ended. (In scripture)
- - Is that so wrong?

Nope!! not wrong at all....the neck thingy...was said after studying your avatar.
I fight for info.
what else?
i just wanted to know if your neck is really that cold
-- is that so wrong?

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Matthew 23:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Please read.......was it that Zacharias that was slain between the the temple and the altar?

- - No!

Jesus never said this. Yet you will find this in all of the translations.
Why? Because the translators are just translating what was written.
Jesus was obviously referring to the writer of the book of Zachariah.
But a very early copyist made a mistake.
So don't tell me the Canon is "that which is perfect".

jesus definitely -did- say this...so we can deduce that the author of zechariah was murdered between the temple and the altar...jesus knew it even if it wasn't recorded in the old testament...

 

[RickShafer]

Here we go again, to see in a mirror is to see a reflection. When we see face to face that is in person.
Reflection - mirror - Faith and Hope
Face to face - Charity(Love) - for God is love.
Now, - "for when I was a child I spake as a child" - when? At what time was the writer of half the books of the new testament a child? Before he was saved or after? The cessationist must claim that Paul is perfect, and beholding the truth face to face. Yet Paul says - "for NOW we see through a glass darkly, but THEN face to face."
- (He goes on...."NOW I know in part; (this is the writer of 13 epistles speaking), but THEN shall I know even as I am known."
- - - "And NOW abideth faith, hope and charity, but the greatest of these is charity".
Then He says - (the writer of half of the books of the New Testament); Follow after charity, AND DESIRE SPIRITUAL GIFTS, BUT RATHER THAT YE SHOULD PROPHECY." (And He goes on to speak of the necessity of the gift of prophecy for the Corinthian church).
The time frame and the present and future tenses are very clear, so that no one can misunderstand it.

 

[RickShafer]

Nope!! not wrong at all....the neck thingy...was said after studying your avatar.
I fight for info.
what else?
i just wanted to know if your neck is really that cold
-- is that so wrong?

Haaaaa! I never noticed it, I guess Calvin was cold. (I got to get a laptop computer so ya'll can see my ugly puss.)

 

[RickShafer]

I've got to check out.
I'm utterly exhausted in the brain.
Good night, and God bless.

 

[GreenNnice]

The verse in 1 Corinthinans 13, that definitely is not metaphorical in any way, shape, or, form, and, definitively, throws an axe in the 'cessationism defended.org' article.

"Now I know in part but then shall I know even as I am known.'


There is nothing metaphorical about this verse whatsoever, as I say above, the verse says that we are only knowing Jesus in part, in this case, that 'part' would be faith in Him, hope in Him, Love in Him, but ONE DAY we will KNOW Him face to face, no more need for hope, faith, Love of Jesus, for we will no longer JUST have Him in our minds' eye, we will be seeing Him face to face, knowing Him just like He knows us, we will SEE Jesus face to face when we get to heaven or Rapture (depending on what you believe).

 

[damombomb]

God chooses people to still do his will, so why would the gifts have stopped

 

[onlinebuddy]

I have never once heard anyone say that you need a sensation to read/interpret the bible like this before...not one time. Is this a strawman or do you know of real cases where this has happened?

I have seen people shaking and jerking uncontrollably, sometimes with tears rolling down. Can you pls explain this?

 

[MidniteWelder]

I have seen people shaking and jerking uncontrollably, sometimes with tears rolling down. Can you pls explain this?

They were cold?
and very upset about the fact that they were cold??

 

[Abiding]

i have a view but noone wants to hear it so
have a muffin

 

[onlinebuddy]

You've NEVER heard someone who claims the gift of "prophecy" say that they know it's the Holy Spirit because of some feeling that comes over them? Really?

I've seen them place their hands somewhere around the solar plexus as they pray and prophecy. The scripture reference they use is :
Hethat believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (Jn 7:38, KJV)

 

[onlinebuddy]

I believe it to be general knowledge that one hears the voice of God on the inside of them without any physical sensations, as you reported. I can't recall anyone saying "I think they heard God say.." or 'I get the impression..." Psychics might say that but not charismatics.

I have heard God speak to me several times and it is often amazing as He always seem to say something apt but unexpected. Each time I heard his voice it was without any physical sensation, but I will admit that it did cause me to react emotionally, sometimes with tears, sometimes with awe, once with sadness, sometimes with peace.

I do believe that your experience is genuine, because I do believe that the Holy Spirit is at work on earth in this age.
Do you believe that God interacts with EVERY believer in this way?
If a believer hasn't had any such experience/ interaction, in your opinion, does he or she lack something?
How would you react to a TV evangelist saying, "God told me to collect a million dollars." or something to that effect?

 

[onlinebuddy]

Sorry! I point to truth.
(What do you want?)
If you believe that we no longer see through a glass darkly then you are mistaken.
- If we know as we are known there would not be thousands of denominations, and divergent views.
- - Sorry to have to break it to you.

IDK about whether the glass is on or removed. I need to study this in detail.
However, you are saying that denominations are the result of the our unclear vision due to the glass. Isn't this what you are saying? So what you are actually saying is that denominations are the work of God, since he hasn't brought on the perfection (face to face).

Isn't it clear that denominations are the work of man?
One of the reason we have denominations is that believers got conceited and turned into philosophers. They thus complicated the scriptures. Then they gathered people around them and (with good intentions) convinced them to wear their spectacles, and claimed that the Bible cannot be understood without these spectacles. Those who wore those spectacles came to be known as a denomination. Once a denomination was born, the "holier than thou" attitude was born. Divisions were created. Satan is the author of divisions.