Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
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Was Walter Mitty murky?
- - - - - - because your theology certainly is.
No trinitarians.........no internet...........no oneness............no nothing except the oneness of your repeating ode.
Much like a poor chorus with no resolve. - (No verse) - Perhaps you could include a CODA to break the monotony. -(Just a thought, Aurelius)
- - - - - - because your theology certainly is.
No trinitarians.........no internet...........no oneness............no nothing except the oneness of your repeating ode.
Much like a poor chorus with no resolve. - (No verse) - Perhaps you could include a CODA to break the monotony. -(Just a thought, Aurelius)
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I never once mentioned Jesus words being philosophy. Or the sacrifices.
Yes i can, but no i wont. At least for now ive stopped. Cant see any benefit.
My contention is in the nature of God in redemption. Ive heard your take.
And seen your scriptural position, and i just dont agree with it. And im not
wanting to get into a neverending battle....which im sure is all that will happen.
My activity in the thread was during a period when i wasnt sure what you were
actually teaching, now i know and cant see any point in discussing it. ty tho
Yes i can, but no i wont. At least for now ive stopped. Cant see any benefit.
My contention is in the nature of God in redemption. Ive heard your take.
And seen your scriptural position, and i just dont agree with it. And im not
wanting to get into a neverending battle....which im sure is all that will happen.
My activity in the thread was during a period when i wasnt sure what you were
actually teaching, now i know and cant see any point in discussing it. ty tho
I. God's foreknowledge is determinative.
II. Unregenerate man is a slave to sin, his free will is limited by his disposition.
III. Man is morally responsible for his sin.
IV. Man is morally responsible for Adam's sin.
V. It is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.
These are what the OP presents from the Scriptures.
A
I loved the majority of the OP till you had God on an ego trip. Making connections out of scripture that dont apply to the text and contradict the entire bible about Gods nature. Sorry im not able to do that. Im fine with His wrath and destroying those who hate Him. Your story had a different ending.
As for these 30 scriptures that you kept insisting you gave me to show Christ was the one true God, I didn't even bother to reply yesterday, for you were simply trying to evade the point being discussed, but I am afraid it is yet more flawed understanding on your part, I don't need to try and reason scripture to contradict the plain word to fit into my errors, I have the plain scripture, which shows the proof you think you gave me to show Christ is the one true God is error:
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent(John17:3)
What does Paul say?
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live(1Cor8:6)
And
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy to be destroyed is death. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For he ‘has put everything under his feet’.[SUP][c][/SUP] Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.(1Cor15:24-28)
What a surprise, Pauil agrees with Christ, and you can't get it any plainer than the above.
No man hath seen God at ANYTIME
1John4:12
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.(John6:46)
Are John and Christ speaking of ther same person? Definately
And so, Christ, Paul and John all agree, the Father is the one God(true God) So basically you putting up 30 scriptures to try and prove to me Christ is the one true God was an utter waste of time.
Now I know you're gonna just ignore these scriptures, you don't have much of a choice do you. But I gave you the plain and direct scripture on this subject, not faulty exegesis that seeks to overturn it.
But hey, as you know more truth than Peter, James, John and Paul I guess that gives you licence to ignore what they wrote doesn't it. Well you and I will never share the same view on that
But actually nearly all the ministers in the churches prove you know so little of what really matters, for as they will not preach your demands, eirther they are wrong or you are. Hmmmmmm. But as you run around telling people in effect they stand condemend/cannot be saved if they stand on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth, you have nothing serious to offer. Now be a good boy and run along will you and stop bringing you immature diatribe to threads
Actually I am putting you straight back on ignore, such childish and immature reasoning hardly brings forth stimulating conversation
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent(John17:3)
What does Paul say?
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live(1Cor8:6)
And
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy to be destroyed is death. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For he ‘has put everything under his feet’.[SUP][c][/SUP] Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.(1Cor15:24-28)
What a surprise, Pauil agrees with Christ, and you can't get it any plainer than the above.
No man hath seen God at ANYTIME
1John4:12
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.(John6:46)
Are John and Christ speaking of ther same person? Definately
And so, Christ, Paul and John all agree, the Father is the one God(true God) So basically you putting up 30 scriptures to try and prove to me Christ is the one true God was an utter waste of time.
Now I know you're gonna just ignore these scriptures, you don't have much of a choice do you. But I gave you the plain and direct scripture on this subject, not faulty exegesis that seeks to overturn it.
But hey, as you know more truth than Peter, James, John and Paul I guess that gives you licence to ignore what they wrote doesn't it. Well you and I will never share the same view on that
But actually nearly all the ministers in the churches prove you know so little of what really matters, for as they will not preach your demands, eirther they are wrong or you are. Hmmmmmm. But as you run around telling people in effect they stand condemend/cannot be saved if they stand on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth, you have nothing serious to offer. Now be a good boy and run along will you and stop bringing you immature diatribe to threads
Actually I am putting you straight back on ignore, such childish and immature reasoning hardly brings forth stimulating conversation
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For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, andfor the fact I would not want anyone to misunderstand my position(due to onlypreviously discussing what isand what is not salvific belief unto eternal life
God said to Moses:
See, Iam sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you tothe place I have prepared. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Pay attentionto him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will notforgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. [SUP]22 [/SUP]If you listencarefully to what he says and do all that I say,(important to note) I willbe an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. [SUP]23 [/SUP]My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into theland of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites,and I will wipe them out. Ex23:20-23)
Nextchapter
Mosesand Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up [SUP]10 [/SUP]and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet wassomething like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But God did not raise his hand against these leadersof the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank(9-11)
The 74leaders cannot have seen the Father/the one true God, for he has never beenseen(1John4:12&John6:46) They saw Christ. We know Christ accompanied themin the dessert(1Cor10:4) He was the God they knew if you like on the ground, whilethe one true God remained in Heaven, and the Father told Moses, HIS NAME was inthe angel who would accompany them./ A sign of what was to come. If you listen to what he says, and do allthat I say, etc.
HenceDavid, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said:
TheLord said to MY LORD sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstoolfor your feet(Psalm110:1)
AndElizabeth’s words
Why amI so favoured that the mother of MY LORD should come to visit me
Luk1:43
Andhence Thomas, who was an Israelite words
‘MyLord and my God John20:28
Christdid not correct Thomas for saying that, but only three chapters earlier hademphasised the truth, only the Father was the one TRUE God.
Themystery of Father Son and Spirit can be great, as one Trinitaran minister saidto me on another website. ‘Anyone who professes to fully understand the workingout of Father, Son and Holy Spirit(Trinity) shows how little they know of thesubject’
The fullnessof the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ, he is a true reflection of who theFather is, He is the express image of his being. There is no way to the Fatherbut by the Son, and the Son reigns now in Heaven and on earth for the Fatherhas put everything under his feet. Christ is completely Holy, he is above theangels, only the Father is greater than He, no one else comes close, or can do.But you cannot rationalise the spiritual according to the academic mind ofman/what seems logical to him, the conclusions he then draws
When you ask many Trinitarians WHY Christcould speak the word of God on this earth, they normally reply
BecauseChrist is God, they don’t normally give the response John did:
Theone whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for the Spirit is on him without limit John3:34
It seemsto me that for many Equal Trinitarians on these websites, it is not such anequal Trinity at all.
As Ihave repeatedly stated, the difference here is not as to the nature of Christbut his title and whether the Father is greater than he, that’s it. Well ifanyone on this website does not understand the name that we must believe Christto be unto salvation, you need to go to your ministers and ask to join a basicbible study course
Ifanyone acknowledges that Jesus is theSon of God, God lives in them and they in God 1John4:15
Iwrite these things to you who believe inthe name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life1John 5:13
Onceagain, it ain’t a theological exercise of the little grey cells, where you allcome out with some formula and demand it is followed. The Holy Spirit convictsof who a person must believe Christ to be unto salvation, he puts that in yourheart at conversion. And people, he won’t contradict the words of Christ whenhe walked this earth as to the requirement of belief needed unto salvation. Whydo I believe in the virgin birth? Because it makes sense to me? It doesn’t, butI know its true, because the Holy Spirit lives in me, and I could go to a wholelist of things and stress the same but I won’t.
Nowwhere I vehemently disagree with Rick(on what has not been discussed and itgoes to the heart of all of this) I do not believe those bishops/priests at thecouncil of Nicea knew more truth than did the leaders of the early church, IEPeter, James, John and Paul, to me that is a non starter. Carry that thinkingthrough, and you who have read much of theologians and scholars must believeyou know more spiritual truth than did Paul, Peter, James and John, well I willnever claim that, even if some of you want to. And so, the extra biblicaldemands for salvation became official church policy. Well I may be a dinasour,but I am so grateful I am, scripture will always be my bottom line, and the plaincommands/words of it, not the wisdom ofman that has somewhat overturned its basic requirements. You are right Rick,one day we will know, for now we see only in part, then we will know fully evenas we are fully known. But if only you could ask yourself WHY the scripturalrequirement is only to believe in the name Son of God where Christ isconcerned, and not God Himself, but I know you can’t It’s a shame really, yourfirst comment when you joined this debate was spot on, if only you had of leftit there.
Yousee, I am in the majority of required belief unto salvation in Christendom, butaccept I may not be on the internet, for though the minister do I am surebelieve Christ is God Himself in Trinitarian churches, in line with what isactually stated in the Bible nearly all of them DO NOT preach that as necessarysalvific belief unto salvation, that is the difference between them and a fewof you on these websites. And for people who are not blind fanatics, you needto ask yourselves, who is right, a few on here who make extra biblical demandsunto salvation, or nearly all the ministers in the Trinitarian churches? For bothsets of people cannot be right
Elin,if I post one more comment on this thread, please rebuke me, I want you to, I havesaid all I have to say, and all the people who want to argue this with me are now on ignore
thanks
God said to Moses:
See, Iam sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you tothe place I have prepared. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Pay attentionto him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will notforgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. [SUP]22 [/SUP]If you listencarefully to what he says and do all that I say,(important to note) I willbe an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. [SUP]23 [/SUP]My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into theland of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites,and I will wipe them out. Ex23:20-23)
Nextchapter
Mosesand Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up [SUP]10 [/SUP]and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet wassomething like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But God did not raise his hand against these leadersof the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank(9-11)
The 74leaders cannot have seen the Father/the one true God, for he has never beenseen(1John4:12&John6:46) They saw Christ. We know Christ accompanied themin the dessert(1Cor10:4) He was the God they knew if you like on the ground, whilethe one true God remained in Heaven, and the Father told Moses, HIS NAME was inthe angel who would accompany them./ A sign of what was to come. If you listen to what he says, and do allthat I say, etc.
HenceDavid, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said:
TheLord said to MY LORD sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstoolfor your feet(Psalm110:1)
AndElizabeth’s words
Why amI so favoured that the mother of MY LORD should come to visit me
Luk1:43
Andhence Thomas, who was an Israelite words
‘MyLord and my God John20:28
Christdid not correct Thomas for saying that, but only three chapters earlier hademphasised the truth, only the Father was the one TRUE God.
Themystery of Father Son and Spirit can be great, as one Trinitaran minister saidto me on another website. ‘Anyone who professes to fully understand the workingout of Father, Son and Holy Spirit(Trinity) shows how little they know of thesubject’
The fullnessof the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ, he is a true reflection of who theFather is, He is the express image of his being. There is no way to the Fatherbut by the Son, and the Son reigns now in Heaven and on earth for the Fatherhas put everything under his feet. Christ is completely Holy, he is above theangels, only the Father is greater than He, no one else comes close, or can do.But you cannot rationalise the spiritual according to the academic mind ofman/what seems logical to him, the conclusions he then draws
When you ask many Trinitarians WHY Christcould speak the word of God on this earth, they normally reply
BecauseChrist is God, they don’t normally give the response John did:
Theone whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for the Spirit is on him without limit John3:34
It seemsto me that for many Equal Trinitarians on these websites, it is not such anequal Trinity at all.
As Ihave repeatedly stated, the difference here is not as to the nature of Christbut his title and whether the Father is greater than he, that’s it. Well ifanyone on this website does not understand the name that we must believe Christto be unto salvation, you need to go to your ministers and ask to join a basicbible study course
Ifanyone acknowledges that Jesus is theSon of God, God lives in them and they in God 1John4:15
Iwrite these things to you who believe inthe name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life1John 5:13
Onceagain, it ain’t a theological exercise of the little grey cells, where you allcome out with some formula and demand it is followed. The Holy Spirit convictsof who a person must believe Christ to be unto salvation, he puts that in yourheart at conversion. And people, he won’t contradict the words of Christ whenhe walked this earth as to the requirement of belief needed unto salvation. Whydo I believe in the virgin birth? Because it makes sense to me? It doesn’t, butI know its true, because the Holy Spirit lives in me, and I could go to a wholelist of things and stress the same but I won’t.
Nowwhere I vehemently disagree with Rick(on what has not been discussed and itgoes to the heart of all of this) I do not believe those bishops/priests at thecouncil of Nicea knew more truth than did the leaders of the early church, IEPeter, James, John and Paul, to me that is a non starter. Carry that thinkingthrough, and you who have read much of theologians and scholars must believeyou know more spiritual truth than did Paul, Peter, James and John, well I willnever claim that, even if some of you want to. And so, the extra biblicaldemands for salvation became official church policy. Well I may be a dinasour,but I am so grateful I am, scripture will always be my bottom line, and the plaincommands/words of it, not the wisdom ofman that has somewhat overturned its basic requirements. You are right Rick,one day we will know, for now we see only in part, then we will know fully evenas we are fully known. But if only you could ask yourself WHY the scripturalrequirement is only to believe in the name Son of God where Christ isconcerned, and not God Himself, but I know you can’t It’s a shame really, yourfirst comment when you joined this debate was spot on, if only you had of leftit there.
Yousee, I am in the majority of required belief unto salvation in Christendom, butaccept I may not be on the internet, for though the minister do I am surebelieve Christ is God Himself in Trinitarian churches, in line with what isactually stated in the Bible nearly all of them DO NOT preach that as necessarysalvific belief unto salvation, that is the difference between them and a fewof you on these websites. And for people who are not blind fanatics, you needto ask yourselves, who is right, a few on here who make extra biblical demandsunto salvation, or nearly all the ministers in the Trinitarian churches? For bothsets of people cannot be right
Elin,if I post one more comment on this thread, please rebuke me, I want you to, I havesaid all I have to say, and all the people who want to argue this with me are now on ignore
thanks
Ac 4:28 is not an opinion.
In this life, man is not capable of making all moral choices.
He cannot choose to live a perfectly sinless life.
But Adam could have.
Man's responsibility is precisely what Paul labors to show in Ro 5:12-21.
Death is the penalty for sin.
Sin was not taken into account between Adam and Moses.
Yet men died, because they were involved in the sin of someone else, namely, Adam.
Involvement in sin is guilt of sin.
God punishes only the guilty.
Men were guilty of the sin of Adam.
That God works within the dispositions of men causing them to voluntarily choose to do as he wills is not philosophical.
It is attested to throughout Scripture.
Review the many Scriptures given which show it.
I loved the majority of the OP till you had. . .connections out of scripture that dont apply to the text[/quote]
Oh, but upon examination they most certainly do apply to the text.
That God judicially blinds, deafens (Lk 8:10) and hardens (Ro 11:25) is the testimony of Scripture.
That God holds men guilty of their judicial blindness, deafness and hardness is likewise the testimony of Scripture.
For it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.
Sorry you don't like that. . .but pleased that you loved the majority of the OP.
In this life, man is not capable of making all moral choices.
He cannot choose to live a perfectly sinless life.
But Adam could have.
Man's responsibility is precisely what Paul labors to show in Ro 5:12-21.
Death is the penalty for sin.
Sin was not taken into account between Adam and Moses.
Yet men died, because they were involved in the sin of someone else, namely, Adam.
Involvement in sin is guilt of sin.
God punishes only the guilty.
Men were guilty of the sin of Adam.
That God works within the dispositions of men causing them to voluntarily choose to do as he wills is not philosophical.
It is attested to throughout Scripture.
Review the many Scriptures given which show it.
I loved the majority of the OP till you had. . .connections out of scripture that dont apply to the text[/quote]
Oh, but upon examination they most certainly do apply to the text.
That God judicially blinds, deafens (Lk 8:10) and hardens (Ro 11:25) is the testimony of Scripture.
That God holds men guilty of their judicial blindness, deafness and hardness is likewise the testimony of Scripture.
For it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.
Sorry you don't like that. . .but pleased that you loved the majority of the OP.