So post your points of how the gifts have ended

[zone]

Friend tell us then in the interpretation you received, what the perfect will come and the partial be taken away?

why can't you do the research on your own before coming to this debate?

it's really not difficult to spend some time understanding the cessationist position yourself.

i get that the continuationist says the miraculous gifts we read of never ceased (or ceased due to human suppression of some kind, then restarted). their activities and proclamations are supposed to be proof that what they do (and claim to do) is exactly like Christ and the Apostles did.

anything less than that (exactly like Christ and the Apostles did) means you have something, but not the biblical gifts.

[LANGUAGES VS GLOSSOLALIA squashes the whole thing. but that's only part of the cessationist position]

why don't we educate ourselves about what cessationism is?
it seems pretty important to some to prove it wrong...why not go off site and get serious about reading?

in any case.....here's ONE example which covers the cessationist position (from a Baptist source). just do a week of reading on your own. you may disagree in the end, but at least the questions that are answered by cessationists would be known. and not asked and re-asked over and again.





The Gender and Meaning of “the Perfect”

The critical question raised with these verses is the meaning of the term “the perfect” (to; tevleion) in 13:10. The term “the perfect” represents an articular neuter adjective functioning as a substantive and translated “the perfect” or “that which is perfect.”71 Much has been said about the neuter gender of the adjective and what that indicates in terms of the adjective’s antecedent.72

The best explanation is that the adjective gets its gender from the neuter noun forming the expression “in part” in 13:9–10. In other words, by using the neuter form of the adjective in this context, Paul signifies that whatever the “in part” refers to, “the perfect” refers to its counterpart or its antithesis.73

Having the adjective in the neuter gender thus links “the perfect” and the “in part” as having ultimately the same referent. Whatever the “in part” refers to, the “perfect” refers to as well. The only difference between the two expressions is the difference over the relative dimension or extent of the referent.

Having answered the question about the gender and antecedent of “the perfect,” what remains is to identify the meaning of “in part” in 13:9. Since Paul declares that the gifts mentioned in 13:9 are in some way “in part,” the proper approach to identifying the meaning of the phrase is to ask what these gifts have in common that could be described as “in part.” Based on the definitions given above, the common denominator among the gifts is that they all involve direct revelation from God.

As such, the expression “in part” simply refers to the fact that the revelation communicated by these gifts is partial or piecemeal. The corresponding expression “the perfect” as the counterpart to the partial must refer to the full or complete revelation, of which these gifts contribute their portion.

Finally, since these gifts are specifically identified in 12:27–28 as those which God has given to the church, the body of Christ, “the perfect” represents the full or complete revelation that God intends for the church. Thus, “the perfect” points to completed revelation God has intended for the church and has preserved in the New Testament.74"

http://www.dbts.edu/journals/2004/Compton.pdf < click

~

maybe stop using the word canon, is my suggestion.
it just derails the whole idea of the very simple assertion by Paul that one day, soon (his wrote in his day), God will have completed His revealed Will to man, and Finished His Revelation about Jesus Christ and salvation, in what we call the New Testament, and the gifts would cease.

did Hebrews say the Old Covenant was waxing old and would soon vanish away?
wow....things can cease and come to an end - WHEN GOD SAYS THEY WILL.

the whole of the complied books (revealed to man by God), both Old & New are His WORD to us.

COMPLETE. that's all PERFECT means.

and THE Perfect doesn't refer to Jesus there.
Paul isn't discussing Jesus. he is discussing something partial vs something complete.
gifts and their purpose and use.
he said clearly they would fail; or cease.
he never brought up eternity or Jesus at all.
he was admonishing them about their over-emphasis on things which were partial and temporary.

we now know more than they did.
it's really obvious.
to cessationists anyways.
especially since all we can see today are activities that don't resemble what is recorded, in the slightest.

 

[presidente]

i get that the continuationist says the miraculous gifts we read of never ceased (or ceased due to human suppression of some kind, then restarted). their activities and proclamations are supposed to be proof that what they do (and claim to do) is exactly like Christ and the Apostles did.

anything less than that (exactly like Christ and the Apostles did) means you have something, but not the biblical gifts.

Faulty reasoning. There is no reason to assert that the regular members of the congregation who worked miracles or healings as referred to in I Corinthians 12 did so to the same 'level' of the apostles. Paul on one occasion had some kind of infirmity, probably his eyes, that caused him to end up ministering to the Galatians. Later, he healed all the sick on an island. On one occasion, he left someone sick at Miletus. The apostles in Acts 4 prayed for God to stretch out His hand to do signs and wonders. Yet they had already been doing miracles. So apparently miracles weren't always coming out at full blast 100% for the apostles, either.

As such, the expression “in part” simply refers to the fact that the revelation communicated by these gifts is partial or piecemeal. The corresponding expression “the perfect” as the counterpart to the partial must refer to the full or complete revelation, of which these gifts contribute their portion.

Finally, since these gifts are specifically identified in 12:27–28 as those which God has given to the church, the body of Christ, “the perfect” represents the full or complete revelation that God intends for the church. Thus, “the perfect” points to completed revelation God has intended for the church and has preserved in the New Testament.74"

http://www.dbts.edu/journals/2004/Compton.pdf < click

I am not arguing the grammar, but rather the conclusion. It doesn't make sense. The apostles have this partial gift and write down their partial prophecies. And by reading what they wrote, we are supposed to have so much greater knowledge and understanding than them, that our understanding is like an adults and their is like children? Just reading Paul, I get the impression that most preachers and interpreters of Paul do not understand Paul's doctrine like Paul did. Even having the epistles of John, Peter, etc. does not make them so great in their understanding that Paul looks like a child in comparison. That interpretation just does not fit the passage.

And we also need to look at the overall context of the epistle in which believers come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul's writings on tongues, prophecy, and spiritual gifts in chapters 14-15 lead up to the discussion of the resurrection at the coming of Christ in chapter 15, and we see a parallel theme in chapter 13, tongues, prophecy, and the coming of the perfect. Our understanding will change at the resurrection like other things. As John says, we will be like him, for we will see Him as He is.

the whole of the complied books (revealed to man by God), both Old & New are His WORD to us.

COMPLETE. that's all PERFECT means.

and THE Perfect doesn't refer to Jesus there.
Paul isn't discussing Jesus. he is discussing something partial vs something complete.
gifts and their purpose and use.

As much as I value the scriptures and adhere to a Protestant notion of them myself, I can't help but think that your interpretation is anachronistic, reading a post-Reformation emphasis and concept of the purpose of the canon back into a passage of scripture that doesn't even hint at the idea. It's eisegesis.

and THE Perfect doesn't refer to Jesus there.
Paul isn't discussing Jesus. he is discussing something partial vs something complete.

This is a major straw man argument. I haven't seen a sophisticated continualist commentator say that grammatically the word refers to Christ as a grammatical referent. It is sophistry to argue that since it does not, that the passage cannot refer to the state of the believer at the resurrection which occurs at second coming.

 

[iamsoandso]

r.o.l.t.floor,,,crying,,,,,,,,were all supposed to be responding to how many gifts are no longer needed??????

 

[crossnote]

Ephesians 4:11-13

Ephesians 4:11-14 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

So are you saying that thru current so called apostles and prophets we are receiving new revelation?
I'd rather see that God gave us those offices and we have their fruit in Holy Scripture that we may grow. BTW we still have teachers in the body, ...hint, hint.

 

[Sanashankar]

Friend tell us then in the interpretation you received, what the perfect will come and the partial be taken away?

1C 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Strong's dictionary

G5046 teleios tel'-i-os

complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness.

“But when the TELEION comes, the partial will be done away.” The adjective, translated “perfect”, is the subject of the sentence and the gender is neuter. The gender neutral would not be used if God or Jesus Christ were in mind. Paul used the neuter gender, referring to a thing, not a person.

Moreover, if the Second Coming of Jesus is meant, then we are in the "in part" state, seeing Christ has not come. This presents a serious problem in view of all the scriptures that emphasize the completeness of revelation and of our present system being complete. Paul wrote, "And ye are complete in him." (Col. 2: 10, the illustration of I Corinthians 13: 11-13 can also be understood of the word, see James 1: 23-25).

God be with u

That Which Is Perfect

 

[Sanashankar]

Chapter 1 says ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It gives us some clues to understanding this chapter.

That's not true. There is plenty of evidence of spiritual gifts, especially during the next couple of centuries, and even throughout history. The men referred to as 'church fathers' refer to such things in their history. Many stories of the 'apostle of' this country or that country were said to have started churches with the help of miracles. One of the more famous examples, Saint Patrick, was pretty far removed, time-wise, from the first century, for example. [/SIZE][/FONT]

An apostle had to be an eyewitness of the resurrected Christ

Ac 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

The term Apostle, as used today, is more accurately describing a Evangelist or a Missionary, not an actual person that witnessed Jesus Christ in person (Paul- 1Cor 15:8).

I guess it is clear from the bible that apostasy or the falling away started when the apostles were in their last times.

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

Of course this verse proves from where the so called modern "apostles" and "prophets" gets the power to do all the miracles. There is a way of living that all the apostles followed. They did not travel in bens car, they did not live in bangalows, they did not have private jets. This is how a true apostles life wud be:

2C 11:23-27 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I [am] more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
Of the Jews five times received I forty [stripes] save one.
Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
[In] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;
In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

Are not the ministers of Christ supposed to follow the way of Christ. Paul did. I dion't see any of the modern ministers doing it. So how do they get the power to do this. Hypnotism??magic??thru the power of the wrong one?? i dont know. but it is not from God for sure.

God does miracles, i have experienced it in my life alot. But the miracles that these ministers do.....they are not walking in the narrow way which gives eternal life. They don't have anysorrows, worries in their life. God did not promise his kingdom for such people but he said they are false prophets

Mt 7:13-15Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Why our lord had to say abt false prophets soon after the way to life.

Why does the Bible end with a spectacular vision, including a vision of men shutting up the heavens, if the supernatural just gradually trickled away? Wouldn't we expect a more mundane book at the end if that were the case?

John saw the vision what is described in book of revelation, 14 years before Paul wrote 2Corinthians.

2C 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

And book of revelation is a book of signs and symbols. We are not to take it literally.

The Wicked one is already started showing himself as God. Except the few chosen ones, all are worshiping him unknowingly, thinking they are really worshiping God. We are to come out of it and walk in the narrow way.

 

[Sanashankar]

To those who believed that the gifts have ceased, will think that the miracles of two witnesses are lies.

There are diversities of gifts (1 cor 12) these include faith, knowledge, wisdom.
We have faith.
We still have knowledge.
And certainly we are not fools.

[1Co 12:11-12] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. v 12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

To deny the gifts of Spirit is to deny the Spirit.

Paul said

1C 13:8 . Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

and then he said:

1C 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.

He did not say faith, hope and charity would cease or vanish or fail.

Of course we are not fools, but at the same time, we do not have the knowledge that the followers used to have then. Modern Christianity is loaded with heathen beliefs. The knowledge is hidden from common people like us by them

The correct word meaning for vanish away is

G2673 katargeo kat-arg-eh'-o

to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively.

We no longer require the knowledge, its become useless for us. We go behind things like hell fire, tithing, healing, tongues, cross....we believe what modern so called "apostles and prophets" say.

 

[Sanashankar]

We have millions of bible translations, but none of it is error free...we have 1000s of denominations, but not even one church teaches the truth.Christians all around the world give their 10% as tithe, still there are millions who are homeless, hungry, in need. Seeing all these are we stopping giving the tithes???no we still continue. We are not fools, but do we have the knowledge abt God? His unconditional love?

 

[presidente]

G5046 teleios tel'-i-os

complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness.

“But when the TELEION comes, the partial will be done away.” The adjective, translated “perfect”, is the subject of the sentence and the gender is neuter. The gender neutral would not be used if God or Jesus Christ were in mind. Paul used the neuter gender, referring to a thing, not a person.

Paul is talking about 'that which is perfect' coming. The fact that it does not agree in gender with the name of Christ is irrelevant. If the perfect comes when Christ returns, that is the issue, not the grammatical gender of words representing related concepts. No one is saying that 'Christ' is the referent, grammatically, of 'Christ.' That's not the argument.

Moreover, if the Second Coming of Jesus is meant, then we are in the "in part" state, seeing Christ has not come. This presents a serious problem in view of all the scriptures that emphasize the completeness of revelation and of our present system being complete. Paul wrote, "And ye are complete in him." (Col. 2: 10, the illustration of I Corinthians 13: 11-13 can also be understood of the word, see James 1: 23-25).

First, how is that any less of a contradiction than the idea that the completion of the canon is the perfect? It raises the same set of concerns. At least the idea that perfection in prophecy and understanding comes at the second coming is consistent with the flow of argument in I Corinthians. It fits the part at the beginning about coming behind in no gift waiting to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ (in the context of discussing knowledge and utterance.) It also fits the fact that in I Corinthians 13, he mentions tongues, prophecy, and the coming of the perfect, and in the next two chapters he writes about tongues, prophecy, and the state of the believer at the resurrection at the coming of Christ.

The use of 'the prefect' depends on the context. In I Corinthians 2, Paul spoke wisdom among the 'perfect.' But in relation to the resurrection of the dead, Paul did not see himself as 'perfect.'

Philippians 3
[SUP]11 [/SUP]If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

 

[presidente]

Of course we are not fools, but at the same time, we do not have the knowledge that the followers used to have then. Modern Christianity is loaded with heathen beliefs. The knowledge is hidden from common people like us by them

How can you hold to that view and argue that we have perfect knowledge then? Apostles and prophets are given until the church comes to the full measure of the stature of Christ and is not driven about by every wind of doctrine. Can we see that about the middle ages or the current day?

We no longer require the knowledge, its become useless for us. We go behind things like hell fire, tithing, healing, tongues, cross....we believe what modern so called "apostles and prophets" say.

Hell fire and tongues are Biblical. Tithes are also mentioned in the Old Testament. I'm not sure what you mean by 'go behind'.

 

[jb]

Acts 2v16-21,38,39, Eph 4v7-16 clearly teaches that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12v7-11) and spiritual ministeries (apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher and evangelist) are available to the Church throughout the WHOLE of the age of Grace right up until the 2nd coming of Christ.

I use the word 'available' because many Christians throughout the age of Grace, like the Israelites of old limit the Holy One of Israel and despise their Heavenly inheritance through unbelief! Psalm 78v41, Heb chapters 3 & 4

These 'believers' like the Scribes and Pharisees of Our Lord's day, extol(ed) the (apostles and) prophets of old (the Scribes/Pharisees Moses et al, the unbelieving Christian of today, the apostles/prophets of the early Church, Peter, James John and so forth), but when like ministeries appear today they (like the Scribes and Pharisees) judge, condemn, ridicule and reject them! Matt 23v29,30,34.

These unbelieving 'Christians' have only a 'form' of godliness but denying the power thereof! 2Tim 3v5

Gideon asks the question (Judges 6v13): '... if the Lord is with us...where are all His miracles?' God is a miracle working God Who longs to bless and heal a needy world and Church through His Presence and power through the spiritual ministeries and gifts of the Holy Spirit that He has set in and given to the Church!

The spiritual ministeries and gifts of the Holy Spirit will be vital for the Church during the last seven years of this age, especially during the last three and a half, the period known and the Great Tribulation, if it is to be an effective witness upon the earth, for the Scriptures clearly teach that the servants of the Devil will do great signs wonders and miracles. Let me ask the question to you unbelievers, how can the Church be an effective witness during the Great Tribulation when the servants of Satan will do these mighty signs, wonders and miracles? Matt 24v24, 2Thess 2v1-12, Rev 7v9,10,14, 13

Thankfully God has given us the answer in that He will set in the Church the Two Witness and like ministeries during the dark evil days of the Great Tribulation to be such witnesses against the servants of the Devil. Dan 11v32, Rev 11v3-6

So, seek the Lord Jesus now for His spiritual ministeries and spiritual gifts and prepare yourselves for the dark evil days that are surely coming upon the world in the very near future. Psalm 24v3-6, Dan 12v1, Matt 24v15-22

Yahweh Shalom

 

[peacefulbeliever]

1C 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Strong's dictionary

G5046 teleios tel'-i-os

complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness.

“But when the TELEION comes, the partial will be done away.” The adjective, translated “perfect”, is the subject of the sentence and the gender is neuter. The gender neutral would not be used if God or Jesus Christ were in mind. Paul used the neuter gender, referring to a thing, not a person.

Moreover, if the Second Coming of Jesus is meant, then we are in the "in part" state, seeing Christ has not come. This presents a serious problem in view of all the scriptures that emphasize the completeness of revelation and of our present system being complete. Paul wrote, "And ye are complete in him." (Col. 2: 10, the illustration of I Corinthians 13: 11-13 can also be understood of the word, see James 1: 23-25).

God be with u

That Which Is Perfect

Strong's Concordance : teleios - from the root word telos (from primary tello - to set out for a definite point or goal) telos - the limit at which a thing ceases to be
Young's Concordance : teleios - ended, complete, perfect
Thayer's : teleios - brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness; perfect, the perfect state of all things to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven

So "when that which is perfect is come" perfect is an adjective. . .who in scripture is described as perfect? I only know of one person described as perfect - Jesus Christ. Who will come at the end? - since teleios comes from the root word telos meaning end - this would be relevant - Jesus Christ. When will we have no need of childish things? When we have matured or become perfected - when Jesus Christ returns. When shall we see "face to face"? when Jesus Christ returns. When will we know even as we are known? when Jesus Christ returns.

Now - if that is not the case, then we have to concur that we have no need of word of knowledge; it "vanished away", together with word of knowledge is word of wisdom and also there would no longer be discerning of spirits if the manifestations of the spirit have ceased. I don't believe that is the case.

Also, why - by revelation of God - did Paul go on to correct the Corinthian church concerning their usage of the manifestations in the church? Why didn't he just go ahead and tell them that they needed to quit operating the manifestations of the spirit because he just told them previously that they have ceased?

 

[Sanashankar]

Strong's Concordance : teleios - from the root word telos (from primary tello - to set out for a definite point or goal) telos - the limit at which a thing ceases to be
Young's Concordance : teleios - ended, complete, perfect
Thayer's : teleios - brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness; perfect, the perfect state of all things to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven

So "when that which is perfect is come" perfect is an adjective. . .who in scripture is described as perfect? I only know of one person described as perfect - Jesus Christ. Who will come at the end? - since teleios comes from the root word telos meaning end - this would be relevant - Jesus Christ. When will we have no need of childish things? When we have matured or become perfected - when Jesus Christ returns. When shall we see "face to face"? when Jesus Christ returns. When will we know even as we are known? when Jesus Christ returns.

Now - if that is not the case, then we have to concur that we have no need of word of knowledge; it "vanished away", together with word of knowledge is word of wisdom and also there would no longer be discerning of spirits if the manifestations of the spirit have ceased. I don't believe that is the case.

Also, why - by revelation of God - did Paul go on to correct the Corinthian church concerning their usage of the manifestations in the church? Why didn't he just go ahead and tell them that they needed to quit operating the manifestations of the spirit because he just told them previously that they have ceased?

Yeah, i understood that. But if u check a greek bible u will see "to teleion" . that is why we see in strongs

complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness.

G3588 is

G3588 ho ho, including the feminine he hay, and the neuter to to

in all their inflections;

the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom).

thats what we see in the greek version

"to teleion tote to ek merous..." so since it has "to" before teleion it is the neuter. the same u see in

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but the perfect (to teleion i.e G3588 G5046 )
love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

If u notice all these spiritual gifts are actually physical manifestation of the holy spirit,so they deal with things here and now on earth. Now consider the fruit of the Spirit.

Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

When you have the Spirit indwelling God will product the fruit of the Spirit within you. These fruits are the development of God's own character/image within our heart and mind. These fruits are much higher in nature than the gifts/works that are for this life, because they are spiritual/heavenly in nature and transcend this physical life/world. This world and the things in it are temporary, but the fruit of the Spirit is "righteousness through Jesus Christ," that is eternal and will always remain as a permanent part of our character.

Php 1:11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.


Paul emphasized on the spiritual gifts to the Corinthians because they were yet carnal,

“You are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men?”

But then Paul wrote 2Corinthians he did not mention abt thisin the epistle.Why do we need miracles and signs when we believe in Him and have faith.
Lk 11:29 .This is an evil generation: they seek a sign;

 

[notuptome]

But then Paul wrote 2Corinthians he did not mention abt thisin the epistle.Why do we need miracles and signs when we believe in Him and have faith.
Lk 11:29 .This is an evil generation: they seek a sign;

This is specifically pointed at the Jews. The sign given was the sign of Jonah. Messiah would be in the grave three days and ascend into heaven. Gentiles seek wisdom not signs. Signs do not generate faith. Only the hearing of Gods word produces faith.
Tongues throughout the history of the Jews has been a sign of impending judgment. God used nations with languages the Jews did not understand to conquer them and oppress them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Sanashankar]

How can you hold to that view and argue that we have perfect knowledge then? Apostles and prophets are given until the church comes to the full measure of the stature of Christ and is not driven about by every wind of doctrine. Can we see that about the middle ages or the current day?



Hell fire and tongues are Biblical. Tithes are also mentioned in the Old Testament. I'm not sure what you mean by 'go behind'.

I did not say that we have perfect knowledge. did i?? The knowledge that u have abt God, all of it came from the apostles and prophets or God showed u thru the holy spirit??? Im sorry to say, but most of the apostles and prophets today are busy making money for themselves.

How can u call somebody apostle or prophet when they are not following the path of the Lord???
Have u seen anywhere in the bible , that Jesus used to wear costly clothes (purple those days), having a banglow, making international trips, having a church building.....Was Paul like one these apostles???

2C 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I [am] more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2C 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2C 11:26 [In] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;
2C 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

Don't u see Paul's sarcasm in the first verse??Is there any apostles or prophets who lead such a miserable life? i wud like to meet him. This is the narrow way which Jesus Christ preached.

 

[Sanashankar]

This is specifically pointed at the Jews. The sign given was the sign of Jonah. Messiah would be in the grave three days and ascend into heaven. Gentiles seek wisdom not signs. Signs do not generate faith. Only the hearing of Gods word produces faith.
Tongues throughout the history of the Jews has been a sign of impending judgment. God used nations with languages the Jews did not understand to conquer them and oppress them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yeah, got it. i was actually showing how Jesus Christ got angry when they asked for signs. Thanks for the info

 

[Sanashankar]

How can you hold to that view and argue that we have perfect knowledge then? Apostles and prophets are given until the church comes to the full measure of the stature of Christ and is not driven about by every wind of doctrine. Can we see that about the middle ages or the current day?



Hell fire and tongues are Biblical. Tithes are also mentioned in the Old Testament. I'm not sure what you mean by 'go behind'.

I would like to know what you understood from thiese verse

1C 13:8 . Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1C 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1C 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.1C 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 

[zone]

1) Also, why - by revelation of God - did Paul go on to correct the Corinthian church concerning their usage of the manifestations in the church?

2) Why didn't he just go ahead and tell them that they needed to quit operating the manifestations of the spirit because he just told them previously that they have ceased?

1) they were misusing them and boasting and causing division.
God was still working signs and wonders and miracles BECAUSE He was revealing New Covenant Truths to them in real time.
why is this so hard to accept?

2) he said they would cease. he did not tell them they had ceased.
they had not ceased when Paul wrote them, BECAUSE God was still working signs and wonders and miracles BECAUSE He was revealing New Covenant Truths to them in real time.

they had partial things revealed through the gifts.
we now have everything they had - all compiled once for all time.

 

[zone]

That which is perfect can be many things because "every"(more than one) good and PERFECT gift comes from the Father.

is your completely revealed account of God's Plan and purpose in Christ (the Bible) perfect?

is it a perfect (complete) gift with everything needed for the salvation of the soul and to equip the people of God for every good work, and instructions for life?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yeah, i understood that. But if u check a greek bible u will see "to teleion" . that is why we see in strongs

complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness.

G3588 is

G3588 ho ho, including the feminine he hay, and the neuter to to

in all their inflections;

the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom).

thats what we see in the greek version

"to teleion tote to ek merous..." so since it has "to" before teleion it is the neuter. the same u see in

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but the perfect (to teleion i.e G3588 G5046 )
love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

If u notice all these spiritual gifts are actually physical manifestation of the holy spirit,so they deal with things here and now on earth. Now consider the fruit of the Spirit.

Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

When you have the Spirit indwelling God will product the fruit of the Spirit within you. These fruits are the development of God's own character/image within our heart and mind. These fruits are much higher in nature than the gifts/works that are for this life, because they are spiritual/heavenly in nature and transcend this physical life/world. This world and the things in it are temporary, but the fruit of the Spirit is "righteousness through Jesus Christ," that is eternal and will always remain as a permanent part of our character.

Php 1:11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Paul emphasized on the spiritual gifts to the Corinthians because they were yet carnal,

“You are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men?”

But then Paul wrote 2Corinthians he did not mention abt thisin the epistle.Why do we need miracles and signs when we believe in Him and have faith.
Lk 11:29 .This is an evil generation: they seek a sign;

Being perfect (teleios) still has to do with something happening at the telo (end), since it is derived from that root word. We may be made perfect in the spirit but we will never obtain that perfectness until Christ returns and we see him face to face. Then we will know as we are known for when he appears we will be like him. As for "ye are yet carnal" it is in the context of divisions within the church.

When speaking of word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing (only one mentioned as a gift), working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues. . .these are manifestations of the Spirit. I don't know about you but I still need word of knowledge, word of wisdom, faith, discerning of spirits to live day to day as a Christian. I also believe that we need the manifestations of the Spirit to develop the fruit of Spirit.