So post your points of how the gifts have ended

[Sanashankar]

Once again, for those that hold that the canon is that perfect which will come in I Cor.13.

The Holy Spirit is repeatedly referred to in gender neutral terms.....Yet Jesus called Him a "He". - John 16:13.
Now, since the Holy Spirit had already come, what is "that which is perfect" that Paul refers to in I Corinthians 13?

- The Canon?
Matthew 23:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Please read.......was it that Zacharias that was slain between the the temple and the altar?

- - No!

Jesus never said this. Yet you will find this in all of the translations.
Why? Because the translators are just translating what was written.
Jesus was obviously referring to the writer of the book of Zachariah.
But a very early copyist made a mistake.
So is it the Canon which is the subject of: "that which is perfect".


​

Holy spirit is called "he" but it could also be shown from hundreds of biblical verses (both Old and New Testaments) that many things animate and inanimate are given genders in the Bible though they are not personalities at all.

She [is] more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her (Pr 3:15). Wisdom personified.

"If the foot shall say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body.... And if the ear shall say, because I am not of the body" (I Cor. 12:15,16). Of course, feet and ears do not actually have mouths to speak. They are simply personified by Paul in an allegorical sense.

"Let the heaven rejoice, and let the earth be glad. …let the field be joyful . . then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice" (Psa. 96:11,12). But really, the heavens have no actual mouth with which to express joy; the earth has no faculty of its own to be glad; the fields of grass cannot actually show joyfulness; nor can trees of the forest demonstrate a happiness as a human can

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)Sin personified

These are simple figures of speech.The same thing applies to teachings about the Holy Spirit. Simply because the Holy Spirit is given a masculine gender in its pronouns in a few scriptures and with attributes of being able to speak, no one could legitimately insist that these verses prove the personality of the Spirit. True, they provide evidence in favor of the proposition, but with a host of other scriptures giving the same "personalities" to hands, ears, trees, hills, mountains, the earth, heaven (and many other inanimate things), it is precarious business to demand the personality of the Spirit from a few verses which do the same thing with other objects. Indeed, even today it is common for us to refer to ships of the sea in the feminine gender, but none of us really thinks of them as being real women. The Holy Spirit - A Person or Power?

 

[presidente]

Sanashankar,

Do you know that God's name is not Jehovah?

 

[MidniteWelder]

Anyone remember that woman who had an issue with blood for 12 years?
When the woman with the issue believed that if she but touched the HEM of his garment she would be whole ?
Jesus "FELT" that virtue had left him.
30And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes? 31And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? 32And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
33But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.

Jesus didn't even SEE who touched his clothes, he FELT something and noticed that virtue had went out of him.
As did the woman feel something within her ...knowing she had been made whole again.
What virtue went out of him and into the woman?
The virtue of faith?
The woman already had the faith of a mustard seed as we are told she "believed" in Jesus simply from hearing about him.
Was it the virtue of knowledge? She already knew she would be made whole, did Jesus have to have knowledge leave him and go into her?
Or was it the virtue of all things that are Godly and pure which are of the Holy Spirit.

----From reading this one account alone, is it unreasonable to conceive that something is felt and has happened within them when the holy spirit makes them whole again through the virtue of Christ,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness

It's a divine power directly of the Lord, not the power of any man.
Man cannot comprehend the things of God.
And so Jesus said no one come to the father but by me.
Sometimes I wonder of people interpret that as
"in order to get to God you gotta get by me first"
What could he mean instead then, that no one comes to the father but by me.

Does he mean Christ "the man"? as if a man of human flesh resides in heaven?
No...
What could Jesus be talking about then except for Gods word.
We come to the father(Come to know him) by his word.

Not just the words Christ spoke in the short time he was (GODS WORD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH)
But all his word, since the beginning. (In the beginning was the word...everybody remember that)
His word allows us to become closer to him. That's a great gift in itself right there.

In order to be saved one must accept Christ as our Lord and savior ...we know this.
So you're save, and its a wonderful gift whereupon the Angels in heaven rejoice.
Is that all then, mission accomplished?
Ha No...that's just the beginning...there is so much more to God.
There is so much more than
Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself
But some people like it simple because some people like to remain for lack of a better word, stupid

Keep it simple for stupid, K.I.S.S (Hey! what a great and contradictory to God kind of motto to live by)
Proverbs 1:22
"How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?
That's the worlds worldly Motto many Christians have conveniently adopted for some reason as if it were Gods word.
News flash, the Devil does things opposite of God
God has bigger plans and he actually mocks those who wish to remain simple in their simple ways.
Or those who wish to remain complacent, comfortable, content where they're at.
That's not growth
But hey we all gotta start somewhere right.
So there are some who accept Christ and think
"I'm saved and all I gotta do is sit back in my rocking chair now and wait for Jesus to come back."
Fine ...they're not doing anything wrong, but at the same time that's the very same as the servant God gave one talent to to see what they would do with it and they went and buried it until their master called upon them.
SEEEEEE I still have that one talent you gave me.
Thumbs up!!! YEAHHHHH Its still right here in my pocket.
I still got the knowledge that I accepted your Gift
Anytime you ask I will surely say I accepted you as my Lord and savior, (but did nothing else)
Didn't witness your power and glory
Didnt offer charity to those in need because hey, they know where to go if they need something.
Didn't offer further knowledge to get to know you better
Didn't speak for you in your name
and in fact discouraged others from getting to know you better because all one has to do to be saved is:
Accept you as their Lord and savior so why complicate things when that's all anyone has to do to get to heaven.
But is this really loving the Lord your God with all your heart mind body and soul?
(anyone ever notice the bibles focus isn't exactly a book of how to get to heaven)
Its a book of how to Love the Lord your God with all your mind heart body and soul with several accounts and examples how to do that as well as
WHAT NOT TO DO.


So...within getting to know him better
Within utilizing his word, and getting closer to him we are told
As wellllllllllll ....furthermorrrrre

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[watcher2013]

The Scriptures Tell Us That The Revelatory Gifts Have Ceased​

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. - 1 Corinthians 13:8-13​

It is clear from this passage that tongues, prophecy, and words of knowledge will cease. The main issue is when they will cease. It is interesting to note that these three gifts are specifically called out as being temporary, in contrast to faith, hope and love. Why? I believe it is because they are revelatory.


Verse 10 tells us exactly when these gifts will cease, namely "when that which is perfect has come". The Greek word telios (perfect) means "brought to its end, finished; lacking nothing necessary to completeness; perfect" according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon and "having reached its end, finished, complete" according to the Liddell & Scott Greek lexicon. In other words, when the finishing of something has come, these gifts will cease. Here are some common interpretations of the word "perfect" (telios) in 1 Cor. 13:10.

1. maturity attained in our glorified state. This mixes metaphors (explained below).
2. the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. However, Christ is never described in the neuter gender. This also mixes metaphors (explained below).
3. the completion of the canon.

I believe the 3rd interpretation is correct for the following reasons. Firstly, this interpretation better explains how prophecy, tongues and words of new knowledge are incomplete (see "For we know in part and we prophecy in part" in verse 9). They are incomplete because, at that period in history, God had not completed them. Secondly, the third interpretation fits perfectly with the two metaphors that Paul uses to explain how the church's knowledge will become complete. The two metaphors that Paul uses to explain the contrast between knowing or prophesying in part and complete knowledge are as follows:

1. knowledge of a child vs. knowledge of a man
2. seeing through a dim mirror vs. seeing face to face

It can not be emphasized enough that these metaphors must be taken as metaphors. The first mistake people make in this passage is to interpret the "face to face" as the 2nd coming of Christ. This would be mixing the metaphor ("seeing in a mirror") with something real (seeing Jesus Christ at His 2nd coming). Paul would never mix a metaphor with reality. If the first part is metaphorical (seeing in a mirror) so must the 2nd part (seeing face to face). Paul is telling us that the completion of the canon will be like looking at someone face to face, compared to looking through the dim reflection of a 1st century mirror.

Cessationism Defended - RealGospel.org

​

which version is it? Which translation?

 

[unclefester]

The verse in 1 Corinthinans 13, that definitely is not metaphorical in any way, shape, or, form, and, definitively, throws an axe in the 'cessationism defended.org' article.

"Now I know in part but then shall I know even as I am known.'

There is nothing metaphorical about this verse whatsoever, as I say above, the verse says that we are only knowing Jesus in part, in this case, that 'part' would be faith in Him, hope in Him, Love in Him, but ONE DAY we will KNOW Him face to face, no more need for hope, faith, Love of Jesus, for we will no longer JUST have Him in our minds' eye, we will be seeing Him face to face, knowing Him just like He knows us, we will SEE Jesus face to face when we get to heaven or Rapture (depending on what you believe).

Chronologically Green.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part and we prophesy in part, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but when completeness comes,what is in part disappears. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Faith, hope and love remain after prophecies and tongues cease. Neither side is arguing that. If they do not cease until Christ returns, that means that faith and hope remain ... after we have seen Christ face to face. Yet we are told : "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Who "hopes" for something they already have ? Who looks for "the evidence of things not seen" ... after we have already seen it in Christ ? If you hope for a new bike for Christmas and receive it, are you still hoping for it ? Of course not. Why would you ? So naturally, the next argument always presented by those who "prophesie and speak in tongues" is : Are you cessationists claiming that there is no more "knowledge" today either then ? Declaring God's truth which had been specifically and directly revealed by the Holy Spirit to the apostles and prophets in the absence of the written New Testament revelation (through prophecy and knowledge) were and still remain God's sovereign enduement of special direct revelation of truths now contained in the canonical New Testament Scriptures. I have examined thoroughly today's claims of some being an apostle, prophet and/or speaking in tongues. They are bogus and an affront to God and the work of His Holy Spirit. And not the least bit surprising, they ride the same bus of pentecostalism/charismania. I know me saying this makes many angry and uneasy. But there is simply no other way to say it. I'm not interested in "winning an argument" for arguments sake. The matter is long settled with God's complete and sufficient written Word and will remain so.

 

[unclefester]

which version is it? Which translation?

Use any generally accepted version you like ... KJV, ESV, NIV, RSV, ASV etc. It changes nothing.

 

[presidente]

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Faith, hope and love remain after prophecies and tongues cease. Neither side is arguing that. If they do not cease until Christ returns, that means that faith and hope remain ... after we have seen Christ face to face. Yet we are told : "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Who "hopes" for something they already have ? Who looks for "the evidence of things not seen" ... after we have already seen it in Christ ?

There is a big problem with your viewpoint. The quote you gave doesn't support what you are saying. It doesn't say that faith, hope and love will remain after the coming of the perfect. It does not say that they will cease after the coming of the perfect. Nothing in the passage ties the coming of the perfect to the issue of whether hope and love still remain. It just doesn't say that. Paul says that 'now' faith, hope, and love remain. So how does the verse have anything to do with the argument you are making?

Also, does hope cease at the resurrection? We hope for the resurrection, but does that mean we can't hope for Christ to deliver the kingdom to God after the resurrection? Does that mean we can't have faith for this to occur? Sure, now we have faith that Christ will return, but why won't we have faith for other aspects of God's plan after the resurrection? Won't we have faith that eternal fellowship with God will continue? If faith is an aspect of God's own character, and it was involved in creation, why would we lack it?

 

[watcher2013]

Use any generally accepted version you l ... KJV, ESV, NIV, RSV, ASV etc. It changes nothing.

So many translations, if it is the "perfect" to come.
So many interpretation, resulting in many denominations.
We still strive for knowledge, we still hold on to our faith, the two witnesses of revelation shall perform miracles evidently that part had not been done away. and the book of daniel said that "knowledge shall increase" instead of being done away.

By the way, can you show me in the canon, what was the meaning of the seven thunders, john was not told to write?
(not so perfect, after all)
But when we are translated into immortal bodies. That part will be done away, and then face to face...

 

[presidente]

Uncle Fester wrote,

Faith, hope and love remain after prophecies and tongues cease. Neither side is arguing that. If they do not cease until Christ returns, that means that faith and hope remain ... after we have seen Christ face to face.

I was just thinking about this. If one accepts your premise that the abstract qualities of faith and hope cease when the specific things we are hoping for now can be seen, then that is a pretty strong argument against cessationism.

There are two time periods in the passage, 'now' and 'then.' Now we know in part, then I shall know as I am known. Now refers to the time when there is 'in part' and 'then' refers to when the perfect comes.

So what characterizes the 'now' time period? NOW we know in PART. So 'now' is not the time when the perfect comes.

But during 'now' abideth faith, hope, and charity. So if you think that faith and hope cease when Jesus comes, and both the time of the imperfect and the abiding of faith and hope occur during 'now' then that is an argument that the perfect hasn't come yet, and will come when Jesus comes.

Your argument supports the opposite of what you are trying to argue for if you think about it.

Not that I accept your premise. If God created the world by faith, I don't see why faith would ever cease to exist.

 

[notuptome]

Not that I accept your premise. If God created the world by faith, I don't see why faith would ever cease to exist.

God did not create the world by faith. God created the world by His divine omnipotent will. God spoke and it was.

How can we have faith in something we see? I see Jesus now only by faith but then face to face. I believe Jesus now and I will believe Him throughout all eternity.

Faith does produce a sure and certain hope.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Sanashankar]

Sanashankar,

Do you know that God's name is not Jehovah?

I know...but why the question??? I'm not a Jehovah Witness

I know Jehovah/Yahweh/YHWH is Jesus Christ in Old testament.

You don't like me, do you???? im going to have more enemies in Christian chat because of this reply.

 

[Sanashankar]

Here we go again, to see in a mirror is to see a reflection. When we see face to face that is in person.
Reflection - mirror - Faith and Hope
Face to face - Charity(Love) - for God is love.
Now, - "for when I was a child I spake as a child" - when? At what time was the writer of half the books of the new testament a child? Before he was saved or after? The cessationist must claim that Paul is perfect, and beholding the truth face to face. Yet Paul says - "for NOW we see through a glass darkly, but THEN face to face."
- (He goes on...."NOW I know in part; (this is the writer of 13 epistles speaking), but THEN shall I know even as I am known."
- - - "And NOW abideth faith, hope and charity, but the greatest of these is charity".
Then He says - (the writer of half of the books of the New Testament); Follow after charity, AND DESIRE SPIRITUAL GIFTS, BUT RATHER THAT YE SHOULD PROPHECY." (And He goes on to speak of the necessity of the gift of prophecy for the Corinthian church).
The time frame and the present and future tenses are very clear, so that no one can misunderstand it.

[TABLE="width: 50%"]
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[TD="width: 70%"]First Thessalonians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 52 AD [/TD]
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[TD="width: 70%"] Second Thessalonians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 52 AD [/TD]
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[TD="width: 70%"] First Corinthians
[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 57 AD
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[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Second Corinthians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 57 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Galatians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 55-57 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Romans [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 57-58 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Ephesians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 62 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Philippians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 62 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Colossians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 62 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Philemon [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 63 AD [/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Hebrews [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 64-65 AD [/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Titus [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 64-65 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] First Timothy [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 64-65 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Second Timothy [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 66-67 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Too early...I think if we read all Paul's epistle from beginning to the end, u see the difference. The things he has wriiten in the last epistles is much more matured than what we read in the earlier ones. Of course Paul was growing in the truth. God did not show him the truth in one single day..

 

[unclefester]

I was just thinking about this. If one accepts your premise that the abstract qualities of faith and hope cease when the specific things we are hoping for now can be seen, then that is a pretty strong argument against cessationism.

There are two time periods in the passage, 'now' and 'then.' Now we know in part, then I shall know as I am known. Now refers to the time when there is 'in part' and 'then' refers to when the perfect comes.

So what characterizes the 'now' time period? NOW we know in PART. So 'now' is not the time when the perfect comes.

But during 'now' abideth faith, hope, and charity. So if you think that faith and hope cease when Jesus comes, and both the time of the imperfect and the abiding of faith and hope occur during 'now' then that is an argument that the perfect hasn't come yet, and will come when Jesus comes.

Your argument supports the opposite of what you are trying to argue for if you think about it.

Not that I accept your premise. If God created the world by faith, I don't see why faith would ever cease to exist.

The "now" you refer to was written almost two-thousand years ago ... prior to the completion of the New Testament. Context cannot be ignored.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for ... the evidence of things not seen. When we find ourselves in Christ's presence eternally, we'll have no need for hope. Our hope that once was will be fulfilled.

 

[zone]

[TABLE="width: 50%"]
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[TD="width: 70%"]First Thessalonians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 52 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Second Thessalonians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 52 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] First Corinthians
[/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 57 AD
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Second Corinthians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 57 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Galatians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 55-57 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Romans [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 57-58 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Ephesians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 62 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Philippians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 62 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Colossians [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 62 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Philemon [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 63 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Hebrews [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 64-65 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Titus [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 64-65 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] First Timothy [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 64-65 AD [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70%"] Second Timothy [/TD]
[TD="width: 30%"] 66-67 AD[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Too early...I think if we read all Paul's epistle from beginning to the end, u see the difference. The things he has wriiten in the last epistles is much more matured than what we read in the earlier ones. Of course Paul was growing in the truth. God did not show him the truth in one single day..

You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice.

 

[zone]

There is a big problem with your viewpoint. The quote you gave doesn't support what you are saying. It doesn't say that faith, hope and love will remain after the coming of the perfect. It does not say that they will cease after the coming of the perfect. Nothing in the passage ties the coming of the perfect to the issue of whether hope and love still remain. It just doesn't say that. Paul says that 'now' faith, hope, and love remain. So how does the verse have anything to do with the argument you are making?

Also, does hope cease at the resurrection? We hope for the resurrection, but does that mean we can't hope for Christ to deliver the kingdom to God after the resurrection? Does that mean we can't have faith for this to occur? Sure, now we have faith that Christ will return, but why won't we have faith for other aspects of God's plan after the resurrection? Won't we have faith that eternal fellowship with God will continue? If faith is an aspect of God's own character, and it was involved in creation, why would we lack it?


[/SIZE]

oh the lengths ppl will go to keep their lame-o fake prophecies.

 

[zone]

which version is it? Which translation?

he gave you the source.
did you bother clicking on it?

Cessationism Defended - RealGospel.org < click (oops...not a hotlink...you'll have to go back to uncle's post)

 

[BradC]

There are two things concerning the church, a foundation and what is built on that foundation. Both of these make the church as the pillar and ground of the truth. We, the body of Christ, are the temple of God built upon that foundation where the Spirit of God dwells. The foundation is Christ, the chief corner stone and no other foundation can be laid. The apostles and prophets were used to lay that foundation and the gifts that have been given to the church are used to erect and build up that temple, which consists of every member of Christ's body that it might be fitly framed together as a habitation of God THROUGH THE SPIRIT. The foundation of the original apostles and prophet is finished and can not be added to or taken away. Right now with continuous action the household of God is being built on that foundation but not without the Spirit of God dwelling in that house.

I would like for someone to give us all the names of the apostles and prophets recorded in scripture that were used to lay and build the foundation of the church. Can you also provide for us what makes up the substance of that foundation or in other words, what kind of foundation did these men lay? Edification means to be built up. I think it is very interesting what Moses said in Numbers 11:29,

'And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord'S people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!'

The prophecy and promise of the Spirit has already come at Pentecost and the Spirit not only fell upon those who believed but came to indwell the believer. The Spirit that resides in the brethren through faith reveals the testimony of Christ in them, which according to Rev 19:10 is the spirit of prophecy. So every believer who has trusted in the testimony of Christ has the spirit of prophecy in them or the breath of God's inspiration as to the divine will and purpose of God. The Spirit that dwells within speaks on behalf of the words of the Son as the spirit of prophecy. You can't get around that. Who in times past spoke to us through the prophets has in these last days spoken unto us by the testimony of his Son which is the spirit of prophecy. Everything concerning the Son involves the spirit of prophecy. If we live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God concerning the Son, then what we confess and speak concerning the Jesus is a spirit of prophecy. The prophet of old have spoken of Christ's first coming and now we speak of his second coming by the same Spirit.

The foundation is there and we add to that foundation by building upon it. We don't build or add a new layer to the foundation because it lacks something, but we build anew through the preaching and teaching of the gospel and through the words of grace that adds to the temple of the church such as should be added through the Spirit. Jesus said the words I speak to you are spirit and life, that is the spirit of prophecy because they reveal the testimony of Jesus. The thoughts we have of our Savior at this very moment involve the spirit of prophecy as to who he is, how he reveals himself to man and when he will come back for his own, who he has redeemed by his precious blood. Moses had a heart filled with the spirit of prophecy and desired it upon all of God's people.

 

[presidente]

The "now" you refer to was written almost two-thousand years ago ... prior to the completion of the New Testament. Context cannot be ignored.

What context? The context of the passage doesn't mention time periods before the coming of Christ during which these gifts will be inactive. You were the one asserting that certain things will cease as if that argued for cessationism before the return of Christ, when you apparently believe that hope and faith will continue until Christ returns. Yet the verse you mentioned said 'now' abide faith hope and charity. The passage also says that 'now' we see through a glass darkly. If 'now' is when faith and hope still exists, and it still exists until Christ returns, then how can you believe in cessationism before Christ returns?

I don't buy your argument that faith will no longer exist when Jesus returns. Are you saying you won't believe in Jesus after the Second Coming or the time John mentions when he saw the New Jerusalem?

Your argument about faith ceasing could be spun into a continualist argument. I don't see how you have a chance of making a cessationist argument out of it that you can spent a cogent argument for using scripture. But even if it would make an argument for this other thing I support, I don't see any evidence for it. If the object of your faith is seen, that doesn't mean the need for faith is no more. There is who you are believing in and there is also what you are believing for.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for ... the evidence of things not seen. When we find ourselves in Christ's presence eternally, we'll have no need for hope. Our hope that once was will be fulfilled.

We may see Jesus, but don't we have to continue to have some trust in Him that things will continue as the Bible promised for eternity after we enter the age to come? If the Bible tells us there will be no more death or mourning or crying, we can still believe that promise 10,000 years from now or a million years from now.

 

[presidente]

I don't think that way brother, because if we read some verses above and below that we understand Paul is not talking abt a person, but abt the age to come, which is already come. He is making it simple for followers to understand.
Paul is trying to say that showing miracles is a childish thing. When u mature in the knowledge and faith, u no longer require it.

Paul says nothing of the sort. Hebrews speaks of 'the powers of the age to come.' And Paul says that the kingdom of God is not in word but in power. Never are miracles presented as childish. It makes more sense to see them as a small taste of the age to come being presented in this age.

1C 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child,( thru miracles like tongues, prophecies, healing) I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.(through faith)

The passage you quote says absolutely nothing about miracles or healing. In Revelation, we read about the healing for the nations. Jesus also said if He cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. He indicates that casting out demons is a miracle.

Paul does not call prophecy or knowledge childish or say that prophecy or knowledge will be done away with. That which is IN PART will be done away with, not prophecy, but prophecy in part. Not knowledge, but knowledge in part. Knowledge is a good thing. All the mysteries and knowledge are in Christ. Prophecy is not to be done away with-- the word of the Lord endures forever.

Nowhere does the Bible talk about miracles ceasing.

Dont u see that paul is not speaking abt miracles in his later epistles.

That's a weak argument. Not only is it an argument from silence, but the facts we have do not support your claim. This is also a case of using human reasoning to discard Biblical arguments. The Bible doesn't say healing gradually died out. People who believe that just try to make a case for it from what tidbits exist on the subject.

It is true that Paul mentions miracles a couple of times in I Corinthians and discusses various other gifts in more depth in that chapter and doesn't elaborate in as much depth in some of his later epistles. But Paul was addressing the particular problems of Corinth. He doesn't talk about problems with the Lord's Supper in later epistles. That doesn't mean they stopped having the Lord's Supper, or that they no longer had to do it with reverence. Imagine someone arguing that over time, it because less important to discern the Lord's body at the time of I Corinthian's writing, but as time progressed, it became less important until such a thing no longer exists. Yet you don't mind discarding Biblical teaching about certain spiritual gifts using the same reasoning.

I see in an EARLIER epistle, Paul had an infirmity himself. Some kind of infirmity caused him to minister to the Galatians. It may have been an eye problem because they would have plucked out their own eyes for him. If we follow the time line of Paul's ministry through Acts and look for evidence of the supernatural, some of the more notable things occur later, like extraordinary miracles in Ephesus with people being healed from cloths he touched, and every one of the sick that were brought to him at Miletus being healed.

The typical viewpoint is that Revelation was written later, and the way that book was given was very miraculous, and it looked forward to prophets and two witnesses who would shut up the heavens and fire would consume their enemies. This doesn't fit with the idea that miracles gradually declined.

 

[unclefester]

What context? The context of the passage doesn't mention time periods before the coming of Christ during which these gifts will be inactive. You were the one asserting that certain things will cease as if that argued for cessationism before the return of Christ, when you apparently believe that hope and faith will continue until Christ returns. Yet the verse you mentioned said 'now' abide faith hope and charity. The passage also says that 'now' we see through a glass darkly. If 'now' is when faith and hope still exists, and it still exists until Christ returns,then how can you believe in cessationism before Christ returns?

I don't buy your argument that faith will no longer exist when Jesus returns. Are you saying you won't believe in Jesus after the Second Coming or the time John mentions when he saw the New Jerusalem?

Your argument about faith ceasing could be spun into a continualist argument. I don't see how you have a chance of making a cessationist argument out of it that you can spent a cogent argument for using scripture. But even if it would make an argument for this other thing I support, I don't see any evidence for it. If the object of your faith is seen, that doesn't mean the need for faith is no more. There is who you are believing in and there is also what you are believing for.

We may see Jesus, but don't we have to continue to have some trust in Him that things will continue as the Bible promised for eternity after we enter the age to come? If the Bible tells us there will be no more death or mourning or crying, we can still believe that promise 10,000 years from now or a million years from now.

First learn what being a cessationist is and means. Or don't. It's been explained many many times throughout these threads. In regards to the second and third highlights, do you believe it is even possible to not have faith in Christ while in His heavenly, eternal and glorious presence ? Can "having faith" exist if it's opposite does not ...i.e... "not having faith" ? What value and substance can faith possibly have if there is no alternative to it ? And again, what is faith ?

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.